[Opinion] Does placebo/nocebo have a place in magick?

[Vandheer]

To give an example for a better understanding: Lets say a person manages to cure themselves from all kinds of pain in 30 seconds or less, does this person genuinely capable of healing? Or is it placebo? OR, is placebo/nocebo a vital part of magickal acts?

What if the person managed to cure someone else? Is the one being cured going through placebo?

By extension, what kind of an experience would you (you only, because if someone else doesn't wanna believe you they simply won't) call an undeniable proof?

If I wanted two bucks and got that is it just happenstance? What about 2 dollars and 13 cents?

Apologies in advance if my English is confusing you guys.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Placebo/nocebo is magic. The effects are undeniable (see "The Expectation Effect" by Dave Robson) but the mechanism is clearly magical.

What we tend to forget is that, to quote John Constantine: "I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic. Any c*** can do it."

If you managed to cure someone else, that's more complicated. I would say that you ended up in the sequence of events with a version of the person that was cured, but there's a whole book behind that (see sig below)

The undeniable proof: Imagine you met someone who had no idea about sex. So you carefully explain sex as best you can, but at the end, they turn round and tell you that they don't believe you. Ultimately, magic is one of those things that has to be experienced.

As for the two bucks/two bucks 13 cents, this is why I describe magic as the engineering of coincidence.

Also, your English is very clear and well spelled

 

[8Lou1]

i found that as a woman i have feelings that come from nowhere and i often dont understand them. not understanding makes me irritated and i get physical pains. was the sickness a placebo/fake idk. the only thing that seems to heal it, is making human connections and giving this nonsense thing a name. to me thats totally a fake thing getting cured by an other fake thing. still it works. and they call it healing, strange...

proof to me is when i almost go crazy cause every thought comes into being at the spot. as within, so without. like a fountain they speak my mind.

i like the coinkidink of finding things more then using magick for gaining objects. so i wouldnt know.

 

[Ziran]

is placebo/nocebo a vital part of magickal acts?

Is magic distinguishable from illusion?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Is magic distinguishable from illusion?

I would ask "is magic distinguishable from coincidence?"

 

[Yazata]

To give an example for a better understanding: Lets say a person manages to cure themselves from all kinds of pain in 30 seconds or less, does this person genuinely capable of healing? Or is it placebo? OR, is placebo/nocebo a vital part of magickal acts?

What if the person managed to cure someone else? Is the one being cured going through placebo?

By extension, what kind of an experience would you (you only, because if someone else doesn't wanna believe you they simply won't) call an undeniable proof?

If I wanted two bucks and got that is it just happenstance? What about 2 dollars and 13 cents?

Apologies in advance if my English is confusing you guys.

I recently rewatched the documentary Holy Hell. A very interesting part in it is exactly what you describe (kinda..).
The followers of the Guru there are so convinced of his powers that they have some psychedelic enlightening experience (or maybe the guy rubbed his fingers with some substance before touching them).

The power of belief really is the power of Magicka. Being able to convince yourself (or someone else / the whole universe) that you are capable of it.

 

[Ziran]

I would ask "is magic distinguishable from coincidence?"

I don't believe in coincidences. So, yes. I can distinguish. "Magic" for me is a catch-all term, very much like a "god of the gaps".

 

[Vandheer]

As for the two bucks/two bucks 13 cents, this is why I describe magic as the engineering of coincidence.

We have similar descriptions there, I call it 'probability manipulation' till this day, which both allows that some things will not happen no matter how much magick you throw it in and some will happen without it anyways. Though I have to say my descripltion lacks a certain soul, can't shake that feeling off.

Ultimately, magic is one of those things that has to be experienced.

But thats why I asked 'for you' in the first place, if someone won't believe you they just won't, so the question was personal.

Also, your English is very clear and well spelled

I am glad it is, thank you.

Is magic distinguishable from illusion?

No idea. Many traditions say this physical reality is an illusion. Is it? Or is it a reflection of something else entirely? I don't know.

The power of belief really is the power of Magicka.

But Yazata where do we seperate belief from pure delusion though, could I really split the moon in half Muhammad style if I could believe it hard?

The followers of the Guru there are so convinced of his powers that they have some psychedelic enlightening experience

Reminds me of a book that the author says one has to turn into a fanatic, and says its key to pretty much all powers that one can gain the path. By fanatic he refers to unwavering faith, IIRC.

 

[Yazata]

(I can't quote for some reason)

where do we seperate belief from pure delusion though, could I really split the moon in half Muhammad style if I could believe it hard?

Sanity. Magick doesn't break the rules of nature. So you will not be able to materialize cash in an empty box, or levitate, or raise the dead from their grave in physical form to bug your neighbors.

You can of course (try to) convince yourself that you are capable of splitting the moon, and if your followers are gullible enough you will be able to convince them as well - at least once every four weeks.

 

[Ancient]

does this person genuinely capable of healing?

Capable is a key term here. Can they recreate the act at will, at least sometimes? I'd consider a one-off scenario to be placebo or fluke, but consistency to represent capability. Placebo does easily fit into common definitions of magic (perception causing change), but capability or competency is another matter entirely.

 

[Vandheer]

Sanity. Magick doesn't break the rules of nature. So you will not be able to materialize cash in an empty box, or levitate, or raise the dead from their grave in physical form to bug your neighbors.

Good point on not breaking the rules of nature.

Can they recreate the act at will, at least sometimes?

The person in the question? Nearly everytime.

 

[Ancient]

The person in the question? Nearly everytime.

Then I'd call it capability. We could debate the nuances: Is it cured if the cause of the pain still exists/pain comes back again? Can we reliably identify an answer given that only one person is experiencing this pain (effect is not empirically verifiable)?

But I don't really give a fuck about the nuances, and I doubt anyone else does when their pain goes away either.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

@Vandheer ... I think there is a connection.

Example: I once petitioned Nine for extra money. I was advised by a certain someone to pound the 0avement looking for a job. Mind you, I'm a fifteen year veteran of information technology jobs, but turned Jan 2015 all I get are jobs any teenager can fill the position. I'm 54.


Anyway, mid winter and I'm pounding the pavement.

I ended up landing a McDonalds job. Not terribly thrilled. I was hoping to win a Daily4 Lotto or something.

It seemed to me to be a placebo in a way.

I think instead of just finding a hundred dollar bill on the ground or winning a lotto, you are instead given certain sway to get what your confidence is aiming for, which you may have got exactly that anyway.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

We have similar descriptions there, I call it 'probability manipulation' till this day

I used to call it that - but 'The Engineering of Coincidence" is a better book title

One of the key discoveries I made during my research is that you do not change the world - you end up in the version of the world which is changed - a bit like that two faces/vase picture

Post automatically merged: Nov 20, 2023

I ended up landing a McDonalds job. Not terribly thrilled. I was hoping to win a Daily4 Lotto or something.

and the good news is that your monkey's paw still has two wishes in it

 

[Ziran]

Is magic distinguishable from illusion?

No idea. Many traditions say this physical reality is an illusion. Is it? Or is it a reflection of something else entirely? I don't know.

Is physical reality an illusion?

Assuming that we are speaking of the same traditions, of the many adherents I have conversed with, I do not agree with the manner in which they describe the illusion ( note: often they use the word "delusion" in the pejorative, and describe those of us who disagree with them as ignorant ). My challenge to them is to drive a car in traffic on a highway with a high rate of speed with their eyes closed and let me know if the consequences are an illusion. Or, if they prefer, a good test would be repeated blunt force trauma to the knees and back.

Contemplating it rigorously requires strict definitions and consistent language. When I do this, the result is a defintion of reality which is a combination of many phenomena happening simultaneously. One of those phenomena is perception which is extremely accurate in many ways but also incomplete. The illusion that is described in many traditions is produced by the mind which auto-corrects its perception. The auto-correction in the mind is so rapid that an illusion is produced similar to frames on a movie or an old-fashoined flip-book ( are you familiar with that concept? a flip-book? ).

One version of "enlightenment" or a better word is "awakening" is produced when an individual realizes the auto-correction and begins to probe its underlying mechanics. Further stages of "enlightenment" or "awakening" are produced as the indivdual probes deeper and deeper inward and begins to understand how their own perception is being shaped ( present-progressive ) by their own expectations along with realizing the root of those expectations and the chain/web of causation that is producing the expectation as it is shaping each individual observation.

Modern science has in many ways confirmed what was discovered by the "enlightened" preachers, but, this in no way invalidates physical reality. Physical reality is producing the perception of objective phemonena which in turn is being produced by a vast amount of sensory data. The sensory data is coming from sensory organs which have evolved over millions of years to be extremely accurate. Lacking this accuracy is a death sentence. The primitive ancestors of the human race would never have been able to locate water, hunt for food, or avoid hazards without it.

Perception is a consequence of an on-going feedback loop which validates, invalidates, and refines each observation. At some point in human evolution, the brain's ability to refine the perception to match the environmental feedback became so accurate that it was able to predict the physical phenomena and react accurately before the event occured. The professional baseball player knows how to and where to swing the bat in order to hit a ball sent towards it traveling in excess of 70 mph. The swing begins long before the batter knows where the ball will be in relation to the the bat. The batter's brain observes and auto-corrects the swing of the bat in real-time based on the sensory feedback it is receiving mid-swing while the ball is traveling towards the batter. All of this originates with the corresponding survival advantages that accompany the brain's accurate predictions about the future location of the rapidly approaching tooth and claw of the predator or the rapidly fleeing neecessary meal which is the prey.

In the wild, the brain's capability of predictive perception based on reliable expectations is extremely useful, but it can become neurotic and produce a great deal of self-harm and harm to others outside of its original context. In the form of self-harm it is called needless self-induced suffering. In the form of harm to others it is a form of threat avoidance which often presents as out-group sterotyping, hatred, and bigotry. One of the potential benefits of enlightenment/awakening is a remedy for the neurotic self-harm and bigoted harm caused to others. Another benefit is a sort of mystical experience of oneness, connectedness, and overflowing love and appreciation for everything that exists when the awakening is occuring. Because of this, there is a strong incentive to pursue this experience, some become somewhat addicted to it. Many want to share it and preach about it not only from an self-less perspective, but also because while preaching about it in a small way the preacher re-experiences the awakening. If they can trigger the experience in another, they can experience it vicariously, while simultaneously reinforcing the ideas in their own mind, making it easier to repeat the mystical experience for themself through a meditative practice.

Just like almost anything, this is good ... until ... it isn't. When these teachings become "physical reality is an illusion" it's a sort of rebound effect. There is an illusion, but it's not physical reality. The illusion is the conflation of the predictive perception wiith physical reality. The pleasure and relief that some experience by untangling ( mindfulness ) the predictive expectations from perception of reality is so great, that many want to experience this 24/7. This is an incentive, among others, to reinterpret all of physical reality into an illusion. In this way, they are able to live in a sort of mystical reality.

"Physical reality is an illusion" It is an over correction which is extremely rewarding on multiple levels. Not only is it pleasurable to live all of one's waking hours in a perpetual mystical experience, but, there are also other rewards which ironically are themselves expectations. The strongest is an expectation of liberation and salvation from samsara which strongly corresponds to Christian aspirations. This in many ways explains the popularity of this sort of philosophy and practice in the western world. Because it's an expectation, which is counter to the original teachings, it's clear that the traditional teachings are being exaggerated and being stretched beyond their original intentions.

All in all, no, physical reality is not an illusion, but, it is highly rewarding to convince oneself that it is an illusion and to convince others. It is especially rewarding for a western adherent to a western audience.

 

[Roma]

cure themselves from all kinds of pain in 30 seconds or less, does this person genuinely capable of healing?

It may be better to start with the principle that the physical plane/body is an effect rather than a cause,

Then the question comes: what is the cause of the pain?

The human energy body is connected to a myriad of other energy bodies at all scales - from galaxies to bacteria. When a connected energy body alters its connection, the human body is changed.

For several years when running each morning I would get various pains. I would look inwardly at the site, find the connection and fix it - usually within a minute.

My left foot however was a problem. The pain would recur the next day. After a couple of years, a close relative contacted me after a long gap, and I saw that it was his connection that was causing the foot pain. He had been hanging on to me during those years.

I was then able to fix the energy problem and the foot has been fine since.

 

[Pyrokar]

Vandheer you are on a roll. Your latest posts all imply a good deal of thought behind them
whatever it is you're doing keep it up.
I don't have the IQ to keep up with the philosophy
But i do have the experience and knowledge of the question. it's a hard yes.
Placebo totally deserves a seat and respect in magick.
Tibetan mages in particular are well versed with it.

 

[Elementriloquist]

To answer your question, I would say no, placebo/nocebo has no place in magic, and I'd argue that you are supposed to test your believed abilities repeatedly in such a way that it eliminates the possibility of the result being a placebo/nocebo or coincidence.

What if the person managed to cure someone else? Is the one being cured going through placebo?

If they can legitimately cure at least two more people with the same condition, using the same methods, then it wouldn't be a placebo (of course that's if it's two more people consecutively, not two more successful cases with 10+ previous failed cases). If they only did it once, then it very well could be a placebo. They should have the desire to know the truth and experiment to find out.

One thing that always annoyed me in occult forums/communities, is that magic is usually spoken about as "one-offs". It's never treated as something that needs to be repeated in order to confirm your abilities. It's as if a lot of people don't believe that coincidences happen, or their egos are so huge that they'd rather attribute an outcome to their own being rather than to random chance.

"I did X ritual once and I got Y outcome"
I did a ritual to get a job and I got an interview for my dream job 2 months after and was hired
I did a ritual to curse someone and 1 year later they died in a freak accident
etc, etc, etc

The only question that comes to mind when I see stuff like this is - "Why would you even be satisfied with stopping there at a single result?"

I would never consider these things "magic" if I did it, I'd consider it me just getting lucky (coincidence), until I repeat those feats under similar conditions.


I think if you can actually perform a specific feat with magic, it should be as dependable as a lighter. There are conditions and actions required to make a lighter create a flame. It must have lighter fluid inside and you must press the button to cause the reactions that create the flame. You know that when the conditions and actions are met you will get a flame, and you can repeatedly test this and see the result yourself.

If a lighter could only create a flame for you once in your entire life of trying to use it, there would be no point in calling it a lighter. I look at magic the same way. If you can only make something happen once, like a fluke, like you got lucky, just call it a miracle, think of it as some unseen entity taking pity on you and sending a blessing your way. But there's no reason to call it magic if you can't repeat it over and over again.

I would not be surprised if one of the few lottery winners across history (that can't do magic) actually attempted some kind of occult ritual to win before they chose their numbers, and then they went on to spend the rest of their life thinking that they had magic powers. Even if they tried the ritual 100 more times and lost, they'd probably convince themselves that the stars and the moon were just aligned in a specific once in a lifetime way, which allowed their special abilities to work and win them the lottery.


People are much more concerned with feeling special (ego driven) than legitimately attaining abilities, so this way of magic will always be the norm, and that's why it's best to take most people's claims of abilities with a grain of salt.

Most people want to believe that they caused the miracles/perks they experience in life, and rarely will you find someone that will honestly tell you "I just got lucky, it had nothing to do with me".

I've only just begun my journey, and I may or may not get anywhere, but I know that I will be objective and judge myself by a simple strict rule:
If I believe I have exceptional abilities, then my life should reflect that belief, which means my life should also be exceptional. If that is not the case, I am delusional and lying to myself about my abilities.

It's that simple

If the average person tells me that they can read minds in real time, I'll ask them why they haven't retired already from their poker winnings.

I have yet to hear of a magic ability that couldn't be used in some way to very quickly become wealthy.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I think if you can actually perform a specific feat with magic, it should be as dependable as a lighter. There are conditions and actions required to make a lighter create a flame. It must have lighter fluid inside and you must press the button to cause the reactions that create the flame. You know that when the conditions and actions are met you will get a flame, and you can repeatedly test this and see the result yourself.

Alas, that's 'normal' science you're speaking of. If magic was repeatable in this reliable kind of way it would have been accepted as part of physics long ago.

If you investigate magic as if it were science, the best you get is a 'small but significant effect'. (See Robert Jahn's PEAR lab as one of the best examples). The reason for this, I opine, is that it is difficult to separate yourself from consensus reality. Your result needs to be isolated from anyone else who might negatively influence it, and even then, your chances over the long run can be no better than 8%. (see the Frauchiger-Renner thought experiment, experimentally confirmed by Massimiliano Proietti and his team)

The reason many magic acts are 'one offs' is to try and cheat this 8% limit.

 

[Pyrokar]

@Robert Ramsay
Another banger, thank you sir.
Unfortunately you used the word "opine" so we will be sending units to your area of residence.
Please do not resist and accept your turn on the pyre. After that we're going after Xenophon.