Does successful meditation make or break your rituals/spells?

[morgwyn]

Hi! New to this site and interacting with the occult world on the internet in general.

Wanted to ask opinions on this. I use the term "successful" loosely, because what DOES successful meditation look like? I'm sure different for everyone.

Basically, is being able to meditate well a necessary function to successful spell/ritual-casting?

I personally struggle with meditation on the regular, some days I'm good at it and can focus, other times I cannot. I almost always have to use guided meditation or a background song to get me in the zone. I haven't had any issues with spell casting, but always wonder if I'd have even better results if I was better at meditation lol Rituals are not new to me but I would still say I fall into the beginner category.

And if you DON'T meditate, what do you find helps you get into the zone while doing rituals or spellwork?

 

[Nembra]

I find there exists a number of substantially different "zones". Beside that, I don't think meditation is generally essential - I'm not doing it all that often - but I guess people are varied in all kinds of ways. Maybe it's what you need, maybe it isn't - I certainly wouldn't treat it like a competition.

 

[morgwyn]

I find there exists a number of substantially different "zones". Beside that, I don't think meditation is generally essential - I'm not doing it all that often - but I guess people are varied in all kinds of ways. Maybe it's what you need, maybe it isn't - I certainly wouldn't treat it like a competition.

Thank you for the response. I don't use it all that often, given that I'm not the best at it. Ive just seen it discussed as a very important stepping stone for a lot of people.

 

[solxyz]

Meditation is not an inherently necessary practice or skill for successful ritual. You will note that none of the old texts call for it. Instead, they used as ass ton of preliminaries and preparations: fasting, abstaining, bathing, lengthy orations, etc.

However, being a good meditator has a few benefits for one's magical practice. First, obviously, it increases your ability to concentrate, which does increase their potency. Second, it builds your familiarity with your mental patterns, which helps when seeking to discern differences that indicate spirit communication. Third, it makes your a fundamentally more stable, rooted being, which puts you in a stronger position in all your dealings with reality, making you less reactive, and tends to lead to choosing better goals.

 

[HoldAll]

Here's my admittedly purist view regarding meditation: at its most basic, meditation means stilling the mind, halting the useless chatter in your head until all discursive thought ceases. Peter J. Carroll calls it Not-Thinking, Franz Baron Thought Discipline, Zen Buddhists

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. In practice, it's very demanding for beginners, so you'll be much better off with

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where you focus on an object, for example the breath or a mantra, which is much easier. Sit upright without leaning against the backrest of your chair or the wall (finding or getting used to a correct posture may take a while). Allow your thoughts arise and pass away until they finally dry up. Zen guys have this concept called 'radical acceptance' which also applies to meditation: if there's some unexpected noise, accept it, same as discomfort or being unable to concentrate temporarily. Stop struggling against the whole world, accept it as it is.

Meditation is not a means of propelling you into altered states of awareness, bestow visions unto you, or reveal vistas of infinite bliss - those are all trance goals, in my book. Consequently, I wouldn't call lolling on the couch while listening to trippy music or so-called guided meditations the real thing. In my opinion, meditation is solely between you and your bodymind, no props needed. My favourite practical manual is Culadasa's The Mind Illuminated, the only book you'll ever need if you're serious about meditation.

Is meditation an absolute necessity for doing magic? I would have said yes until I read this fascinating thread started by @MorganBlack where he quotes Simon Dyda's The Wandering School of Secrets:

A common misconception in modern occultism is that magic will only start working once the magician has overcome certain hurdles, such as learning to banish thought through meditation; correct breathing techniques; the building up or channelling of esoteric energies; physical and mental exhaustion; the use of narcotics; the study of psychology and/or neurology; the fortification of one’s will power; or by developing one’s ‘psychic’ abilities. Other supposed requisites include entering a trance state, or having an orgasm and then banishing any thoughts concerning the desired goal.

None of these things are necessary in magic. […]

At first I was stunned because I've always considered meditation an indispensable requirement for magic. Then I remembered my first experiments with chaos magic and realised he was right - it's the rituals themselves that can catapult you into the zone and which made scatterbrained me focus intensely (may have been noob jitters as well ). Meditation is useful for clearing your head as a preliminary but come ritual time, it's (light) trance that's called for, not dispassionate concentration. My only qualifier is that any ritual has to engage the emotions - whether you achieve this with robes, consecrated implements, incense, or just your impassioned (or droning) voice. I always say that chaos sigils have to look impressive, mere doodles won't cut it. Some years ago, a member reviewed an otherwise fine book but complained about the verbal style of its spells which were more like nursery rhymes, e.g. with one line ending in 'love' and the next one in 'dove' - she was simply unable to take them seriously. I'm reminded of the Greek Magical Papyri which sometimes contain fragments of Homer, so borrowing some (good) poetry from somewhere would be another idea.

A ritual should be a special event, so make it special, dramatic, a piece of performance art. Nevertheless, I'd still recommend meditation if you want to learn how to concentrate effectively.

 

[unlight]

From what I’ve observed, only Theravada Buddhism has this practice—performing rituals after entering a specific meditative state, as described in the Sāmaññaphala Sutta—and considers it a necessary condition. Perhaps the Indian tradition also has this practice, but I haven’t had any direct experience with it.

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The key point here is that while many traditions do indeed have relevant classical texts, there are no practitioners in the modern world, and there are also issues stemming from modern fabrications (when a place becomes a tourist attraction, you suddenly find a slew of legends and folk artifacts popping up from all over). Consider how yoga was introduced and what its actual forms are. Sometimes you’ll find that certain customs—which some modern traditions are eager to describe—didn’t exist at all a few decades ago, or were practiced only by a small number of people; yet now, everyone claims to be a master.

 

[OberonFromTheHills]

preliminaries and preparations: fasting, abstaining, bathing, lengthy orations, etc.

I believe that all those preparation found in western world serve the same purpose : focusing your intent and getting in the zone.

 

[Nembra]

At first I was stunned because I've always considered meditation an indispensable requirement for magic. Then I remembered my first experiments with chaos magic and realised he was right - it's the rituals themselves that can catapult you into the zone and which made scatterbrained me focus intensely (may have been noob jitters as well ). Meditation is useful for clearing your head as a preliminary but come ritual time, it's (light) trance that's called for, not dispassionate concentration. My only qualifier is that any ritual has to engage the emotions - whether you achieve this with robes, consecrated implements, incense, or just your impassioned (or droning) voice. I always say that chaos sigils have to look impressive, mere doodles won't cut it. Some years ago, a member reviewed an otherwise fine book but complained about the verbal style of its spells which were more like nursery rhymes, e.g. with one line ending in 'love' and the next one in 'dove' - she was simply unable to take them seriously. I'm reminded of the Greek Magical Papyri which sometimes contain fragments of Homer, so borrowing some (good) poetry from somewhere would be another idea.

A ritual should be a special event, so make it special, dramatic, a piece of performance art. Nevertheless, I'd still recommend meditation if you want to learn how to concentrate effectively.

This brings to mind this whole annoying topic of objective quality of art. Does a person of unrefined tastes have an easier job doing rituals? Or does the very fact posit a form of spiritual weakness? Would the person who wrote those atrocious rhymes benefit from reciting better poetry?

 

[MinaAnd23as]

If meditation and improving your focus is your goal, the only way to "get better" at it is to continue doing it daily. It can be really difficult at first because the mind wants to wander. These days we are trained to do anything but be still. That's why a lot of meditations recommend starting out focusing on the breath. It keeps the mind busy on something, gives it something to do.
When you start wandering again, gently guide it back to breathing. Jack Kornfeild, a buddhist teacher, likens it to training a puppy. Just pick the puppy (your attention) up and put it back where the breath is.

Guided meditations can be useful (the AudioDharma podcast has some good ones in their library), but I find that over time they can become a crutch. So after a few listens, I like to pick visualizations or patterns that I find the most useful and then try to do them on my own. When I was just starting out a couple of the useful "templates" I would use are 1.) to count breaths. i.e.- "breathing in..... breathing out...." or inhale "1" exhale, inhale "2" exhale, etc, to ten then start back at one again. and 2.) a visualization I'd use often was to imagine the top of my head like an open bowl with a marble sitting inside it. The bowl and marble can be any texture and color you like. But when you start out and the mind is all over the place, imagine the marble rolling around like crazy, going this way and that. Then as you breathe and go deeper into the practice, imagine the marble slowing down until it's finally settled in the center of the bowl and still. Then just focus on that image for as long as you can hold it.

It takes some time, but eventually you learn that bodily sensation that accompanies deep meditation and then can slip into meditation quite quickly and effortlessly. That's around the time I quit seeing the daily practice as "essential." Although every so often I find myself needing to get back into daily practice when I find myself getting too frazzled with daily chaos.

But what you deem as essential is all up to you. I would recommend trying it daily in spite of your distracted attention, since you did mention having issues with focusing. Anyway, hope some of this helps.

 

[MorganBlack]

I would have said yes until I read this fascinating thread started by @MorganBlack

Aww, thank you, HoldAll!

I love meditation and think it's important, but the practice just needed to be 'right-sized' a little.

Meditation is not a causal agent , and there are no Jedi Mind Powers you don't already have right now - but meditation is a great method to get out of your own way by turning down the volume of our left-hemispheric, discursive, critical brain chatter. The left brain is literally the place of our "toxic ego" that keeps us from becoming caught up in the ritual, story, emotions, being playful, and symbolic ideas.

This is what Chaos Magic calls the 'Psychic Censor.' - but back in the 1970s and 1980s when CM was first being formulated they just didn't have modern neuroscience to describe it more usefully quite yet.

See creativity research here and...

Iain McGilchrist:
The Master and His Emissary / The Divided Brain.

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[solxyz]

Here's my admittedly purist view regarding meditation: at its most basic, meditation means stilling the mind, halting the useless chatter in your head until all discursive thought ceases. Peter J. Carroll calls it Not-Thinking, Franz Baron Thought Discipline, Zen Buddhists

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.

A bit of quibble that is not really just a quibble: Shikantaza does not mean putting an end to discursive thought. Shikantaza is completely open sitting in which discursive thought is accepted as one of the phenomena that can arise. The reason that this is not just a quibble is because the intention of the practice is quite different. Shikantaza is not primarily a practice for building any particular mental skill or learning to manage one's experience, rather its aim is nondual recognition and abiding.

This points back the question of the definition of meditation. Unfortunately, I don't think that there is one real meaning of the word, other than something very general such as "a mental training or practice." The term meditation applies to a range of practices from a range of cultures (including western practice from before the prevalence of Buddhism in the west) with a range of goals, and there is no way around that. And, by the way, this is true even in traditional Asian cultures as well. The Tibetan word gom, for example, has a pretty similarly broad range of meanings as the English word meditation.

 

[HoldAll]

A bit of quibble that is not really just a quibble: Shikantaza does not mean putting an end to discursive thought. Shikantaza is completely open sitting in which discursive thought is accepted as one of the phenomena that can arise. The reason that this is not just a quibble is because the intention of the practice is quite different. Shikantaza is not primarily a practice for building any particular mental skill or learning to manage one's experience, rather its aim is nondual recognition and abiding.

This points back the question of the definition of meditation. Unfortunately, I don't think that there is one real meaning of the word, other than something very general such as "a mental training or practice." The term meditation applies to a range of practices from a range of cultures (including western practice from before the prevalence of Buddhism in the west) with a range of goals, and there is no way around that. And, by the way, this is true even in traditional Asian cultures as well. The Tibetan word gom, for example, has a pretty similarly broad range of meanings as the English word meditation.

Sorry, my bad, serves me right for mentioning meditation varieties I haven't studied yet. I did have some initial problems with letting my thoughts come and go and tried very hard not to beat perfectionist me up about them, which of course made everything worse. I really love the concept of radical acceptance though. Bad weather? Radically accept it. Neighbours too noisy during meditation? Radically accept it. And if I'm unable to radically accept that fact, I try to radically accept that too. Such a cool concept.

 

[MorganBlack]

Unfortunately, I don't think that there is one real meaning of the word, other than something very general such as "a mental training or practice."

Hmmm. Just chiming in again to say self-hypnosis can work as stand-in concept for the practice. It is jargon-lite, which work in our favor here.

I love Zen but for my very first Verum / GG ritual, I used a self-hypnosis routine. It was the 1990s and we all still thought trance was necessary. The effects and result were dramatic, very effective, and solidly set me on this weird path.

To this day I still think self-hypnosis, while not totally necessary, is a very useful tool. It bypasses some of the specialist, "esoteric," high-minded language that is like catnip for our left hemisphere, and operates by narrowing focused attention inward to increase suggestibility and bypass the left-brain critical filter. This was something I very much needed when I first started with my very secular, locked-down brain /heart / soul.

After "induction" as they call it, then the hybrid Verum / GG ritual itself - or whatever you are using - forms part of the "script" for targeted cognitive re-scripting . I had gotten the idea originally from reading Jason Black / David P. Wilson, I keep meaning to write this up and add it here
Author - Jason S. Black’s notes from 'Pacts with The Devil' (1993)

 

[beardedeldridge]

Like others have said, there isn’t any one thing required for success. That isn’t to say you can half ass an operation and expect results either. You have to have “enough”, what all you cobble together to get there depends on you and what you are trying to achieve. More than one way to skin a cat and all that.

Now as far as meditation goes, it’s a powerful technique in a practitioner’s bag and I’m a huge proponent of it but it isn’t required.

 

[solxyz]

Hmmm. Just chiming in again to say self-hypnosis can work as stand-in concept for the practice. It is jargon-lite, which work in our favor here.

I love Zen but for my very first Verum / GG ritual, I used a self-hypnosis routine. It was the 1990s and we all still thought trance was necessary. The effects and result were dramatic, very effective, and solidly set me on this weird path.

Unfortunately I don't know if "hypnosis" or "self-hypnosis" has a clear and definite referent either. In general, hypnosis tends to be thought of as trance induction for the sake of bringing about behavioral or emotional change. If you're using techniques that have been developed by hypnotists, but for the sake of being able to more fully engage with ritual, that is another way of entering trance (or a kind of trance. I'm not entirely sure to what extent different trances are different phenomena). However, there is a very interesting book called Hypnosis without Trance by James Tripp, which argues that the trance is not a necessary part of hypnotic work, and lays out a pretty interesting map of what he thinks the "active ingredients" in hypnosis actually are.

It's something I'm still pondering, since light trance is absolutely the space in which I like to engage with ritual, and indeed which ritual seems to call for.

 

[MorganBlack]

Unfortunately I don't know if "hypnosis" or "self-hypnosis" has a clear and definite referent either. In

A clear and definite referent probably just upticks the probability of a break in immersion.

But I agree nobody actually agrees on what hypnosis is, or if it even exists as a distinct state of mind.

The book that originally had me exploring this line of research was Monsters & Magical Sticks There's No Such Thing As Hypnosis by Steven Heller , which I read in the 1990s.

Heller’s argued that "hypnosis," as a concept, is a useful lie , and there is that there is no singular "trance state" that gets switched on like a lightbulb. What we call hypnosis is simply a natural, everyday shift in attention and consciousness. Calling it "hypnosis" makes people expect a super theatrical, Hollywood-style trance, which actually blocks the experience.

And the "magical stick" he mentions can be the ritual, and is any tool, word, or ritual turns down the reducing left-brain's valve of consciousness and give the left-hemisphere Chatty Kathy psychic censor permission to step aside a bit. Heller gave me some clues to recognize that it's the fluidity, the ontological ambiguity we fight against ,and the willingness to just play along with the frame are what make "trance" or "hypnosis" work here.

Then connect Heller’s "magical stick" to Aldous Huxley’s "brain as consciousness reducing valve" (and then see Dr. Ian McGhilcrist for better details on how this is a feature the left-hemisphere) and then how, at least on our end of things, ritual, story,myth, poery, song, imagery, body-based feelings reduces the left hemisphere’s analytical grip and bit and bridges more the gap between hypnosis, neuroscience, and ritual practice.

Exactly how much that immersion is needed, I really don't know . Just t saying the words and waving the sticks works. But the fact we are eventrying to measure that probably means we are in the crinkly death grip of the left-hemisphere again. I so think it's more important earlier in formal ritual protocols as you are mythologizing yourself and becoming visible in the spirit world. Later, like my long time GV allies are just ... around. Trance or no trance. But even now it's with the visions are when I am most "there" but that could also be due to my early expectations.

 

[EmperorV]

getting into the "alpha state" is pretty important