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Do you think the language matters in evoking spirits during ceremonial magic? I keep finding the problem that grimoires are often written in old english (such as A cunning man's grimoire) or in any other language that would either be too difficult for me to pronounce and learn the original incantations with the proper pronunciation, such as Greek or latin, so I was thinking on translating them to my own language before using them. I would of course leave the names per the original and everything else as loyal as I could.
Do you expect using the translation instead of the original could be an issue?
it's a complicated issue with several schools of thought
The Golden Dawn and by extension, any tradition that has roots in the kabbalah would have good reason to insist on strict grammar
ironically they are also the ones who contain the most irregularities and mistakes or mistranslations in their works,
yet the rigidity of the discipline is ultimately what matters more to them.
There are plenty practices that make this a non issue in contrast, but if we break the question down to the individual
it can easily happen that translations to native language don't have that weight behind them and can come off sounding silly,
even if it's for just a moment a purist may argue you ruined the whole operation by trying not to giggle at something dumb
One final note to add is that it is a well known psychological quirk that speaking in another language may act as a different personality all together as well that in the occult circles the aspect of "barbarous words" may have more impact simply because they don't hold solid meaning to you.
at the end of the day the vocal parts of the work are meant for us more than the entities as they don't communicate that way to begin with
due to that the most popular solution is comfort "do what feels right" which i always considered a blank answer ignoring all the other
clues- that being that the involvement of the user is established via the spoken components (among other things),
together with a language that is not native or at least in archaic form (meaning if you were to translate something do it in dramatic, older style of speaking that purely street-level conversational way) to include what is essentially a theatrical effect is more important than proper pronunciation
in other words, if you are using the original intended language forms don't sweat about pronunciation too much
and if you are going to do translations do it with a bit of artistic flares and older out of use words
in the end you won't be using the original intended language nor your native every day life language either way
add a sense of poetry, alliteration and so on since most all of these are always meant to be hummed, intoned or sung like lyrics
as opposed to reading it off a page with zero emotional investment or being careful to say it all correctly when they didn't write it down properly.
have authority, belief and tension behind what you say - above all else.
Do you think the language matters in evoking spirits during ceremonial magic? I keep finding the problem that grimoires are often written in old english (such as A cunning man's grimoire) or in any other language that would either be too difficult for me to pronounce and learn the original incantations with the proper pronunciation, such as Greek or latin, so I was thinking on translating them to my own language before using them. I would of course leave the names per the original and everything else as loyal as I could.
Do you expect using the translation instead of the original could be an issue?
The good advice is already given, so I'll just add some of my thoughts:
if to translate or not is not to me that much about the effectivity of spell, rather about how I perceive that language. Christians that consider Latin holy language of their religion, are obvious to me to find great power in using it, because it's for them real magical language. Same for some people with Enochian, being angelic language that was spoken by Adam, angels and probably god too.
I don't have any such, I use modern English and my native language, usually preferring the later and that means translating spells into it.
There have been various discussions about magic names before, and even if the words come from an intelligible language, the exact pronounciation of these words is far from certain, esp. with dead languages like Latin or ancient Hebrew. The PGM, for example, were written in koine Greek but how they were pronounced over the centuries of their writing by Egyptians or Greeks speaking a local dialect specific to that area is anyone's guess. I myself have no problem with Latin which I had at school (the grammar is a nightmare!) but Medieval Latin (which our teacher despised) is much simpler than Roman Latin and not always grammatically correct, and the Catholic priests in various countries have different ways of pronouncing it (should a 'c' be read as a 'k', a 'ts' or a 'tch'? the latter one is the preferred pronounciation by Italian Vatican priests).
With Middle English it's probably the same, no one knows how it was pronounced locally, at university level, etc. The main thing is the effect the language of a ritual has on YOU - would a linguistically 'modernized' Shakespeare play, for example, impress you just as the play would in its original language? Exotic works are imposing but probably not if you stumble over every other syllable, I'd say.
Something more about the creation of different languages. Sanskrit created with Truth. Hebrew created in the Truth of Fire. The meaning behind the creation of these languages are also something that can impact the language. A bit like a sigil that you create.
at the end of the day the vocal parts of the work are meant for us more than the entities as they don't communicate that way to begin with
due to that the most popular solution is comfort "do what feels right" which i always considered a blank answer ignoring all the other
clues- that being that the involvement of the user is established via the spoken components (among other things),
together with a language that is not native or at least in archaic form (meaning if you were to translate something do it in dramatic, older style of speaking that purely street-level conversational way) to include what is essentially a theatrical effect is more important than proper pronunciation
I agree, just imagine if you spoke a Greek incantation and the spirits were exclusively able to answer back in the same language… if we assume that spirits are super-intelligent and highly powerful beings, that they can even sense your thoughts (including subconsciou conflicting feelings you may have about your ritual which may spoil its success), that they are able to comprehend your meaning no matter in which language it is expressed, then I’d also say the exact wording matters mostly to yourself. BUT: Say the ritual words rhyme or have been composed in a certain meter, contain puns or poetic allusions that only work in that language, then you’d be hard pressed to produce the same effect in your native language.
Those barbarous names/voces magicae in the PGM, on the other hand, must not be changed on any account, both the Chaldean Oracles and Iamblichus are adamant on this point. Or consider Sanskrit mantras – nobody would dream of „The jewel is in the lotus“ (one of several possible translations) thousands of times a day instead of simply reciting„Om mani padme hum“ (the Tibetan version btw is „Om mani peme hung“; the monks there have apparently used it without any ill effect for centuries).
Crowley’s rituals and poetry with their „thou“, „dost“, „thee“, „doth“ used to annoy me no end but those archaism do have a certain effect. Sometimes, even in books of renowned authors, on the other hand, you‘ll find verses in rhymes that sound plain ridiculous, like nursery rhymes or drinking songs. I’d rather recite a spell in Latin then because it sounds solemn, pious or at least neutral to me (hard to imagine the ancient Romans ever told jokes in that language, for example ). Just try to translate hiphop songs into your own native language, they will most likely sound ludicrous, therefore it makes good sense to leave them in the original.
Most of the above applies to incantations and formulae but I’d make an exception for prayers. I’ve sat through enough boring Masses as an altar boy where priests would simply rattle off their Lord’s Prayers and Hail Marys and drone out their litany calls without an ounce of feeling, therefore I think that prayers should always come straight from the heart and strongly involve the sentiments, and when you find that hard in a foreign language, then by all means translate the prayer concerned and give it your emotional all whenever you recite it.
I’ve sat through enough boring Masses as an altar boy where priests would simply rattle off their Lord’s Prayers and Hail Marys and drone out their litany calls without an ounce of feeling
yeah but then comes in the gigachad holiest of the holy orthodox overweight priest and literally makes you cry by the end of his second verse
complexity and experience go hand in hand. -not that we're debating anything i agree on most all acounts just building it up now-
same as the sigil visually clicks the words are under two layers of meaning and it gives it a very nice oomph,
my top "spell" is aequam servare mentes which i imagine you might appreciate despite it being conventionally horrible
throwing translations back and forth is the well known vice of the damned. Just ask the Yazman about names and meanings
like when you get too deep into maths, it's very easy to get lost in the subcontext
keep it short and simple, no way you can go wrong. in fact it will likely end up metal as fuck
"it's all a lie, just a hollow lie, except for death" daaaaaaaaaaamnnnn
yeah but then comes in the gigachad holiest of the holy orthodox overweight priest and literally makes you cry by the end of his second verse
complexity and experience go hand in hand. -not that we're debating anything i agree on most all acounts just building it up now-
same as the sigil visually clicks the words are under two layers of meaning and it gives it a very nice oomph,
my top "spell" is aequam servare mentes which i imagine you might appreciate despite it being conventionally horrible
throwing translations back and forth is the well known vice of the damned. Just ask the Yazman about names and meanings
like when you get too deep into maths, it's very easy to get lost in the subcontext
keep it short and simple, no way you can go wrong. in fact it will likely end up metal as fuck
"it's all a lie, just a hollow lie, except for death" daaaaaaaaaaamnnnn
Ha, we had this village priest for a time, rail-thin, pale, with hectic blotches on his cheeks, a card-carrying Virgin Mary fanatic, and even his Masses were boring. On the other hand, I once saw a very popular bishop preach, tons of charisma, it was like watching Anthony Hopkins play...
This discussion reminded me that I once knew the One Hundred Syllable Vajrasattva Mantra (Tibetan version) by heart, so I googled it and you know what? I don't even want to open the pages because they all have translations, and I don't even want to know what the words mean (they didn't tell us at the workshop), it would spoil these memories, of the rolling hills of Tuscany and so on, and I'm thinking of taking up that practice again. That mantra is just beautiful... even though I don't understand the words and don't know how to pronounce them like a Tibetan, they have this intrinsic rhythm that suggests itself automatically, where you begin calm and level-headed and slowly work yourself into a frenzy ending in "HO-HO-HO-HO-HO!". It's a manly mantra, not some mushy NewAge gibberish.
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I've started to copy out that mantra anyway, all the time studiously avoiding looking at the translation, so I'd have to correct myself, it's:
HA HA HA HA HO
The comment under those syllables informs us that "HA HA HA HA" denotes "syllables of the four immeasurables, the four empowerments, the four joys, and the four kāyas", while conceding that "HO" is a "syllable of joyous laughter in them". All in all, a very learned instruction to have a good belly laugh. Western Buddhist scholars have no humour.
Ok, so based in your answers, I think it can be helpful to try initially in the original language, and if that makes me feel so much like a court clown that I can't concentrate properly then do it in my native language, with the exception of words of power and names.
Do you think the language matters in evoking spirits during ceremonial magic? I keep finding the problem that grimoires are often written in old english (such as A cunning man's grimoire) or in any other language that would either be too difficult for me to pronounce and learn the original incantations with the proper pronunciation, such as Greek or latin, so I was thinking on translating them to my own language before using them. I would of course leave the names per the original and everything else as loyal as I could.
Do you expect using the translation instead of the original could be an issue?
When it comes to names, original language might be a better choice BUT.... when it comes to incantations and those words you would use to assert authority and will, what's best is whatever gives you that feeling of authority and pure will. When you speak in tongues that arent original to your psyche, it will make it harder for you to identify with it, make it yours and get that feeling that ultimately is the engine and driving force that moves your magick. Feeling is a very important ingredient in any magickal tradition and endeavor, so the language that makes you feel like the creating God/Goddess that you are, that is the right one for you
Just found the famous passage in the Chaldean Oracles I was looking for (Ruth Dorothy Majercik, "The Chaldean Oracles", verse 155):
Change not the barbarous names of evocation, for these are names in every language which are given by God, which have in the sacred rites a power ineffable.
Just found the famous passage in the Chaldean Oracles I was looking for (Ruth Dorothy Majercik, "The Chaldean Oracles", verse 155):
Change not the barbarous names of evocation, for these are names in every language which are given by God, which have in the sacred rites a power ineffable.
that's the point. All of the examples above fall into that category.
Thunder The Perfect mind sounds beautiful no matter which way you flip it.
ye that's old especially from me i know, but less directly related is a very interesting little thing called Chaos language
now, this is not in occult terms but a very inspired idea of a musician (far as i know in her early twenties then) for a
game series. In it- the music is composed around classical opera, dramatic and philosophical way but the language is an attempt at predicting
how we would sound like a thousand years from now + extinct
...she took words from languages freely and did basically what we were talking about at first
then she went crazy and touched the fking infinite or something
the end result is immaculate thousands of people are feeling it and hear ghost lyrics even though the words meanings are unknown.
but it's still coherent and related to eachother and the larger themes going on.
ya'll thought it was gonna be physics or math didn't you? as a matter of fact, if we are talking about the "actual" chaos language?
sorry but it's far more appropriate to be Esperanto or English. you know it's true.
-anyway, i think that music really did hit some gnosis and it's worthwhile to anyone interested in the OG subject.
trust me, play this two times just for that hype of making out sense of the words vs emotion and then sit there and tell me this isn't magick
(pro tip-read the comments)
they might be singing about door knobs for all we know. or maybe...
Love that Poem,
As for languages, I only mention those specific rituals because of the meaning behind the words used, and it’s just extremely common and taught using the original words where as doing other rituals it’s more about getting into the mindset or gnosis, as for Chaos Magick as mentioned yeah I believe using a language you don’t know helps bury it in the subconscious, you can hyper focus on the sigil and the words without thinking too deeply on the meaning or outcome. As for the LBRP/ Kabbalistic Cross ect… the meaning of the words is fine to know and focus on.
as a side note that song sounds interesting and I’ll give it a few listens.
As far as the language having purpose in mathematics or physics. Well yes and no, it would probably fall in line with neurology, maybe have some type of physics rather Newtonian but more likely a quantum connection and mathematics is the language of the universe. Music composition goes with the rhythm of a timed tempo for instance. Instruments need to be at a certain hertz to get the best quality sound out of the instrument and that’s measured with numbers. Sound and numbers do go hand in hand. Like how solfeggio frequencies are number oriented is another example.. our tone and words have an effect, that’s why chanting can be used to enter a trance. The sound, repetition and reverberation.
the question being is it ALWAYS necessary to use the specific names. I’d say no it’s not always, but in some rituals it’s definitely useful. It’s like if a monk decides to chant something other than “Omm” or “Auhmm” they can probably get themselves in the same tranquil place but that tone and the meanings and usage helps facilitate the desired state. It’s seen as necessary because of tradition. But your song just highlights the fact a made up language can also bring someone into an altered state.
Ps. The song is really beautiful, it’s a shame it has the action of the game increasing the tempo it sounds like it should be more mournful. Its sounds like (imo) a lady who was suffering and feels she got no help, she’s begging to be heard, she wants to be cleansed from the evil that others perceive her as and the guy comes in saying this is your fate, you were one of a kind, I did what I could but this is how it ends.
The QC has Hebrew words and three sephiroth (which in itself are translatable), so no barbarous names there. Same with the LBRP proper, you have four godnames that can be explained, the names of the archangels are basically like first names. I don't know the GIRP/SIRP from practical experience so I can't comment on these rituals
There have been many discussions whether the LBRP could (or should) be modified. Some people, for example. add Metatron to the archangels in order to invoke ether as the fifth element (which I don't think is necessary as you invoke the Source in the QC anyway) and also Sandalphon (which I again consider superfluous, you're working in Malkuth all the time). Others ditch the Abrahamic references altogether and replace them with Pagan ones in order to make the LBRP congruous with their belief system - until yesterday, I would have said, "Ok, why not, but then it's not the LBRP anymore", but then I read Foolish Fish's opinions on the LBRP who sees it more as a method to align oneself with sacred powers, and if there are equivalent forces in another pantheon the LBRP should work regardless if seen from that perspective. There have been numerous forum discussions on the LBRP here so that would be a separate topic.
An even broader issue would be the question whether it's possible to modify prescribed rituals at all. The consensus seems to be a cautious "ok, but practice it first the way it is written so you understand it thoroughly before you change anything." So Crowley, for example, added some lines to The Bornless Rite in his Liber Samekh (his version of the PGM's Headless Rite) and altered others . Alright, but then he changed the barbarous name/voces magicae for numerological reasons or to fit his personal interpretations, and that's definitely not ok. His SOTOU, for example, feels different than the orignal SOCHOU - the 'CH' sound makes the barbarous name more smooth while the 'T' represents an interruption in the flow of syllables - which in itself is ok when it's intended that way but not here in this specific line of words of power where all the transitions are more of less seamless.
Those are not solely theoretical musings, I've performed the Headless Rite many times, and Crowley's distorted barbarous names feel simply plain wrong to me and evoke slightly different emotions. This is why I side with the Chaldean Oracles - leave the barbarous names absolutely alone.
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And regarding pronounciation: Do your best to research the question, settle on one that 'feels' appropriate (= very unscientific but in the absence of reliable data, intuition is all we have), stick with it, and as they say - evoke often.
The QC has Hebrew words and three sephiroth (which in itself are translatable), so no barbarous names there. Same with the LBRP proper, you have four godnames that can be explained, the names of the archangels are basically like first names. I don't know the GIRP/SIRP from practical experience so I can't comment on these rituals
There have been many discussions whether the LBRP could (or should) be modified. Some people, for example. add Metatron to the archangels in order to invoke ether as the fifth element (which I don't think is necessary as you invoke the Source in the QC anyway) and also Sandalphon (which I again consider superfluous, you're working in Malkuth all the time). Others ditch the Abrahamic references altogether and replace them with Pagan ones in order to make the LBRP congruous with their belief system - until yesterday, I would have said, "Ok, why not, but then it's not the LBRP anymore", but then I read Foolish Fish's opinions on the LBRP who sees it more as a method to align oneself with sacred powers, and if there are equivalent forces in another pantheon the LBRP should work regardless if seen from that perspective. There have been numerous forum discussions on the LBRP here so that would be a separate topic.
An even broader issue would be the question whether it's possible to modify prescribed rituals at all. The consensus seems to be a cautious "ok, but practice it first the way it is written so you understand it thoroughly before you change anything." So Crowley, for example, added some lines to The Bornless Rite in his Liber Samekh (his version of the PGM's Headless Rite) and altered others . Alright, but then he changed the barbarous name/voces magicae for numerological reasons or to fit his personal interpretations, and that's definitely not ok. His SOTOU, for example, feels different than the orignal SOCHOU - the 'CH' sound makes the barbarous name more smooth while the 'T' represents an interruption in the flow of syllables - which in itself is ok when it's intended that way but not here in this specific line of words of power where all the transitions are more of less seamless.
Those are not solely theoretical musings, I've performed the Headless Rite many times, and Crowley's distorted barbarous names feel simply plain wrong to me and evoke slightly different emotions. This is why I side with the Chaldean Oracles - leave the barbarous names absolutely alone.
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And regarding pronounciation: Do your best to research the question, settle on one that 'feels' appropriate (= very unscientific but in the absence of reliable data, intuition is all we have), stick with it, and as they say - evoke often.
Thanks for the clarification and yeah I’m one of the types that change the lbrp names to suit my beliefs. Although the QC part I use the original wording. I can see what you mean with other barbarous names though, I -think- we pretty much agree on the underlying point. Wording is a matter of what works. If the wording is off and it fails to illicit the same reaction/feeling/emotion then stick to the original, other times something may work better for the individual. I think in some cases it’s more about tradition where as others it’s the way the language and names are constructed. Which is why they sometimes use the term “vibrate the names”. you’d know better than I, especially if you are more ceremonial in nature.
Thanks for the clarification and yeah I’m one of the types that change the lbrp names to suit my beliefs. Although the QC part I use the original wording. I can see what you mean with other barbarous names though, I -think- we pretty much agree on the underlying point. Wording is a matter of what works. If the wording is off and it fails to illicit the same reaction/feeling/emotion then stick to the original, other times something may work better for the individual. I think in some cases it’s more about tradition where as others it’s the way the language and names are constructed. Which is why they sometimes use the term “vibrate the names”. you’d know better than I, especially if you are more ceremonial in nature.
It's the same with other ritual components - if you are allergic to frankincense, for example, you'd be stupid to rigidly cling to the traditional formula and burn it anyway. I sometimes wonder though what I'd do if I ever came across a barbarous word that would be an impossible obscenity in the languages I know... SOCHOU from my example above means "with the statue" in Czech but that doesn't seem to matter in any way when I do the Headless Rite.
It's the same with other ritual components - if you are allergic to frankincense, for example, you'd be stupid to rigidly cling to the traditional formula and burn it anyway. I sometimes wonder though what I'd do if I ever came across a barbarous word that would be an impossible obscenity in the languages I know... SOCHOU from my example above means "with the statue" in Czech but that doesn't seem to matter in any way when I do the Headless Rite.
Forgive my ignorance but, headless right is/was a golden dawn ritual but didn’t they take much of what they knew from older traditions, If (going by your example let’s say Sochou did matter) and it feels odd for you in your mother tongue or in a secondary language you know, couldn’t you go back to the original which would probably be Greek, Aramaic or Egyptian? The word may sound familiar, maybe a slight variance but seeing the word or thinking of the word you could use the original language in which it derived from even if the pronunciation is the same you could seperate it from any previous connotation.
another example would be using yod-heh-vav-heh I don’t worship or even really acknowledge YWHW but I wouldn’t mind using the pronunciation as I can seperate the name from the power in my conscious mind even though the name still holds power in the subconscious. if that makes sense?
). Just try to translate hiphop songs into your own native language, they will most likely sound ludicrous, therefore it makes good sense to leave them in the original.
