[Help] Creation of a contract according to Jake Stratton-Kent Grimorium Verum

[MorganBlack]

I can tell you have a good head on your shoulder, SeekerPS. Kudos to you for grabbing the ritual bull by the horns.

 

[cormundum]

Even in the key of solomon, offerings are given. Read the description of Paymon, and Belial, in the description of malphas it’s advised not to do it, and there is a complete chapter on the nature of the offerings

They are recommended against by Agrippa. The chapter in the Key explicitly states that it is only for operations "where necessary." It wouldn't have anything to do with the bulk of the work of the Key, which has to do with the pentacles, and might even be a simple aside that has nothing to do with the rest of the system.

 

[MorganBlack]

Juratus is pretty late, you might be thinking of Hygromanteia. Also, if I recall, Juratus is also pretty unworkable, with two altars. Verum is very workable and effective for dirty medieval demon magic, and aligns easily with New World spirit practices, of which I am a part.

 

[Faria]

And second, making a statue is payment due to a service provided.

Which is not required or helpful. The conjuration process is not exactly transactional. You don't need to give the spirit anything, and doing so puts you at a disadvantage.

Referring again to the Red Dragon evocation script, the ritual being based on the Verum method, there is nothing at all about giving anything to the spirit of your own. The spirit demands a tax to be returned from what it provides, and it demands that the pact be made available to anyone who uses the names and seals and not just whoever owns that specific copy of the book. What the spirit gets from that process is access to other people. It doesn't need or want statues and incense, gifts of beer or blood or wine or anything, it's after people willing to put their whole lives on the line for its sake.

 

[cormundum]

Juratus is pretty late, you might be thinking of Hygromanteia. Also, if I recall, Juratus is also pretty unworkable, with two altars.

You don't know what you're talking about. Enjoy.

 

[MorganBlack]

Okay, cormundum. Sure. Good one.

 

[Lurker]

@SeekerPS I've never worked with demons, but you posted this video in another thread and I watched it with great interest:

At about 9:52 into the video, Alexander quotes Skinner agreeing with Iamblichus's claim that demons have no understanding of truth or falsity. If that's true, is any demon even capable of giving you the winning lottery numbers?

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you want, this is intended as food for thought.

 

[SeekerPS]

@SeekerPS I've never worked with demons, but you posted this video in another thread and I watched it with great interest:

At about 9:52 into the video, Alexander quotes Skinner agreeing with Iamblichus's claim that demons have no understanding of truth or falsity. If that's true, is any demon even capable of giving you the winning lottery numbers?

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you want, this is intended as food for thought.

There are also spirits that must teach philosophy and other sciences. the idea is that the triangle is a tool to make them say true things. Although i agree with some parts of the video, those spirits cannot be completely irrational or they couldn’t be charged with a task. They are easily impressed, but they must understand concepts since they can take charges from the magician.

 

[MorganBlack]

I do agree that the magician must provide mythic structure, as least in terms of the ritual. The ritual process is how we interact with them (until they become shamanic allies). "Lower" does not mean evil. But while they are not evil, believe me, they not cuddly Wiccan pagan gods, either.

In Vodou, we'd call them "hot" Petwo spirits, but they are not "wild" because they are "in the house". BTW, in Vodou. St. Michael ("San Mee-Shell") is also Petwo, something consider, and I will leave it to say Verum operates in a Solar Pantheistic worldview that can be expressed in both pre-Christian and Christian mythic forms.

Petwo spirits need extra handling because they work fast and are tempestuous. And from the more timid, churchy Christian worldview, it is also not 100% wrong to consider them dangerous. The Underworld always has an element of the vampire, because it includes death. Take a cleansing bath afterwards. Not against the daimon you are calling, but other things that live there. The knife is good to have. Again , not against the daimon, but other things that are found there that are not your friend.

I have been dealing with them for several decades and that video... and while I like Alexander Eth , he is 90% off target there. But these fearful Solomonic magicians, they are also not totally wrong. I agree you must manifest divinity, but that is true for all of your life. And what divinity look like may not always represent some asshole in a circle yelling at entities they feel are their spiritual subordinates... unless you go all the way and go the Dr. Skinner route. But I get the feeling on the back end he is not sharing,he is far more personal and close with them.... his "Golden Horde" as he affectionately calls them, and named his publishing house after.

 

[SeekerPS]

People tend to overestimate how harshly he mistreats the spirits, but skinner himself has said that he just uses a carrot and stick approach. And that doesn’t work without a carrot. Yes he is a bit harsh at the beginning but after tamed they can be treated with respect

 

[MorganBlack]

Neat! Exactly! I have been saying the same thing for years. The magician is a tricksy. What some people see as slavish devotion to spirits may actually be, sometimes, at the right moment, a seduction of spirits by humans.

 

[Vlasan]

Hello! Can you help me understand the Verum ritual? I do a lot of Goetia, in Skinner style, but I've never used Verum.
For example, I have all the tools, how do I do the ritual?

1. Summon one of the three chieftains.
2. Summon the dukes under them.
3. Appeal to the target spirit.
Where is Scirlin?..
Sorry for my English, it's not my native language

 

[SeekerPS]

Hello! Can you help me understand the Verum ritual? I do a lot of Goetia, in Skinner style, but I've never used Verum.
For example, I have all the tools, how do I do the ritual?

1. Summon one of the three chieftains.
2. Summon the dukes under them.
3. Appeal to the target spirit.
Where is Scirlin?..
Sorry for my English, it's not my native language

Its very similar to any goetic procedure. First you consacrate the circle, say some prayers (i think the GG said the lithany of the saints) then you conjure the demon by the three powers. Its very straightforward.

scirilin should be called before the operation and you use its sign or sigil as a lamen

 

[MorganBlack]

Hi

The Verum system is a little bit different than the a Lesser Key, et.all.

1. You usually don't summon the Three Chiefs. The work is done with the "lower" spirits, calling the Chiefs for authority and blessing.
2. The three chiefs each have Deputies. You call the Chief, to ask them to send their Deputy.
3. I say call them and make an appeal. Butter them up with praise and snacks. Spam then till they get the job done. Keep your end of the bargain. Seriously.
4. Scirlin is the intermediary and gate keeper of the system. He may also be Lucifuge Rofocale , Tarchimache, Duke Syrach. You also do not have to call him, if you have a crossroads intercessor who opens the gate of Hell / Hades.

For a practical interpretation of Verum with minimal fluff, Rob Rider Hill's pamphlet is a decent intro:

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

Myself, Jake, Rob Rider Hill, Rufus Opus, Jason Miller and all ex-OTO , and we will all probably tell you to do the A.A. system and learn to meditate. But mostly becasue that is what we did.

In my experience using Verum the manifestations are different as well, they are more physical, solid, and darker. Less trippy and psychedelic than the Lesser Key system. Some caution is warranted , but outright fear is not useful.

You are the resident god of your personal universe , as we all are, and you are opening a way for them into it. Their manifestation will be half you, and colored by your soul's expression and personality. So cultivating kindness, compassion, and calmness ahead of time goes a long way.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

So, after reading JSK Grimorium Verum, he outlines the importance of the contract, adorned with the sigils of the spirits one desires to make contract with. On the blue cover grimoires, i have only seen one mention of a contract in the grand grimoire or red dragon (Or spanish San Cipriano) in the conjuration of Lucifugo Rofocale



Then, supposedly, the spirit turns it down, but then you insist and he will ask for something completly different

Althoug romantic, i guess a contract so vague and open would not be advisible to any practitioner. has anyone worked with written contracts? what clauses do you use?

If for example, i would want to have money or find treasures, as is the case in the GG, wouldn't it be better to specify to at least not hurt you and your loved ones?

Pacts are a silly idea. I've never used them. What use is offering a spirit a cigar or whisky or money? Do the Abramelin, you will then have power over all spirits through your HGA. I have had spirits refuse a request but then after a very long argument we come to an agreement that is fine with me; no contracts, no offerings, no threats to destroy the entity, simply a reminder to the spirit that as I am an Adept they are obliged to help me.

 

[SeekerPS]

Pacts are a silly idea. I've never used them. What use is offering a spirit a cigar or whisky or money? Do the Abramelin, you will then have power over all spirits through your HGA. I have had spirits refuse a request but then after a very long argument we come to an agreement that is fine with me; no contracts, no offerings, no threats to destroy the entity, simply a reminder to the spirit that as I am an Adept they are obliged to help me.

Don’t have the time nor patience for HGA

 

[Vlasan]

Thanks for the answers.
What are your thoughts on the fact that we need to burn the paper with the spirit symbols at the end of the ritual? What is the meaning of this?
During the ritual, we receive confirmation from the demon, and its consent to work with us. After which, we burn this document... Why? It would be logical to save it, and use it in further rituals with this spirit.
I can understand why this was done in the past, when we were dealing with possible persecution from the church. But now?

 

[SeekerPS]

Thanks for the answers.
What are your thoughts on the fact that we need to burn the paper with the spirit symbols at the end of the ritual? What is the meaning of this?
During the ritual, we receive confirmation from the demon, and its consent to work with us. After which, we burn this document... Why? It would be logical to save it, and use it in further rituals with this spirit.
I can understand why this was done in the past, when we were dealing with possible persecution from the church. But now?

Where did you see to burn it? i don't see where it says that in JSK True grimoire

 

[Vlasan]

Where did you see to burn it? i don't see where it says that in JSK True grimoire

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

At the end of this book the author writes about burning a document with symbols.
And Joseph H Peterson Grimorium Verum, say it burn on page 35

P.S. I like your idea about the lottery pact. I've never had a positive experience with that, but spirits have given me money in other ways. I've heard a lot about how in Asian countries, getting winning numbers from ghosts is a popular idea. So why not try it with demons? I hope it works out for you!

 

[SeekerPS]

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

At the end of this book the author writes about burning a document with symbols.
And Joseph H Peterson Grimorium Verum, say it burn on page 35

P.S. I like your idea about the lottery pact. I've never had a positive experience with that, but spirits have given me money in other ways. I've heard a lot about how in Asian countries, getting winning numbers from ghosts is a popular idea. So why not try it with demons? I hope it works out for you!

I don't have that one

Post automatically merged: Jul 18, 2025

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

At the end of this book the author writes about burning a document with symbols.
And Joseph H Peterson Grimorium Verum, say it burn on page 35

P.S. I like your idea about the lottery pact. I've never had a positive experience with that, but spirits have given me money in other ways. I've heard a lot about how in Asian countries, getting winning numbers from ghosts is a popular idea. So why not try it with demons? I hope it works out for you!

Anyway I couldn’t edit my other post, if a mod can merge it, no problem. The thing about burning can be something akin the destruction of a sigil in some way, to make it more of an unconscious knowledge. At least that would be my interpretation