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[Opinion] Does using the original language matter in Ceremonial Magic?

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Pyrokar

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. 🤷‍♂️ if that makes sense?
i get it.
you're overcomplicating it for yourself a bit. but since you went down the rabbit hole
now you gotta figure it out or it's gonna bug you forever lol. It's an inner logic thing going on, you gotta see the pieces click
no third-party answer will explain it quite the same.

always keep it short and simple to avoid that kinda headache.
 

Shade

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i get it.
you're overcomplicating it for yourself a bit. but since you went down the rabbit hole
now you gotta figure it out or it's gonna bug you forever lol. It's an inner logic thing going on, you gotta see the pieces click
no third-party answer will explain it quite the same.

always keep it short and simple to avoid that kinda headache.
In my own practice which isn’t ceremonial in nature, I don’t really let it concern me I do however like to get a more experienced persons pov.
I also don’t mind holding 2 contradicting ideas in my mind at the same time, it can come across as confusing to others which is why I should do better to articulate my point. but at the end of the day, HoldAll, I’m positive he has more ceremonial experience than me. I’m familiar with some rituals and I don’t mind reading grimoires with rituals in them. But I focus more on meditation, energy manipulation (which words as a source of power falls into that on some level which is why it interests me) and other things that the thread isn’t about so I won’t get into them, however. I don’t believe I’m over thinking it. If a word holds a certain connotation it’s a reasonable question imo if they could use the root words spelling to get past any negative connotations the word itself might illicit when thinking of it. Or using a more ancient form of the word in a different language, if he has any experience in trying that, it’d be interesting to know how that worked rather than completely changing the word.
 

Yazata

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It's a hot topic apparently because it keeps coming up the past few weeks in a couple of threads. There are people who say that all barbarous words are humbug, there are others who say they are sacred and even if you have no idea what they mean you should rigidly stick to them, there are those who are absolutely certain about pronunciations and there are others who sometimes think one thing and at other times something else.
Those who agree with each other become great friends and no one is convincing one of the others with arguments.

Now after that pointless intro I'll try to rephrase my own take(s) on it.
I think a lot of these really old words have been copied, recopied, copied again and possibly not always correctly. When a copyist was unsure of the meaning or some of the letters he may have tried to correct / interpret the words and maybe in doing so has changed the whole spell(ing..)
In some rituals it might make sense to treat a word (of uncertain origin) as if it is Hebrew, in other rituals or Spells maybe Persian, in yet other maybe Greek or Danish or Afrikaans.

Speaking in a language that you don't really understand is good in ritual to "get into it" though. You need to have an understanding of what (you think that) you are saying, but the foreign sounds allow you to lose yourself in it easier than when you are super conscious of every letter or syllable that you might have slurred by accident (and thereby offending the Gods and dooming your soul foreverz)
 

HoldAll

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Forgive my ignorance but, headless right is/was a golden dawn ritual but didn’t they take much of what they knew from older traditions, If (going by your example let’s say Sochou did matter) and it feels odd for you in your mother tongue or in a secondary language you know, couldn’t you go back to the original which would probably be Greek, Aramaic or Egyptian? The word may sound familiar, maybe a slight variance but seeing the word or thinking of the word you could use the original language in which it derived from even if the pronunciation is the same you could seperate it from any previous connotation.
another example would be using yod-heh-vav-heh I don’t worship or even really acknowledge YWHW but I wouldn’t mind using the pronunciation as I can seperate the name from the power in my conscious mind even though the name still holds power in the subconscious. 🤷‍♂️ if that makes sense?
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describes the original Headless One from Hellenistic Egypt under the Romans very accurately. It features the Greek original, a transliteration of the original as well as an English translation. However, I personally like to use Crowley's archaisms ("Thee", "didst") as given in the Liber Samekh or in the version of Jason Miller's "Real Sorcery" because it was this book which inspired me to include the rite in my daily practice in the first place, since originally I thought it was too advanced for me. Miller recommends it for beginners, and I think he's right, it teaches you how to negotiate with denizens of the Otherworld in general, that’s probably his rationale. Both the Betz PGM translation and the Digital Ambler one have modern English while Crowley's rendition probably follows the first translation made by a mid-19th century philologist (who was appalled that his beloved noble Hellenes should babble incomprehensible gibberish, so he completely left out all the barbarous names :LOL:).

The original Headless Rite is an exorcism but was used as the "Preliminary Invocation of the Goetia" by Aleister Crowley and Samuel L. MacGregor Mathers in their Lemegeton translation for the same reason: you first evoke a creator god but in the second part you become that god in order to have the authority and power to deal with any evil spirits or negotiate with demons; what some would call an 'assumption of a godform'. Crudely put, it pumps you up and makes you ready for anything. There a various theories as to who exactly that headless god is but my favourite one is that many (not all) Egyptian gods have animal heads so you kindasorta replace one of these animal heads with your own one (after all, in the assumption part, you say “I am the one whose mouth is utterly aflame”, so it must be your own head, right?), and just to make things easier that god hasn't got a head to start with.;)

Even in this ritual you can’t escape Jahwe in the form of “Sabbaoth”, it’s got “Isaak” as a word of power, too, there’s also the Gnostic Abrasax, and in general the PGM borrow from Greek, Egyptian, Jewish and other sources. A very chaos magic approach, in a way – whatever works, works.

I admit I still have my problems with that YHVH, I’m completely unable to drum up the requisite awe and reverence (it’s probably my own chaos magic background) when I’m performing the LBRP, so I take the Gnostic bypass, so to speak, and imagine the “YHVH”, the “Adonai”, etc. to be the Gnostic demiurge - not stupid, clumsy or evil as some Gnostic sects believed but rather as corresponding to our own blinkered, limited understanding of God and absolutely not The Ineffable Source, Ain Soph or whatever. Which dovetails nicely with the Headless Rite where you say: “I am Moses, Thy prophet, to whom Thou hast transmitted Thy mysteries celebrated by Israel.” Transmissions are not always perfect, there may have been misunderstandings and mistakes, or maybe Moses was not such a bright guy after all… and later the Chinese whispers would continue until somebody finally put stencil to papyrus. Probably no one knows how YHVH is pronounced as a full word anyway but it’s all we have… so I try to think that the ancient Israelites didn’t know any better and projected their land-grabbing ambitions into that egregore demiurge they created instead.

So at the start of the QC I try to connect with the Source, not Jewish/Christian Jehova. I really should arrive at a better interpretation than that Gnostic bypass, the main ritual feels like a bit like I’m performing some piece of traditional Jewish folklore. Oh well… I might replace the LBRP with the „Circle of Power“ and the „Advanced Calling“ in Damon Brands „Archangels of Magick“ (which I also did for a time). Then again, the LBRP has such a formidable reputation that I think I'll give it a few more months (or years?) as a daily practice after all just to see if I’m able to conjure up a more appropriate and respectful attitude.
 

Sabbatius

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It's a hot topic apparently because it keeps coming up the past few weeks in a couple of threads. There are people who say that all barbarous words are humbug, there are others who say they are sacred and even if you have no idea what they mean you should rigidly stick to them, there are those who are absolutely certain about pronunciations and there are others who sometimes think one thing and at other times something else.
Those who agree with each other become great friends and no one is convincing one of the others with arguments.

Now after that pointless intro I'll try to rephrase my own take(s) on it.
I think a lot of these really old words have been copied, recopied, copied again and possibly not always correctly. When a copyist was unsure of the meaning or some of the letters he may have tried to correct / interpret the words and maybe in doing so has changed the whole spell(ing..)
In some rituals it might make sense to treat a word (of uncertain origin) as if it is Hebrew, in other rituals or Spells maybe Persian, in yet other maybe Greek or Danish or Afrikaans.

Speaking in a language that you don't really understand is good in ritual to "get into it" though. You need to have an understanding of what (you think that) you are saying, but the foreign sounds allow you to lose yourself in it easier than when you are super conscious of every letter or syllable that you might have slurred by accident (and thereby offending the Gods and dooming your soul foreverz)
Much of what is done in Trance work causes a state of Ecstatic Euphoria that often creates an uttering in "glossolalia," or tongues-just pouring forth, almost like gibberish. However the utterings are relevant to the trance ritual as they are usually during a drumming and all-night pyre gathering, calling forth the Morning Dawn.
 

Shade

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describes the original Headless One from Hellenistic Egypt under the Romans very accurately. It features the Greek original, a transliteration of the original as well as an English translation. However, I personally like to use Crowley's archaisms ("Thee", "didst") as given in the Liber Samekh or in the version of Jason Miller's "Real Sorcery" because it was this book which inspired me to include the rite in my daily practice in the first place, since originally I thought it was too advanced for me. Miller recommends it for beginners, and I think he's right, it teaches you how to negotiate with denizens of the Otherworld in general, that’s probably his rationale. Both the Betz PGM translation and the Digital Ambler one have modern English while Crowley's rendition probably follows the first translation made by a mid-19th century philologist (who was appalled that his beloved noble Hellenes should babble incomprehensible gibberish, so he completely left out all the barbarous names :LOL:).

The original Headless Rite is an exorcism but was used as the "Preliminary Invocation of the Goetia" by Aleister Crowley and Samuel L. MacGregor Mathers in their Lemegeton translation for the same reason: you first evoke a creator god but in the second part you become that god in order to have the authority and power to deal with any evil spirits or negotiate with demons; what some would call an 'assumption of a godform'. Crudely put, it pumps you up and makes you ready for anything. There a various theories as to who exactly that headless god is but my favourite one is that many (not all) Egyptian gods have animal heads so you kindasorta replace one of these animal heads with your own one (after all, in the assumption part, you say “I am the one whose mouth is utterly aflame”, so it must be your own head, right?), and just to make things easier that god hasn't got a head to start with.;)

Even in this ritual you can’t escape Jahwe in the form of “Sabbaoth”, it’s got “Isaak” as a word of power, too, there’s also the Gnostic Abrasax, and in general the PGM borrow from Greek, Egyptian, Jewish and other sources. A very chaos magic approach, in a way – whatever works, works.

I admit I still have my problems with that YHVH, I’m completely unable to drum up the requisite awe and reverence (it’s probably my own chaos magic background) when I’m performing the LBRP, so I take the Gnostic bypass, so to speak, and imagine the “YHVH”, the “Adonai”, etc. to be the Gnostic demiurge - not stupid, clumsy or evil as some Gnostic sects believed but rather as corresponding to our own blinkered, limited understanding of God and absolutely not The Ineffable Source, Ain Soph or whatever. Which dovetails nicely with the Headless Rite where you say: “I am Moses, Thy prophet, to whom Thou hast transmitted Thy mysteries celebrated by Israel.” Transmissions are not always perfect, there may have been misunderstandings and mistakes, or maybe Moses was not such a bright guy after all… and later the Chinese whispers would continue until somebody finally put stencil to papyrus. Probably no one knows how YHVH is pronounced as a full word anyway but it’s all we have… so I try to think that the ancient Israelites didn’t know any better and projected their land-grabbing ambitions into that egregore demiurge they created instead.

So at the start of the QC I try to connect with the Source, not Jewish/Christian Jehova. I really should arrive at a better interpretation than that Gnostic bypass, the main ritual feels like a bit like I’m performing some piece of traditional Jewish folklore. Oh well… I might replace the LBRP with the „Circle of Power“ and the „Advanced Calling“ in Damon Brands „Archangels of Magick“ (which I also did for a time). Then again, the LBRP has such a formidable reputation that I think I'll give it a few more months (or years?) as a daily practice after all just to see if I’m able to conjure up a more appropriate and respectful attitude.
Doesn’t a Bornless rite precede the headless rite? Or am I thinking of something different?
and yeah as far as the QC is concerned I don’t mind using Adonai as it’s just “Lord” and it doesn’t specify who, so I think of the essence of Christ or calling down esoteric wisdom. As for the LBRP yeah I can use YHVH/YHWH when pronounced how it’s written but I use my own terminology and even with the arch angels I don’t use their name either. Hell, I’ve used comic book character names as egregores in their place before. Instead of Michael or mik-ai-el it was Spy-der-man. 😂 I take it just as serious even when I used like an egregore/pop culture icon and it was rare just till I decided which pantheon to go with. (not the same feeling but I was able to keep practicing without going against my beliefs, definitely felt as silly as it sounds) ) now I typically use Egyptian deities where as before it was Greek. But I’ve been thinking a lot about using a more planetary based approach and seeing how that feels. It’s really what I’m drawn to at any given time till I find what really, really “clicks”. I think that is the point of barbarous names, it’s what typically tends to click.
 

HoldAll

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No, the Bornless One is just Crowley's name for the Headless Rite. Jason Miller used 'Bornless' One as well so I did initially, too, but 'Headless One' somehow fits the words of the ritual better, so I switched to that version.

In the other thread I mentioned that for me, the main criterion was coolness. No, seriously. If a word sounds awesome, then it produces awe, it's as simple as that.

However, I personally would be unable to use superheroes because sorry, I just can't take them seriously. I might give ancient Greek heroes a try though... Heracles, Ulysses, Achilles (damn, forgot about that heel! :ROFLMAO:).
 

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Think about it. When the only language was the original, the ritual would be like a modern person speaking in their language. Not quite. The words chosen in the original language at the time, were words from someone who was tuned and effective...a master of sorts, if you will. So the language, its symbolism and phonetic structure is tuned to the intent of the composer.

In addition to this, languages like Sanskrit are designed to maximize the impact of the Word. The catch is that "correct" pronunciation is not enough. The brain is not structured for the language, so the waveform it makes in the body-mind may be only weakly absorbed. That means, if you are going to get into original language rituals, you probably need to study the language- although not so you learn it, just learn to accept its presence and truth so the subconscious will be more at home with the otherwise foreign vibration.
 

Morell

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Think about it. When the only language was the original, the ritual would be like a modern person speaking in their language. Not quite. The words chosen in the original language at the time, were words from someone who was tuned and effective...a master of sorts, if you will. So the language, its symbolism and phonetic structure is tuned to the intent of the composer.

In addition to this, languages like Sanskrit are designed to maximize the impact of the Word. The catch is that "correct" pronunciation is not enough. The brain is not structured for the language, so the waveform it makes in the body-mind may be only weakly absorbed. That means, if you are going to get into original language rituals, you probably need to study the language- although not so you learn it, just learn to accept its presence and truth so the subconscious will be more at home with the otherwise foreign vibration.
Good points there, I think that you are trying to explain programming oneself to actually think in the language of the spell? (meaning thinking in the terms of that language)
 
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