[Opinion] Doth Magick Conduce to Madness?

[Xenophon]

...or is it just that ambitious and frustrated people are drawn to the discipline? This forum is (relatively) benign. Usually. Still one sees quirks. And queerer things lurk out there than WF. My guess is that people come to magick with a pretty teeming beastiary of quirks already whelped and weaned. The practice tends to highlight these. (Though this can be fixed with time and psycho-spiritual sandpaper 'n varnish.)

 

[dragonmagus]

I don't think practicing magick can make anyone go mad. I think that already having a mental instability that keeps someone from taking care of themselves, can get worse if that person practices magick. But for people who are just quirky and different, most occult practitioners are quirky and different, in a good way. I think it's like you said, the practice will highlight the quirks and traits someone already has.

 

[Xenophon]

I don't think practicing magick can make anyone go mad. I think that already having a mental instability that keeps someone from taking care of themselves, can get worse if that person practices magick. But for people who are just quirky and different, most occult practitioners are quirky and different, in a good way. I think it's like you said, the practice will highlight the quirks and traits someone already has.

A number of magi recommend psychotherapy before embarking on magick. Dion Fortune, Israel Regardie, Lon Milo Duquette, et al. But, then, in Fortune's youth, Freud was considered a demigod. (By some, by some.) Besides, she and I line up on opposite sides of a deep divide and I'm not talking RHP vs. LHP. Regardie was a co-culturist of Freud and later himself a member of the amusingly named "helping professions." And ol' Lon Milo is from California. Thus I am sceptical. And I'll desist from being cured.

 

[dragonmagus]

My question is, what is a mental illness in the first place? Anytime someone doesn't act according to a set standard, society says something is wrong with that person. I think some of these psychologists etc. need help themselves, and aren't really getting the help. I know mental health issues can come up for a person but I don't think being insane, is as common as people think. I don't trust the mental health field that much.
So, I wouldn't suggest someone seek mental health assessments before practicing magick. But at least something as severe as hearing voices all the time, and not being able to control this, is a reason to find help using the medical field.
At the same time, spending time evaluating our own self as some of the early-day occult practitioners said, is good to do. But also, from what I've seen, magick offers ways to heal both mentally and physically through rituals, herbs, meditation, etc. The um, helping professions lol, I feel, could learn a lot from an experienced occult practitioner. Something as simple as having a meditation practice can also help heal stress and anxiety.

 

[HoldAll]

Magic is surely detrimental to people with schizoid tendencies who tend to be loners, prone to excessive daydreaming and seeing/hearing things that are not really there anyway. Somebody close to a nervous breakdown or some sort of burnout would probably not benefit from magic either if it adds to the daily stress in their lives. A strict regimen of daily practice and pathological perfectionism isn't a good combination either. It really depends on how a practitioner subjectively experiences magic, as something empowering or as yet another struggle they feel ill equipped for.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Since magic basically consists of 'hacking your own brain', there are bound to be a few mistakes...

The major problem I've spotted is that once you get brought face-to-face with magic, that can result in totally failing to negotiate Chapel Perilous and ending up thinking you are the grand high Pooh-Bar.

The two best examples I know are:
1) Scott Adams, who relates his experiences with magic in the last chapter of 'The Dilbert Future' - and then proceeds to go bonkers.
2) Noel Edmonds, a UK DJ & TV presenter, who discovered 'the power of positive thinking' and went on to try to sell people a mind machine that cures cancer. (SPOILER: it does not cure cancer.)

 

[Xenophon]

Since magic basically consists of 'hacking your own brain', there are bound to be a few mistakes...

The major problem I've spotted is that once you get brought face-to-face with magic, that can result in totally failing to negotiate Chapel Perilous and ending up thinking you are the grand high Pooh-Bar.

The two best examples I know are:
1) Scott Adams, who relates his experiences with magic in the last chapter of 'The Dilbert Future' - and then proceeds to go bonkers.
2) Noel Edmonds, a UK DJ & TV presenter, who discovered 'the power of positive thinking' and went on to try to sell people a mind machine that cures cancer. (SPOILER: it does not cure cancer.)

Last I heard, Scott Adams went sane last February or thereabouts.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

If by sane you mean 'went on a massively racist rant and got dropped from nearly every newspaper'.

I'm sure it was all part of his master plan to torpedo his career.

 

[Xenophon]

1) "massively racist"? He stated simple facts. Facts every urban American lives by, though seldom enunciates.
2) torpedo his career? He has his f***-you money. Thus he enjoys the luxury to say what he thinks.

A saner man by far than programmed-voices echoing in this forum.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

He based his rant on one poll, that clearly reflected what he thought anyway. Do you trust people to answer any one given poll?

As Frank Zappa said: "The only way you're gonna get people to agree with you, is if they agree with you already."

Anyway, to get back on topic, Adams certainly came out of Chapel Perilous thinking he could 'walk on water', and no longer needed to put his trousers on one leg at a time.

 

[Challis]

Lol we live in a world of made up rules. You can do this but not that. Isn't that silly?
Being homosexual was defined as a mental illness until like the 70s. DSM V's one of many definitions is 'a psyche operating outside of societal norms'. Fuck that, i think how i like tbh.

..."but is restricted by cultural norms", e.g. spirituality is normal in some cultures, so they can't diagnose you with delusional disorder or hallucinatory disorder. But if that is not part of your spiritual/religious order, (for example some Asian religions, to be vague) you're crazy.

Writing this made me realise just how silly society can be.

Another definition is your mental illness fucks with you. Just like your leg isn't broken and doesn't stop you from working, your mind is fine IF; and you can keep social relations (family, friends, doesn't need to be a huge number, quality of quantity), you have good hygiene, you operate your finances normally (not perfectly, you're allowed mistakes), you don't have delusions (i.e. you're azrael or whomever). Has magic made this worse for you?

Even if your mind is a little looser than most, if you can still function normally, Does it matter how you compare to society?

Forget the parameters for they are limitless and grow everyday with movements in neurology. Just keep a level head. Be reflective during meditation. Stay grounded when physical. Be able to accept reality. I could literally talk all day but I think I've typed (more than) enough.

Tldr; society is dumb but not as dumb as the occultist who loses good things because for example, they don't need to work because demon A will fund them.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

...or is it just that ambitious and frustrated people are drawn to the discipline? This forum is (relatively) benign. Usually. Still one sees quirks. And queerer things lurk out there than WF. My guess is that people come to magick with a pretty teeming beastiary of quirks already whelped and weaned. The practice tends to highlight these. (Though this can be fixed with time and psycho-spiritual sandpaper 'n varnish.)

I don't believe all sane people are drawn to Magick and come out sane ... Unless severely grounded by others throughout their tenure.
Some people view it as la la land.
Doesn't explain the CIA and Hemi Sync Gateway process. But that was declassified in 1970.

Post automatically merged: Nov 26, 2023

Or the vast variety of books released about the secret societies, wrote without blinds, so that anyone can practice it.
Or certain grimoires that were held secret by elite secret societies of a couple flavors ... That actually work well or so they say.

 

[Pyrokar]

As Mr.Ramsay pointed out there is a lot of hacking involved in magick, especially the beginner levels.
It is definitely possible for a "normal" person to lose their mind either by their own fault, bad instruction or
by intervention of outside forces, most often we see these as a punishment.
What makes it more problematic is that the individual might never see it coming nor realizing the change that happened.

There is more that can be said about madness in general, i for one stick to the greek philosophy that they do see much differently than we do
and in their mania they are capable of reaching the divine on a more personal,instinctual,subconscious way. The romantic age also shares this view.
But that's not what we're here for. Does it lead to madness? yes. possibly. Apply the "Fck around and find out" graph.

Post automatically merged: Nov 26, 2023

@Challis
Reminds me of the Disturbed lyrics
"If society is free why can't i be as twisted as i wanna be"

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I would say frustration and desperation conduces to madness, particularly with Magick.

 

[Ancient]

I think it's very much a possibility, but it has to do with stresses placed on the ordinary mind, not a warping of the self or psyche due to being in contact with magic.

Some of the magical traditions can expose you to impressive and sometimes frightening paradigms that really challenge conventional (Western) thinking. Couple this with the relative isolation that most of us practice and think in - usually due to the societal pressures regarding being or believing different than normal - and you've got a recipe for a strained mind. Hell, even a positive revelation can fuck with a person if they've got no-one to share it with. Especially if said revelation alters a belief that has been near the core of the personality for a lifetime.

Then there's the dreaded narcissism. You know the type, often on the bestsellers list. There's a good chance they've convinced themselves they're capable of anything under the sun and then some, often responsible for major historical events in a past or current lifetime. This one is tricky to spot developing in one's self, too. It tends to fill up the glass drop by drop and by the time it's reached the top drinking it in is a habit. Although as mentioned, there are more than a few who show up with this attitude already nurtured.


All in all, therapy or counselling is not a bad idea for anyone on the path (or anyone, really). Just find a decent person to work with. There are plenty out there who prefer to help find ways to talk it through or make healthy lifestyle changes sooner than test for this or that disorder and hand out medications. If the building or counsellor makes you uncomfortable or unnecessarily angry there's a good chance it's not the place for you. Cross it off the list and try someone else.

 

[Xenophon]

I think it's very much a possibility, but it has to do with stresses placed on the ordinary mind, not a warping of the self or psyche due to being in contact with magic.

Some of the magical traditions can expose you to impressive and sometimes frightening paradigms that really challenge conventional (Western) thinking. Couple this with the relative isolation that most of us practice and think in - usually due to the societal pressures regarding being or believing different than normal - and you've got a recipe for a strained mind. Hell, even a positive revelation can fuck with a person if they've got no-one to share it with. Especially if said revelation alters a belief that has been near the core of the personality for a lifetime.

Then there's the dreaded narcissism. You know the type, often on the bestsellers list. There's a good chance they've convinced themselves they're capable of anything under the sun and then some, often responsible for major historical events in a past or current lifetime. This one is tricky to spot developing in one's self, too. It tends to fill up the glass drop by drop and by the time it's reached the top drinking it in is a habit. Although as mentioned, there are more than a few who show up with this attitude already nurtured.


All in all, therapy or counselling is not a bad idea for anyone on the path (or anyone, really). Just find a decent person to work with. There are plenty out there who prefer to help find ways to talk it through or make healthy lifestyle changes sooner than test for this or that disorder and hand out medications. If the building or counsellor makes you uncomfortable or unnecessarily angry there's a good chance it's not the place for you. Cross it off the list and try someone else.

I've spent a third of my life in East Asia. Believe me: magic in any form weirds the s*** out of even traditionally-minded Asians. It's one thing to "believe in" ghosts, say. Quite another to meet one. My Party-member wife is more fretful about the supernatural than I. She'll attribute any untoward household event to "ghosts." I tell her to check the batteries first.

Post automatically merged: Nov 28, 2023

I've spent a third of my life in East Asia. Believe me: magic in any form weirds the s*** out of even traditionally-minded Asians. It's one thing to "believe in" ghosts, say. Quite another to meet one. My Party-member wife is more fretful about the supernatural than I. She'll attribute any untoward household event to "ghosts." I tell her to check the batteries first.

For that matter, my Slav gramma from up near the Tatras had a belief system that encompassed everything from ghosts to vampires. She had plenty of spooky paradigms to keep her looking over both shoulders.

 

[Wintruz]

This, and not accidentally invoking demonic hoards, is the real danger in magic.

A number of deep psychological events occur when magic is tried and it is found that it works. These are often so deep as to go unnoticed until the surface begins to show turbulence and, by then, if you're not careful, you may find yourself with a serious problem that doesn't have an easy fix.

In the first is the beginning of detachment from a society which has taught that magic is impossible or else the activity of malevolent agents outside of the magician. The magician knows from experience that neither of these things can be true and so an anchor in the social order is withdrawn. There are a lot of people around who think this has already happened to them but it hasn't; it is usually exceptionally stressful and many try to find a way "back in" (not that I speak from experience or anything...). The further one climbs, the further away from the social order one drifts. This comes with many upsides but the downside of no longer having the psychological parameters which have evolved to ensure that madness does not get a foothold in productive members of the social order. Rejecting "consensus reality" is necessary but shouldn't be undertaken without some awareness of where that can lead.

In the second, the influx of power which attends magic which has worked is not for the faint of heart, especially when you've accomplished the "impossible". This influx will empower all of the Self, just as it is. If you're a petty/impulsive/moody (etc., etc., etc.,) person, you've just amplified that part of yourself and handed it a loaded weapon. Usually those who do not also develop a plan for self-development won't last long; they follow the ever decreasing circle and, more and more, become the victims of themselves, all of which robs them of any talent in magic. They end up among the wreckage of human life.

Third, magic is the extension of the soul outside of itself and, in this, the magician stands in the place of divinity. The realisation that the magician is God brings with it the realisation that morality is self-assigned. I have personally seen this lead to the fastest race to the bottom of moral squalor, always with catastrophic results. As often as not, this is because the super-charged amoralist has forgotten that s/he does not exist in a vacuum but within nature. Tamper with nature at your peril; whether it's someone's angry father banging on your door and about to act on his (natural) protective instincts or the natural laws which govern "mad science".

Nature does seem to endorse virtue and it rewards strength (including over oneself) with ecstasies. Alongside the pursuit of virtue, undoing some the deeper psychological kinks through psychotherapy should not only go along with any magical practices, ideally it should come before them.

 

[byte007]

I saw an interview with Christopher Lee who shrugged off rumour's he had a huge occult library where he said you should not be into the occult as you will lose your mind and soul. I had to laugh, I looked into him and he exudes the occult. He is Hollywood and most of them know all about the occult, varying degree's I am sure but none the less. He had a huge collection of artifacts so I am sure he did have a library of some kind. Have you heard his music? He did Symphonic Metal before he died, quite interesting indeed. He is descended from Charlemagne who as some may know was a king who slaughtered the Saxons long ago. Of course publicly the King was Christian but the leaders were not, they used the religion to control the people. I think he was a great actor for sure. Of course he played Francisco Scaramanga in The Man With The Golden Gun, interesting indeed. Many higher ups in society always pretend to be Christian but we know they are not...lol

 

[pixel_fortune]

I think it's pretty clear that magic attracts a lot of cookers,*


* Australian slang for people whose brains have melted (been cooked) from too much Qanon / flat earth / fox news / sovcit / etc etc content and not enough touching grass - being interested in any given "conspiracy theory" doesn't make you a cooker, but you know a cooker when you meet one. Also includes non-conspiracy theorists with the same obsessive and divorced from reality vibe.

Even if your mind is a little looser than most, if you can still function normally, Does it matter how you compare to society?

Like everyone is talking about the DSM-V and "what is the definition of insanity" and you're all completely right about the suspect nature of the medical health establishment, but also, but also...

come on. you know what's being talked about here. you see the stuff they post. There's currently a guy on r/occult posting photos of Alistair Crowley multiple times a day and saying how beautiful and mesmerising he is, and that he, OP, is taking dictation direct from Crowley. Saying that once or twice wouldn't show he's crazy - maybe he really is channelling Crowley, maybe he's channelling something that says it's Crowley, who knows.

The reason I say he's crazy is because he posts this stuff many times a day [he's probably been banned now tbh], and then gets furious at anyone in the comments who says Crowley was a bit of a dick. Then makes a fresh post titled YOU CAN'T JUDGE AN IPSISSIMUS and then gets extremely upset when everyone in the comments gets mad at him again and tells him to stop posting. He is not socially functional, he keeps repeating behaviour that makes people mad at him - but he's not a troll, because he gets very UPSET that people are mad at him, so he's sabotaging himself.

THAT'S cooker behaviour - not just "believes in lizard people" or whatever, but "cannot have a normal conversation about anything because everything is a trigger for them to talk about lizard people, and talking about lizard people works them up into a rage, so any conversation ends with them ranting angrily"

Things you see on magic forums: people with no sense of personal boundaries (telling complete strangers their life stories and personal traumas in extensive detail in response to unrelated questions, expecting unreasonable amounts of help and support from strangers, etc). people with martyr complexes. narcissists. people making pass-agg comments about how no one on those other forums could HANDLE hearing anything TRUE (the forum equivalent of the guy who says every single one of his exes is a crazy bitch, making you go "I'm noticing a common denominator here and it's not the exes")

I think at the human, non-medical level, we actually mostly do know crazy when we meet it and it's disingenuous to pretend we don't. It's not the beliefs, it's the behaviour.

That said, to answer the original question, I think the occult attracts a lot of crazy people (or rather, people currently experiencing a period of craziness, we don't know their whole lives) but they don't tend to get very far because their interest is surface-level, and when they don't get what they're looking for out of it, they move on


(** Fun side note, cookers are easier to spot in Australia than in the US because they import all their talking points from US sources. When an Australian says "I don't have to pay taxes because the US constitution says so", you don't need to read the US constitution to figure out if they're correct or not. Really saves time. They import conspiracy theories about what's happening in the tunnels under New York to Australian cities with no tunnels. They also import victim figures to Australia, so will tell you "10 million children went missing in Australia last year but no one's talking about it" and you're like "half the population of Australia went missing last year, huh? Interesting.")

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Hey, you talking bout me?
I think the crazy people, personally are ones that have too loose or too tight boundaries as well.
I also think crazy people try to keep up with the Joneses. That is, worshipping the socioeconomic ladder and status quo, continually competing wíth the neighbor. Covet much?

All in all, I think you're spot on. Desperate people flock to Magick looking for an Easy out.