Egocentrism and Magic

[Kepler]

Graduate students are the worst.

There was a Crowley forum that through uneven moderation self-importanted itself into isolation, oblivion then damnatio memoriae. It's legacy so secondhand embarrassing it is to hardly be discussed. It platformed egocentricism to such a degree that the people that worked on things for the website decades ago don't even mention the place.

One of the blindingly funny things posted on the site before it closed was a serious post from one of the outspoken users(I called them General Hand Grenade) that boasted on why people didn't want to join the forum because they(the few forumites left) were too good at Thelema. That is on top of repeatedly boasting that the website and themselves were indispensable and important.

 

[HoldAll]

Elitism is another trap. Calling oneself 'spiritual' or an occultist does NOT elevate us above the 'common herd' of so-called muggles or normies (how I hate that word!). We're not the one's who really know what's going one while everybody else is just a blind meat puppet zombified by crass consumerism and social media.

I think we don't need to be humble as much as we should prepared to be humbled by our experiences and studies. To be aghast at one's own ignorance or foolishness once in a while should be seen (and deeply felt!) as a healthy and rewarding insight, as a sign that one's making progress. The OP is right in that 'brutal honesty' is a good antidote here, provided it doesn't become yet another self-serving pose ("I'm more brutally honest than you, so shut up!").

 

[aviaf]

That kind of posturing is honestly why I stepped away from the O.T.O. in the first place, and why I don’t really spend much time talking about Mr. C. People’s opinions on him swing between worship and outright disdain, and I got tired of the politics and the self-importance contests.

It’s funny how often occult circles recreate the same power games you’d find in any corporate boardroom or college debate club—just with fancier robes and more Latin. That’s why I think what you said about being prepared to be humbled is crucial. A little awe at our own foolishness goes a long way. Otherwise, it’s just egos in cosplay.

 

[frater_pan]

There was a Crowley forum that through uneven moderation self-importanted itself into isolation, oblivion then damnatio memoriae. It's legacy so secondhand embarrassing it is to hardly be discussed. It platformed egocentricism to such a degree that the people that worked on things for the website decades ago don't even mention the place.

Presumably you mean LAShTAL.com. OTOH they were available online for 30 years. OTOH they were shut down in the end by their site owner. So, while heavily egocentric, they weren't wiped out by egocentricism per se. There were also proposals to keep the site up under other ownership.

Currently even their archives are practically impossible to access. It's as if they were the ancient city of Tanis, covered by a sandstorm that lasted over a year and are now lost. "Wiped clean by the wrath of God." (Raiders of the Lost Ark reference)

 

[Kepler]

Presumably you mean LAShTAL.com. OTOH they were available online for 30 years. OTOH they were shut down in the end by their site owner. So, while heavily egocentric, they weren't wiped out by egocentricism per se. There were also proposals to keep the site up under other ownership.

Currently even their archives are practically impossible to access. It's as if they were the ancient city of Tanis, covered by a sandstorm that lasted over a year and are now lost. "Wiped clean by the wrath of God." (Raiders of the Lost Ark reference)

I joined in 2006 to investigate an entity. Got my answer in 2021 and closed my account. Didn't follow the site much before or after.
Considering the abruptness of the closure compared to when ianrons quit dramatically with that sacrifice pic, my guess was to signify sacrificing the site as his baby, sudden departures were established.

I saw proposals to keep the site up discussed on reddit. Along with the remaining userbase in that discussion showing no sign of self-reflection on how they themselves contributed to its demise. It was someone else's fault.

I'm appreciative of the site owner for not allowing access to the archives. The site got co-opted by a few blowhards that aren't socialized well enough to be on other forums. Many users who left over the years that contributed to the site wouldn't want to be part of a foundation to provide unfounded validation and keep platforming them.

 

[TheKEKist]

My experience, thought, and understanding of our endeavors require consistent learning, thought, efforts, and reflection to balance. LHP being that of seeking and incorporating our EGO as the RHP being the persuasion of EGO dissolution... My understanding is that we cannot rise into the higher realms with our both wings (hands) and thus internal alchemy is naught but required to allow coagulation of our solved EGO. I feel and believe that a tempered, refined, and polished EGOTISM is required for our continued progress to whatever goal we/me/ewe may fancy.
Sadly many choose a single path rather than being able to observe, seek, participate, and comprehend the entirety of which we desire "enlightenment' .

As it is said, "There is more than one way to skin a man, and however we choose will require us to deal with the mess if we want to continue to progress"

Post automatically merged: Sep 28, 2025

'Our both wings'

 

[frater_pan]

I'm appreciative of the site owner for not allowing access to the archives.

The issue is that there was a great deal of wheat amongst the chaff and now none of it is accessible.

The site got co-opted by a few blowhards that aren't socialized well enough to be on other forums.

Yeah, it devolved into severe disharmony (and that's an understatement). However at least one of the more offending members, maybe more than one, have gone on to "provide Thelemic services" on their own websites where they can continue their sort of targeted rage posting. One of those targeted me with a ridiculous comment / accusation on X. I was quite stunned. I can't imagine signing up for even an academic study of Thelema (or anything) with this person. There definitely are alternatives but in general, outside of the various witchcrafts, the reliable occult space (beyond divination) is pretty sparse.

Many users who left over the years that contributed to the site wouldn't want to be part of a foundation to provide unfounded validation and keep platforming them.

They should reconsider. Of course we don't want to platform maniacs but we need to provide reliable occult platforms for people.

 

[Kepler]

The issue is that there was a great deal of wheat amongst the chaff and now none of it is accessible.

Yeah, it devolved into severe disharmony (and that's an understatement). However at least one of the more offending members, maybe more than one, have gone on to "provide Thelemic services" on their own websites where they can continue their sort of targeted rage posting. One of those targeted me with a ridiculous comment / accusation on X. I was quite stunned. I can't imagine signing up for even an academic study of Thelema (or anything) with this person. There definitely are alternatives but in general, outside of the various witchcrafts, the reliable occult space (beyond divination) is pretty sparse.

They should reconsider. Of course we don't want to platform maniacs but we need to provide reliable occult platforms for people.

Before I closed my account I copied stuff from the site that I valued. Largely my own posts(to touch on the topic of ego). When I closed it I wanted to have all my posts deleted, which unfortunately the selected software didn't follow through. The owner was courteous and deleted a few selected posts even after I closed. That was despite luckily closing just in time to become one of the last anonymous accounts before closed accounts were numbered.

I wasn't too concerned as it was expected to end up not mattering anyway. It seemed pretty clear that The Aleister Crowley Society wasn't going to last must longer at the rate it was isolating itself into obscurity.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

Elitism is another trap. Calling oneself 'spiritual' or an occultist does NOT elevate us above the 'common herd' of so-called muggles or normies (how I hate that word!). We're not the one's who really know what's going one while everybody else is just a blind meat puppet zombified by crass consumerism and social media.

I think we don't need to be humble as much as we should prepared to be humbled by our experiences and studies. To be aghast at one's own ignorance or foolishness once in a while should be seen (and deeply felt!) as a healthy and rewarding insight, as a sign that one's making progress. The OP is right in that 'brutal honesty' is a good antidote here, provided it doesn't become yet another self-serving pose ("I'm more brutally honest than you, so shut up!").

What good is humility to a GOD??
& what’s the point of doing magick if not to be BETTER than the human HERD??
HAIL ME (Lord Maximagus)!

(Jokes jokes)

 

[Wintruz]

I think one thing that's often overlooked precisely because it's too painful to the ego is that, for the vast majority of people who engage with the more intense side of occultism, we have pretty deep trauma. This isn't so much the case for things like mysticism, astrology and so on, they have wide appeal, but I'm talking here about serious attempts at magic, the essence of which is "I won't just accept fate". I'm not demonising this instinct, sometimes fate is a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and we're right to say, at least, "I'll play the cards dealt me as best I can". We actually have an obligation to do that.

There's a delicate, complex relationship going on here because trauma can cause a person to see through the lies told by outer society ("Work hard and you'll get on", "I love all my children equally", etc., etc.) and that can lead to re-evaluating beliefs rejected by society. At the softer end this can be the alchemical: "The world is clearly unfinished and we can perfect it with the right techniques". At the harder end there's the satanic: "If this society/parent/cosmos represents God, I'm on the other side". Although we might debate about which approaches are useful long-term, a person who is interested in magic because of trauma may well be acting perfectly rationally (perhaps even more so than those who don't re-evaluate everything). However...

Trauma doesn't diminish the ego. It wreaks havoc with it, causing under-confidence in some areas and compensatory over-confidence in others and added to this is the natural desire to not be harmed again and the hardening of the ego as a protector. Then magic is introduced into this disarray and, with it, the realisation that change is possible and we've just let little Timmy, with a gaping emotional wound, loose with rocket fuel.

Personally, I see less of this online (there are definitely egomaniacs around - often those who denounce everyone else as one - but well-intentioned confusion is much more common online) than I have among real life magicians: my jaw has genuinely dropped at times when encountering some people and rarely where you might think (I'll be pilloried for this but - who cares, it's true - the Golden Dawn system can be really effective at distorting some peoples' sense of importance).

I think the solution is not to denounce. A traumatised ego isn't going to give up its toys because someone else finds it unpleasant. Instead, I think it has to come from the recognition of how ego distorts us ontologically. One's true nature cannot piece through into the world, one cannot fulfil their deepest purpose, because this big clumsy obstruction is in the way. When that realisation occurs, and life supplies the small darts that pop the bubble, the popping can bring ecstasy as often as it brings pain.

 

[Romolo]

A competent and Powerful Practitioner doesn't have to say anything when in the room of their peers. Your presence speaks for itself. Humbleness and dedication make for a competent practitioner.

Humbleness, balance, reticence etc. seems to me something many seekers aspire or at least find praiseworthy. From Gurdjieff‘s advice to his daughter: ”Do not take up too much space. Do not make unnecessary noises or gestures. Do not sell yourself. Speak only what is necessary...” all the way back to Castiglione’s Book of the Courtier (1528), who wrote of sprezzatura, “nonchalance”, giving an air of ease, walking and standing in a cool fashion, but also to the Aztecs moral philosophy: “be careful not to eat too fast or you deserve to choke”. Longer quote referring to Aztecs: “pure life is considered as a precious turquoise; as a round, reed-like, well-formed, precious green stone. There is no blotch, no blemish. Those perfect in their hearts, in their manner of life, those of pure life—like these are the precious green stone, the precious turquoise, which are glistening, shining before the lord of the near, of the night”. (Bernardino de Saharan, 16th century, Florentine Codex book 6, chapter 22– book uploaded here on the forum) Maybe also relevant here is Hildegard von Bingen’s medieval treatise on balancing the extremes.

I thought a lot about this humbleness, and how it is intertwined with the occult and the Great Work. I believe we can be drawn to it, because it is precisely what we lack. Then we run the risk that it becomes just another act or game, or worse, that it turns us into a simulacrum of what “an esteemed mage” would do in a certain situation. Maybe in some situations the thing a magician/practitioner ought to do is to punch their fist through a wall or cackle like a hyena. No serious magic can ever succeed without that sparkle of wildness. And then what, to remain “perfectly calm” towards the outside world, but do your thing when the curtains are closed? There should be space for imbalance too, for madness, for “letting the weirdness in” (Kate Bush).