Daoist Chinese wizards were invoking Saint George

[MorganBlack]

Everybody:

 

[Asteriskos]

Wow, eclecticism is pervasive!

 

[MorganBlack]

Behold! Syncratism!

And this rather fits here, and puts a different spin on things.

Western weebs: "Ooooh! The power of Asian magic! Chi-balls!"

Meanwhile, in Asia: "Ooooh! the magic of the Western spiritual systems!!"

Japan imported Western systems, along with Freemasonry.
The great Zen teacher D. T. Suzuki translated mystic Emanuel Swedenborg, calling him "the Buddha of the North."
And they got paranormal magazines and Colin Wilson's excellent book 'The Occult. '
Schoolkids got notebook Ouija boards.
Oh, the irony.

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[Soror Epihania]

Wisdom and power are wisdom and power, whatever religious, cultural, or social context they're nested in. I'm not surprised that Chinese and Japanese practitioners have integrated Christian and western esoteric stuff. It's a reminder of the richness that western esoteric traditions still hold once we stop yearning after 'exotic'-seeming knowledge and take up what's been left to us.

 

[Asteriskos]

All this was inevitable! There's even a magazine that more or less wants you to believe that, called "Cosmopolitan"!
What was once a Planet is now a Village, the cross-pollination is Unbelievable?

 

[MorganBlack]

Yep yep. Not to flatten all myths into bland universalism, but you go back not that long ago and we're the same people, but who have forgotten.

See the Sanskrit chair at Harvard, Prof Michael Witzel's book:

The Origins of the World's Mythologies

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St. George, is the same mythic patterns for Mars we all tell each other about.

Prof Witzel reconstructed the timeline for us starting with an Out of Africa mythological system dating back 100,000 years, mapping our shared mythic story: Father Heaven/Mother Earth, the separation of sky and earth, the flood, the final destruction . He argues these features survive today in all major religions. They resonant for us all.

And the Thor/St. George parallel is well documented. In the Scandinavian North, St. George's fight the dragon at the same time commemorated Thor's fight with the Midgard Serpent. .The Slavic St. George, the Slavic god Gerov -- whose feast fell around St. George's Day - was explicitly said to be "called Mars in Latin."

The old Mars pattern - and none of the astrological "high gods" - never go away. They get a baptism and a new name under a new cosmic understanding.

 

[Asteriskos]

Interestingly, parallels like that have fascinated me for a long time. There was more going on in antiquity that scholarship has yet to reveal,
"If", the scholars recognize something of esoteric value for what it is. Sadly, that's not always the case, at least at first.

 

[goldenprawn]

I applaud their broad-mindedness.

 

[Firetree]

Chinese wizards invoke St George ??? Thats the guy that killed a dragon , yeah ? And did you know how the REAL Chinese 'wizards' feel about dragons ?

I can't say this is a 'happy marriage ' !

 

[Veracity]

I mean, if it works, it works? People have always traded in everything, including beliefs

 

[MorganBlack]

I can't say this is a 'happy marriage ' !

That's not how that myths works here. You have to find the part of reality the different cultural myths are the poetry that pre-scientific people used to map reality.

The Dragon of the West , in the Christian tradition is a symbol of primordial chaos like the Egyptian Apep (also spelled Apophis) and maps almost exactly onto the Leviathan/Tiamat/Satan symbolic pattern.

It / he (?) is eternal enemy of Ra, the sun god, and the thing the Solar Hero slays. The ancient Egyptian called this Isfet - chaos, disorder, falsehood, destruction. We might throw in mental illness here, so the Dragon becomes entropy, disorder, chaos, de-coherence , irrationality, falling apart, hysteria, madness, losing oneself. The illness is the issue, not the symbols.

But in Chinese Taoism, the dragon is the opposite, and is the symbol of heaven's order itself - that brings rain, that winds through the clouds in the pattern of the Tao, that the emperor claims as his symbol. All fine. They are allowed their own symbolic language in their own culture.

That said, are some some destructive dragons in Chinese mythology , and Western myth occasionally has wise or neutral dragon, but the main archetypal function is the one above.

 

[Firetree]

Indeed ... they ( Chinese dragons ) can be destructive but that is usually the result of inappropriate interaction , making them angry or neglecting them ... I'd say invoking St. George might do it .

There is also the issue of the connection with sexual energy ; the traditional Chinese system didnt have the 'shame' that the west did about that .... which might have something to do with the two different views of dragons (in the main ) .

 

[MorganBlack]

We have the same ideas in the West but people have lost touch with our own stories.

It is the same idea in the Western symbolic system (Quick note: I am also not picking on Anglo so-called "esoteric" or repackaging as "transgressive" inversions of this story. )

See Canadian and Orthodox Christian Jonathan Pageau. (Not recruiting here, btw)

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Mythically Heaven and Earth represent distinct ontological tiers or cosmic categories - as potential and form, spirit and matter, the divine/celestial and the earthly. The Giants and Titans are the chaotic offspring of bad or "unbalanced" unison of Heaven and Earth. Giants are dis-proportionate monsters. ).

These are just all our myths and represents the collapse of the cosmic order when the categories of "higher" (heavenly, transcendent, structural) and "lower" (earthly, chaotic, potential) are scrambled, resulting in chaos, disordered as madness and hubris, and masquerading as structure, or as raw power lacking divine measure and proportion.. These are the" Giants", or the "Titans "or the Qlipothic "Shells" of the Kabbalah. See the floor of the Vault of the Adepti in the GD where there is the Dragon. Same symbolic tradition here.

 

[NIHILFIRMVM]

严格来说，这不是道士。
先写结论
事实是这样的：
中国的道教派别分多个传承体系，福建闽南地区的道教体系一般被称之为闾山派。直到近年来之前他们不属于传统道教谱系范畴，而被视为一种异端，因为他们的术法体系源自当地民俗传统和传统古典巫术，并与外来文化融合（比如佛教密宗瑜伽派），敬奉对象杂乱，包括很多地方性神祇，比如陈靖姑与闾山九郎。
《吉思咒》发现自霞浦摩尼教文书中（该文书系列主要包涵三个地方，以福建宁德霞浦县为中心的霞浦文书，以及屏南地区的屏南文书），属于摩尼教入华以后在浙闽地区融合佛教、道教传统形成的教派，俗称明教。
由于多种原因，摩尼教在会昌法难（公元840年至846年）期间受到迫害，转入浙闽地区活动。同样遭到迫害的还有佛教、祆教和基督教聂斯托利派，也就是景教。
重点来了。
通过比对粟特语、回鹘语、叙利亚语《圣乔治受难记》写本，学者发现《吉思咒》是《圣乔治受难记》的汉译本末尾部分，是不完整的残片，其内容如下（按原稿断句换行方式转写）：

志心信礼：正智夷数和，从梵天界，殄
妖魔，腾空如鸽下，火焰起流波，神通验；
拂林国，圣无过，应化河沙数，天地及
森罗，将忍辱界度怛婆。我今稽
首礼：皈命末尸诃。施慈悲，恕我等，
罪消魔。愿今夜消灾障，降吉祥。

还有一个略有不同的版本，如下：

志心信礼：活命夷数和，从梵天界，殄
妖魔，腾空如鸽下，火焰起流波，神通
验；拂林国，圣无过，应化河沙数，天地
及森罗，将忍辱戒度怛婆。我今稽首礼：
皈命末尸诃。恕我等诸愆咎，尽消魔。愿
今夜荐亡灵，生净土。

然而《吉思咒》的这段唱词不见于其他各类语言的摩尼教文献，当源自景教文书。结合其他依据，王媛媛推测，会昌法难以后，有景教人士同样逃入浙江、福建地区，最终被当地明教社团吞并、吸纳，当地明教信众以及道士在逐渐丧失自己作为摩尼教众的身份认同的同时，通过宗教仪式将其传承下来——仅仅作为仪式中的一小部分唱词。
我看到有人说屠龙与中国文化的关系，很好的思考，但是，一，中国在民俗故事中不忌讳杀龙；二，圣乔治屠龙的故事在中国没有流传下来。
另附，霞浦摩尼教科仪文本之《乐山堂神记》节选，以供参考该地区的崇拜对象名录：

廿九都上万桃源境普度后山堂，七月十五。
太上本师教主摩尼光佛，电光王佛，夷数如来，净风、先意如来，天地化身卢舍那佛；北方鎭天真武菩萨，法相、惠明如来，九天贞明大圣，普庵祖师，观音、势至二大菩萨；太上三元三品三官大帝——上元一品天官锡福紫微大帝、中元二品地官赦罪淸虚大帝、下元三品水官解厄洞阴大帝，三天教主张大真人，三衙教主灵宝天尊，敕封护国太后元君，本坛明门都统威显灵相，感应兴福雷使真君，济南法主四九真人，移活吉思大圣，贞明法院三十六员天将、七十二大吏兵，雄猛四梵天王，俱孚元帅，嗪皎明使。

↑If u want，u can translate this text into English to read

严格来说，这不是道士。
先写结论：
它是中国东南地区明教（摩尼教）在丧失身份认同后所形成的道士团体通过历史巧合所保存下来的景教文书，但他们并不清楚这件事，也缺乏主观成分。
事实是这样的：
中国的道教派别分多个传承体系，福建闽南地区的道教体系一般被称之为闾山派。直到近年来之前他们不属于传统道教谱系范畴，而被视为一种异端，因为他们的术法体系源自当地民俗传统和传统古典巫术，并与外来文化融合（比如佛教密宗瑜伽派），敬奉对象杂乱，包括很多地方性神祇，比如陈靖姑与闾山九郎。
《吉思咒》发现自霞浦摩尼教文书中（该文书系列主要包涵三个地方，以福建宁德霞浦县为中心的霞浦文书，以及屏南地区的屏南文书），属于摩尼教入华以后在浙闽地区融合佛教、道教传统形成的教派，俗称明教。
由于多种原因，摩尼教在会昌法难（公元840年至846年）期间受到迫害，转入浙闽地区活动。同样遭到迫害的还有佛教、祆教和基督教聂斯托利派，也就是景教。
重点来了。
通过比对粟特语、回鹘语、叙利亚语《圣乔治受难记》写本，学者发现《吉思咒》是《圣乔治受难记》的汉译本末尾部分，是不完整的残片，其内容如下（按原稿断句换行方式转写）：

志心信礼：正智夷数和，从梵天界，殄
妖魔，腾空如鸽下，火焰起流波，神通验；
拂林国，圣无过，应化河沙数，天地及
森罗，将忍辱界度怛婆。我今稽
首礼：皈命末尸诃。施慈悲，恕我等，
罪消魔。愿今夜消灾障，降吉祥。

还有一个略有不同的版本，如下：

志心信礼：活命夷数和，从梵天界，殄
妖魔，腾空如鸽下，火焰起流波，神通
验；拂林国，圣无过，应化河沙数，天地
及森罗，将忍辱戒度怛婆。我今稽首礼：
皈命末尸诃。恕我等诸愆咎，尽消魔。愿
今夜荐亡灵，生净土。

然而《吉思咒》的这段唱词不见于其他各类语言的摩尼教文献，当源自景教文书。结合其他依据，王媛媛推测，会昌法难以后，有景教人士同样逃入浙江、福建地区，最终被当地明教社团吞并、吸纳，当地明教信众以及道士在逐渐丧失自己作为摩尼教众的身份认同的同时，通过宗教仪式将其传承下来——仅仅作为仪式中的一小部分唱词。
我看到有人说屠龙与中国文化的关系，很好的思考，但是，一，中国在民俗故事中不忌讳杀龙；二，圣乔治屠龙的故事在中国没有流传下来。
另附，霞浦摩尼教科仪文本之《乐山堂神记》节选，以供参考该地区的崇拜对象名录：

廿九都上万桃源境普度后山堂，七月十五。
太上本师教主摩尼光佛，电光王佛，夷数如来，净风、先意如来，天地化身卢舍那佛；北方鎭天真武菩萨，法相、惠明如来，九天贞明大圣，普庵祖师，观音、势至二大菩萨；太上三元三品三官大帝——上元一品天官锡福紫微大帝、中元二品地官赦罪淸虚大帝、下元三品水官解厄洞阴大帝，三天教主张大真人，三衙教主灵宝天尊，敕封护国太后元君，本坛明门都统威显灵相，感应兴福雷使真君，济南法主四九真人，移活吉思大圣，贞明法院三十六员天将、七十二大吏兵，雄猛四梵天王，俱孚元帅，嗪皎明使。

↑If u want，u can translate this text into English to read

我对上文我所写内容中漏写的“先写结论”部分做了补充，已通过回帖形式修订。
以及：《吉思咒》相关唱词在霞浦摩尼教仪式中的正式使用方式是超渡，也就是“指引亡魂”，而非祈求保佑。我想你们都误解了这点。
如果你们对这段文书感兴趣，我下次看见的时候可以写一份简要注解。

 

[Yazata]

If u want，u can translate this text into English to read

Type English. You clearly can

 

[NIHILFIRMVM]

输入英文。你显然可以

emmm，sry but……Should I need use AI to translate this text into English again？

 

[sukkot]

I grew up with Native American folk lore. When I finally read my mothers heritage story of the Cherokee(origin of red man translated by Daniel panther yates) connecting something that sounds extraordinarily like a Hebrew story it was exciting but when you go to connect the actual dots the only thing that seems universal is one group selling an unifying ideology(Mormons)(sitchin) but none of them have it. To me after many years of scholarship it feels like a vague inclining of memory likely from a prehistoric society and not a unified actual recollection of history.
So when someone says something like religions are stealing from each other. I’m not surprised. The popol vuh(south American heritage) is was almost a christian heritage when they came to the Americas and it may have been their attempt to assimilate like they did with the poetic prose(christian fan-fic of the poetic edda of norse heritage). If the pompous text of the Nicholas notovich is of actual documents weather it is a later work of the 3d-11th century it pollutes the separatists of religious practices world wide. Hasn’t that been how it has been from the beginning of our historical society now?
As someone who grew up in a stupid christian hebraic wannabe offshoot, in my experience, everytime “a scholar” finds a link bridging religions it’s a christian trying to convert other people so they can ‘do gods work’ and therefore assure their place in heaven.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yeah, Universal Syncretism can be done well, or done badly.

All Deities/Spirits Are One" Universal Syncretism is the bad version - basically treating saints, angels, grimoire spirits, and persons as plug-and-play masks for ancient pagan gods (like claiming "The Virgin Mary is just Isis" or "St. Michael is just Apollo"), and ignoring that Folk Catholic and grimoire operations treat them as distinct, autonomous entities with their own covenants.

Oh, wait! Did you mean in the other direction?

In Prof. Michael Witzel's massive comparative an academic study The Origins of World Mythologies show us "good syncretism " isn't about flattening every distinct mythic character nto a generic blob because, " ike, it's all energy, man." He maps out how human populations migrated, interacted, and translated equivalent cosmic roles across linguistic and cultural boundaries while also respecting the specific, distinct identity of the entities involved.

Similarly, the main original of syncratizers of Western Magic in ancient Alexandria, the Hellenistic Greek, did very something very similar with Interpretatio Romana / Graeca. So when the Greeks encountered Egyptian deities they interpreted those gods as versions of their own. They mapped functional equivalents - equating Thoth with Hermes because both are gods of wisdom, writing, and liminality, but they did not erase their distinct identities. They created hybrid cults (like Hermes Trismegistus or Serapis) through deliberate theological engineering, keeping strict rituals, specific priesthoods, and distinct mythic narratives for each. This is just the classical Western poetic-mythic mindset in play.

 

[NIHILFIRMVM]

Chinese wizards invoke St George ??? Thats the guy that killed a dragon , yeah ? And did you know how the REAL Chinese 'wizards' feel about dragons ?

I can't say this is a 'happy marriage ' !

Put simply, this is just a fragment of a Nestorian Christian text that was carried among Manichaean materials and, unbeknownst to those who used it, was employed in the form of chanted lyrics as part of a localized Lüshan Daoist ritual to release the souls of the dead.

Wang Yuanyuan argues that this text indicates that during the Huichang Persecution in the late Tang, some Nestorian Christians moved south into southeastern China together with Manichaeism, and were eventually absorbed by a Daoicized Manichaeism.

Within Daoism, the Lüshan school is regarded as a heterodoxy; until recent years, its members were not allowed to participate in national Daoist rites such as the Luotian Dajiao.

 

[nunaphael]

Yeah, Universal Syncretism can be done well, or done badly.

All Deities/Spirits Are One" Universal Syncretism is the bad version - basically treating saints, angels, grimoire spirits, and persons as plug-and-play masks for ancient pagan gods (like claiming "The Virgin Mary is just Isis" or "St. Michael is just Apollo"), and ignoring that Folk Catholic and grimoire operations treat them as distinct, autonomous entities with their own covenants.

Oh, wait! Did you mean in the other direction?

In Prof. Michael Witzel's massive comparative an academic study The Origins of World Mythologies show us "good syncretism " isn't about flattening every distinct mythic character nto a generic blob because, " ike, it's all energy, man." He maps out how human populations migrated, interacted, and translated equivalent cosmic roles across linguistic and cultural boundaries while also respecting the specific, distinct identity of the entities involved.

Similarly, the main original of syncratizers of Western Magic in ancient Alexandria, the Hellenistic Greek, did very something very similar with Interpretatio Romana / Graeca. So when the Greeks encountered Egyptian deities they interpreted those gods as versions of their own. They mapped functional equivalents - equating Thoth with Hermes because both are gods of wisdom, writing, and liminality, but they did not erase their distinct identities. They created hybrid cults (like Hermes Trismegistus or Serapis) through deliberate theological engineering, keeping strict rituals, specific priesthoods, and distinct mythic narratives for each. This is just the classical Western poetic-mythic mindset in play.

This seems like a good chance for me to ask and still be on topic about it, how do you feel about the syncretism you see in authors like Joseph Campbell who draw on Jungian psychology to try and analyze every cosmology and mythology through the same psychoanalytical lens? Do you feel that's done poorly or is that acceptable? I'm deeply curious because Jungian psychology is everywhere in modern occultism and I've seen very mixed opinions about whether it's mostly useful or can become kind of a hindrance and possibly even a dangerous worldview to work within. Joseph Campbell in particular, in his book The Hero With A Thousand Faces, is basically turning every single mythology into a "monomyth" and then channeling it mostly through Jung.