Demons

[zamradiel]

Hello,

I don't personally subscribe to the idea of "demons" as evil. They're simply non-human intelligences. If the mind isn't free from dogma, any approach will carry fear-and when you come from fear, things tend to go badly.

Having worked primarily with several of the so-called "demons" from the Lesser Key of Solomon (Goetia) - such as Belial. I've found it best to approach these entities from a stance of dialogue and respect, rather than containment or attempts to "bind" them through borrowed divine names (IHVH, etc.).

Goetic spirits are largely transactional in nature: keep your end of the bargain, and they'll keep theirs.

-J.

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

 

[silencewaits]

(quote, don't know where from...) Who are you? Angel to some, demon to others...

The full quote is, "Explorers in the further regions of experience. Demons to some. Angels to others." It was said by the Hell Priest (or his more common by-name Pinhead) in the cinematic adaptation of The Hellbound Heart by Clive Barker, titled Hellraiser. It's a pretty well-known movie franchise. What is evil from a human point of view may be natural to that of a non-human being; they may not even consider their actions, they may have an entirely different faculty of thought or none at all. They may derive from a recess of existence, that is the whole of existence, that is horrifying or directly harmful to the ones we inhabit. Just as an entirely innocuous deity may have been demonized by Judeo-Christian religious ideology, so too may people make the mistake of thinking there are no demons--just beings who have been misunderstood. An angel can be a terrible thing to behold as well, as angelos (ἄγγελος) means messenger. Just what message might something from the Outside have to deliver, and would we be able to comprehend or survive its arrival? Food for thought.

 

[St. Stephen]

I would sooner fear any human before I would fear a demon (Spirit). My interactions with them have been much more pleasant than almost any I’ve had with people.
Im not saying you shouldn’t be prepared to defend yourself. Of course that’s important no matter who you’re dealing with.

what I’m saying is that starting off an interaction with a spirit with threats of duress is NOT the way to go.
especially not when you are seeking the spirits help.
you’ll find I’m not the only person out there who takes this approach to demons & has favorable results.
i guess it’s a miracle we havent all been destroyed or possessed by these evil wicked beings (sarcasm)

I can sympathize with the point you're making here, although the classical grimoires seem to be pretty contrarian to this mentality and approach. Stephen Skinner especially would argue that you as the magician should be emphasizing the level of punishment and demise if a bargain is not upheld as a means of exercising control which a proper magician should be doing with any infernal spirit. I think it is fair to say that there's a delicate balance that has to be achieved between compelling, protecting yourself, and also not being a complete ass hole when conducting operations with them.

 

[Pboat]

This got interesting, thank you all for your replies.

I view demons as very necessary higher beings, and the learnt wisdom I've received has been:
"What they have done to you?"

It's an important point to clear out religious nonsense out of your Spiritual system.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

I can sympathize with the point you're making here, although the classical grimoires seem to be pretty contrarian to this mentality and approach. Stephen Skinner especially would argue that you as the magician should be emphasizing the level of punishment and demise if a bargain is not upheld as a means of exercising control which a proper magician should be doing with any infernal spirit. I think it is fair to say that there's a delicate balance that has to be achieved between compelling, protecting yourself, and also not being a complete ass hole when conducting operations with them.

I know im familiar with Skinner I just recently have gotten into hermetic cosmology and what that essentially describes is that when our spirits came down into physical manifestation, we received a portion of the powers of the planetary spheres. the spirits of the spheres and even the sub-lunar or terrestrial spirits are like our coworkers and cocreators. they work with us because they love us and we’re all siblings in the Divine Family. Also they love us because we are the only beings who bear the image of the creator.

i realize not everyone agrees with this sort of worldview, but thats fine with me. Everyone can believe and do what thou wilt.

So my view of spirits is just a lot different. I dont think they are anything to fear. Protect yourself just as you would in ANY scenario. You always have to be ready and able to defend yourself in case shit goes sideways in both the mundane and spiritual worlds, so i agree with that.
you need both material AND spiritual protection at all times. Thats just a good rule to live by.

 

[zyfrtheFirst]

As far as I’m concerned demons are not the most powerful beings in all of existence. They were created before Man according the narrative, but they are still Other creations. They are not Gods. Chaos Magic, Ceremonial High Magic, Norse magic, are all higher in order than demon magic.

72 Demons in the Ars Goetia. Dukes and Marquesses each with Legions under them. Each with their own nature, the have the power to influence this world by revealing parts of man. The want for fame, military overreaching, obsession with science - these are their powers.

 

[darkdevotion1]

From what I understand all the big religions recognize and fear demons. however does that make demons bad? misunderstood?

 

[julio]

The concept of evil, antagonistic entities is much older than Christianity, call them as you will. It certainly exists in African religions, too numerous to even name. And it certainly exists in the African Diaspora in the New World, contrary to what many occultists of renown have falsely stated in recent years.

Heterodox views of Christian dogma which allow for one to benefit in some way from said entities, namely what goes on in solomonic manuscripts, are also not a Christian phenomenon. The same sort of views exist in three dispora religions that I’m a part of. One might argue though based on looking at how both solomonic manuscripts and said diaspora religions prescribe, that they need to be approached with great caution. Again, this contradicts the impressions that are commonly passed by occultists who aren’t intimate with said religions.

All of this is to say that there’s no tradition or “friendlier” approach that will mitigate the difficulties of working with certain entities. For certain variations of the word “working”, of course. Because it’s one thing to decide to worship them, and another entirely to make contact.

 

[Morell]

The concept of evil, antagonistic entities is much older than Christianity, call them as you will. It certainly exists in African religions, too numerous to even name. And it certainly exists in the African Diaspora in the New World, contrary to what many occultists of renown have falsely stated in recent years.

Heterodox views of Christian dogma which allow for one to benefit in some way from said entities, namely what goes on in solomonic manuscripts, are also not a Christian phenomenon. The same sort of views exist in three dispora religions that I’m a part of. One might argue though based on looking at how both solomonic manuscripts and said diaspora religions prescribe, that they need to be approached with great caution. Again, this contradicts the impressions that are commonly passed by occultists who aren’t intimate with said religions.

All of this is to say that there’s no tradition or “friendlier” approach that will mitigate the difficulties of working with certain entities. For certain variations of the word “working”, of course. Because it’s one thing to decide to worship them, and another entirely to make contact.

What is your religion?

 

[julio]

What is your religion?

I’m an obeahman. Have also received Makaya, and I’m a “priest”, for lack a better word, in a lineage of Quimbanda.

 

[Xuchilbara]

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

I perceive it as fascinating.

I don't believe them. In many cases, what is 'good' and 'evil' is entirely subjective or relative. Of course, I don't really believe in good/evil dichotomy. I do, however, believe in things being healthy or unhealthy. I use "good" or "evil" as symbols sometimes when talking to regular folk, because I understand its symbolic usage.

The most accurate thing... I kid you not.... Is

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. (I like to use academia on it a lot.) They fall into three types:

1. Spirits of the dead
2. Anthropomorphic spirits that typically serve gods and are sometimes used to punish people. (Lilitu, Galu, Lilu, Pazuzu, etc)
3. The ones that are so inhuman and powerful, that they are equals or have god status, anyway. (Apep, Lamashtu, some Asura or Jotun, etc.)

I tend to likewise pull from many Buddhist and Hindu sources. But I really loved how Mesopotamia broke down the concepts.