[Opinion] Foundational Chaos!

[Asteriskos]

I wanted to get some opinions and thoughts on what others feel is a good basic "foundational" start on the subject of Chaos Magick, and the direction it may have been envisioned to go in from the get go (for lack of a better way to phrase it). Unless someone has access to an experienced practitioner who might say "Okay, today it's Chaos Magick day", most folks are initially exposed through a book/s. Since the late 1970's there's been a "corpus" building up on the subject
including some gems and some not so much, so I'm going to state my .02 cents here on what I think is the absolute "minimum" for a well rounded introduction to the subject. If I mention an author that has produced a lot of content my thought will be the most "practical" as foundational. This will be rock bottom minimum, usually I would imply the most recent editions by default (maybe not always though) if not I'll try and explain why.

Peter Carroll:

• Liber Null & Psychonaut
• Liber Kaos

Ray Sherwin:

• The book of Results
• The Theater of Magic

Anything of an introductory nature on Chaos Theory, Science, Quantum Physics, et al.
(Simply because this is the Real World Twenty First Century, and it Helps IMO.)
I don't mean to say pursue "grad" work here just a basic familiarity with the subject,
My background is somewhat technical so this stuff is of interest, YMMV.
I'll simply give a couple of examples that I think make a Real Good General Intro.

Felix Flicker, PhD:

• The Magick of Physics: In Everyday Life

Alan Chapman:

• Advanced Magic for Beginners

That it. I think this is enough for a good basic intro to Chaos Magick! This is more than enough
to become proficient in it's use as well as understand the Mechanics.

 

[MorganBlack]

Cool topic, Asteriskos.

My 2 cents:

1. A huge influence on me :
-- Ramsey Dukes - 'SSOTBME Revised - An Essay on Magic'


2. Can I add Neville Godard's Law of Assumption here?

I loved Chaos Magic as theory for many years, but the techniques did not work for me until I read Neville. That inner sense of "this is just... so" just part of reality, however you get there, was missing in classic chaos magic texts for how I'm wired.

He's mostly for us more right-brained creative types. Neville was a dancer and his techniques work well for us. Which amounts, basically, just using your imagination to create a scene like being in a first-person video game experiencing with total immersion a situation where the thing you want is also. Do it a few minutes everyday until it 'clicks' in your head that it's done. Fiat est.

 

[Asteriskos]

Cool topic, Asteriskos.

My 2 cents:

1. A huge influence on me :
-- Ramsey Dukes - 'SSOTBME Revised - An Essay on Magic'


2. Can I add Neville Godard's Law of Assumption here?

I loved Chaos Magic as theory for many years, but the techniques did not work for me until I read Neville. That inner sense of "this is just... so" just part of reality, however you get there, was missing in classic chaos magic texts for how I'm wired.

He's mostly for us more right-brained creative types. Neville was a dancer and his techniques work well for us. Which amounts, basically, just using your imagination to create a scene like being in a first-person video game experiencing with total immersion a situation where the thing you want is also. Do it a few minutes everyday until it 'clicks' in your head that it's done. Fiat est.

Brother you can add Anything you want here!
Ramsey "Lionel Snell" Dukes stuff is of course kick-ass IMO too! I printed Lots of his essays.
My bad for ommitting him, because he sure was/is one of the early one's to shape the paradigm, er... Meta/Paradigm!

Neville Godard's Law of Assumption here?

This I gotta look into because I'm "ignorant" by omission, if you say it's good, nuff' said!

I'll tell you as well that I've liked a Lot of the stuff you've put up! I'm one of those people that can "feel" things, I got both Left and Right lobes going on so... thanks. I'm impressed by your stuff too! Rock On!

 

[MorganBlack]

** sniff ** I honestly do appreciate that , my brother. Thank you!

 

[Vandheer]

The Master Works of Chaos Magick by Adam Blackthorne is also so good!

 

[Asteriskos]

I know I'm not the only one that's expressed the wish (over time) for a Chaos place of it's own here. I'm also aware of how much work it is to move things around and manifest that, so failing that, squeezing it in here Does work. I just reread both Liber Null and Liber Kaos recently which prompted this whole shooting match here. I do believe something I was told (back in the mists of time) you will likely understand a book after around the third pass through it. I've read those books more than that and I can Still get even deeper Insights, amazes me greatly!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 6:56 PM

The Master Works of Chaos Magick by Adam Blackthorne is also so good!

Agreed, I've checked it out!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 7:03 PM

Some of the newer current authors have put out some good stuff, it appears to be evolving. What I posted at the beginning was probably me not wanting the "Foundational" stuff to be overlooked, which sometimes is, IMO! I'm all for putting out Original Insights, Chaos surely contains more than we've seen up till now?

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 7:13 PM

I welcome the thoughts on books, also if anyone has any thoughts on the "principles and/or concepts" let's say "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" or Anything, ( Bad habit those Capitals ) please feel free talk about it here!

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

Chaos magic is a great way to get into Hermeticism tbh. I started as a chaos wizard and from my experience, unless you actively avoid it or just never progress further along, you will naturally transition into the Hermetic paradigm from the chaos magic paradigm as you advance as a practitioner. Mind you I'm not saying Hermetic kabbalah, just Hermeticism, I don't need any Jew magic in my All-is-One-is-All.

 

[Asteriskos]

Over a long time ( and believe me I've given this a Lot of thought ) I've begun to crystalize something like this. If someone were to ask ( and I realize we're All asked over and over ) "What kind of magician, sorcerer, wizard, witch, et al, are you?" after rereading both Carroll's foundational books again this just expressed itself: "I'm a Chaos Magician whose drawn to Graeco-Egyptian and Folk Magic/k" Always have been from the get go. Point is, if anyone wants to talk about Why they might Want to Practice Chaos Magick and/or will it work with XYX paradigm, or anything else that's cool too!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 7:37 PM

Chaos magic is a great way to get into Hermeticism tbh. I started as a chaos wizard and from my experience, unless you actively avoid it or just never progress further along, you will naturally transition into the Hermetic paradigm from the chaos magic paradigm as you advance as a practitioner. Mind you I'm not saying Hermetic kabbalah, just Hermeticism, I don't need any Jew magic in my All-is-One-is-All.

Okay, fair enough, Hermeticism is a vast paradigm in it's own right. Rock On!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 7:41 PM

Chaos magic is a great way to get into Hermeticism tbh.

Chaos magick is a great way to get into all kinds of different paradigms, good point!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 8:10 PM

What paradigm-al doorways has Chaos magick opened for You? Were you led to Chaos magick from another paradigm, what resonated where and Why? Just some thoughts!

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 10:34 PM

For most of the time during writing this up we've had a Monumental thunderstorm going on here, so much so that I had to go outside and "Suck the Energy Up!" Seriously, I'm an "elemental" kinda guy, and I never let a good Thunderstorm go to waste. I was trying to get some words down so my wife came in to smile and ask me if I was going to go outside (on the deck)? Well yeah! She's an elemental kinda Gal! Chaos going "Feel the Chaos, Magicians!" Thunderstorms are so damned Refreshing! "Talk to Me Thor", Wow! Does anyone else grab an opportunity to draw energy from Nature / Natural Phenomena? It's always been natural for me, even getting a boot in the butt when I was 5-6 for trying to stay outside in storms.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

Chaos magick is a great way to get into all kinds of different paradigms, good point!

The issue with your statement is that Chaos Magic and Hermeticism are technically the same paradigm, just with different mindsets behind them.

 

[Asteriskos]

The issue with your statement is that Chaos Magic and Hermeticism are technically the same paradigm, just with different mindsets behind them.

I don't agree with that, but I do agree they often cross pollinate each other and are ultimately compatible in a Chaos magick sense.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:50 PM

Can I add Neville Godard's Law of Assumption here?

@MorganBlack

I hadn't read this but I can see how that context would be super helpful for Lots of people! I don't wonder at all (now) why you liked it and found it helpful, there's a good look at it here:

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I would recommend anyone sitting on the fence regarding chaos magick to check out that link. Thanks for bringing this (hopefully) to a lot of folks attention!

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 9:29 AM

I would recommend anyone sitting on the fence regarding chaos magick to check out that link. Thanks for bringing this (hopefully) to a lot of folks attention!

Let add that this book isn't "specifically" about Chaos Magick, and doesn't speak in "magical terminology", oer se, but might be something to check out and see if anything "resonates". Any questions ask here, I'll try to clarify.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:02 PM

Ramsey "Lionel Snell" Dukes stuff is of course kick-ass IMO too! I printed Lots of his essays.
My bad for ommitting him, because he sure was/is one of the early one's to shape the paradigm, er... Meta/Paradigm!

A couple more "early" in the new "meta-paradigm" names sure can include Dave Lee and of course Phil Hine, both of which have made their own contributions. There are lots, but I wanted to give some perspective to the formative few years before launching into the here and now.
I'm not deliberately trying to leave anyone out, just giving a quick picture of the early "scene".

At some point hopefully we'll look under the hood and deconstruct something?

 

[Frater AlNil]

Gotta say I love the [Mod: removed forum link]

When you think about it in reality Kelly and Dee were Chaos Magicians of their time....Thelema was a Chaos Magick movement.. anything where it truly branches off tradition can be seen as Chaos Magick and in my opinion that is progress... Most Magick if not all is working on bringing Chaos ....The multiversal infinite energy and possibilities into order.. Chaos Magis just tend to create their own craft ...often utilising bits and pieces from other traditions and ...we are not all atheist I personally believe the real work of the Goddess has to be like this... It must evolve to prevent stagnation or entropy

 

[Asteriskos]

Glad you stopped by! I sure don't see any issues at all with this. Chaos encompasses everything from Animism through Shamanism right up to everything that has sprung from those foundations. I'm pretty sure it was Ray Sherwin that said something like this: "The only true religion is the OLD religion"! Ray Sherwin is So Damned Underrated, IMO, that's one of the reasons I attempt to point people back There. Let me add that the rules are pretty strict regarding linking to other forums, for what it's worth I had a bit of a learning curve when I was new here, if you would like I'm open to private convo any time by DM. Good points! Thanks again I hope we can do this thing justice!

Post automatically merged: Today at 2:44 PM

Gotta say I love the [Mod: removed forum link]

@Frater AlNil take some time and go through the stuff here:

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Post automatically merged: Today at 3:10 PM

Some practitioners in the second path may eventually commit fully to a single system, moving away from chaos magic entirely to pursue it more deeply.

I agree 100% with this. I consider myself a chaos magician, but I'm drawn strongly to Graeco-Egyptian as well as all kinds of "Folk" magic.
Peter Carroll joined OBOD, Does this mean mutually exclusive, I don't think so.

Post automatically merged: Today at 4:10 PM

With the advent of Liber Null & Psychonaut and Liber Kaos Peter Carroll had added a bit of stuff to make "chaos Magic" a bit more of a stand alone paradigm ( for those mainly early IOT members ), with some content of it's own, such as the "Mass of Chaos" and the other rites that gave the IOT somewhat of a body of "liturgy". Keys like the "chaostar and chaosphere" could be used to resonate with/access the "current". Ideas were crystalizing within the early body of practitioners, more members were starting to Think, this always causes interesting things to occur everywhere it happens, some of the foundational principles like "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" and Belief is a Tool et al, may have started to cross-pollinate beyond the IOT even this early. ( I might have things a little wonky here? ) Any thoughts?

 

[ShadowRogue]

Chaos magic is a great way to get into Hermeticism tbh. I started as a chaos wizard and from my experience, unless you actively avoid it or just never progress further along, you will naturally transition into the Hermetic paradigm from the chaos magic paradigm as you advance as a practitioner. Mind you I'm not saying Hermetic kabbalah, just Hermeticism, I don't need any Jew magic in my All-is-One-is-All.

Well, I think it comes down to your own personal makeup and background.

At the highest level, I'd say that there are two paths that chaos magicians generally go:

1. The "Pure" Chaos Magic Path: This approach emphasizes deconditioning, the practice of adopting different mindsets, paradigms, or magical systems for a set period. For instance, if you’re naturally drawn to witchcraft, you might spend 1-3 months exploring Christian mysticism or animism, studying relevant texts, acquiring necessary tools, and adhering to specific practices. The goal is to remain psychologically flexible, foster personal growth, experiment with new perspectives, and document your insights. Some practitioners even temporarily adopt different economic or political philosophies to avoid rigid attachments to a single identity. While challenging, this path can yield profound insights into magic and is often rewarding for those who embrace it.

2. The Settled Path: Many chaos magicians, after a period of experimentation, gravitate toward 1–3 paradigms that resonate deeply, yield consistent results, and align with their understanding of reality. Over time, regular deconditioning fades, and they focus primarily on these chosen systems. This diversity is why prominent figures in the chaos magic community, whether animists, hermeticists, Hoodoo, Wiccans, Thelemites, shamans, or energy workers, still identify as chaos magicians. I call this chaos magic without deconditioning. If you’re drawn to a specific flavor of chaos magic, you’ll likely find others who share your interests.

Some practitioners in the second path may eventually commit fully to a single system, moving away from chaos magic entirely to pursue it more deeply.

 

[MorganBlack]

ShadowRogue, great stuff !

I'm enough of Buddhist to try not to make any permanent truth claims, so everyone please bear with me as I speak from my own personal framework and experience, and then weave in my eventual centering on animist New World spirit practices. A haunted road I see some other Chaos Magicians like Andrieh Vitimus have also traveled.

For me, you hit on why I feel Chaos Magic works phenomenally well as practical meta-model, without having to go deep into the often opaque philosophies and practices like Vajrayana Buddhism or Neoplatonism to find similar meta-level concepts.

Chaos Magic has a focus on practical sorcery that grounds the practice of magic . Particularly if you start out in our culture's Post-Enlightenment materialistic scientific consensus that tells you magic is not real. (And that you're just a fleshy meat robot. And art is cheesecake.) Bringing about change in external reality enough times will be far more meaningful for your practice than anything else I can think of. Once you've broken through that barrier, then the rest is just gravy.

I'm mostly a traditional grimoire guy these days. It was using the G.V. where I experienced the most useful theophanic manifestations, but I also don't think it's the end-all-be-all. When I was starting out, I needed to "break materialism," and Goetia was how I originally needed to do it.

I was just saying this the other day. I'm Gen-X, so younger people have no idea what the ambient culture was like in the 1980s and 1990s., before the internet. When I started, all we had available : Crowley, early classic Chaos Magic, the Golden Dawn, some scraps of the grimoires, a bit of brujeria, a pack of smokes, and a fuck-it attitude.

All this stuff was all considered trash by the monoculture. So as Gen-Xers, we rifled through the dumpster of history, tried it all out, and re-discovered the spirit world. Something the materialistic scientific overculture said does not exist. After that it was off to the races.

 

[Asteriskos]

Some practitioners even temporarily adopt different economic or political philosophies to avoid rigid attachments to a single identity. While challenging, this path can yield profound insights into magic and is often rewarding for those who embrace it.

Reminds me of Joel Birocco's thoughts about living on the street, becoming very adept at living by one's wits alone and then calling ones self a Chaos Magiciam. That's just some points I recall from some time ago, not trying to exactly quote him here. Him and Hakim Bey (Peter Lamborn Wilson) have voiced some similar thoughts, (If memory serves)? Excellent points here!

 

[Frater AlNil]

Glad you stopped by! I sure don't see any issues at all with this. Chaos encompasses everything from Animism through Shamanism right up to everything that has sprung from those foundations. I'm pretty sure it was Ray Sherwin that said something like this: "The only true religion is the OLD religion"! Ray Sherwin is So Damned Underrated, IMO, that's one of the reasons I attempt to point people back There. Let me add that the rules are pretty strict regarding linking to other forums, for what it's worth I had a bit of a learning curve when I was new here, if you would like I'm open to private convo any time by DM. Good points! Thanks again I hope we can do this thing justice!

Post automatically merged: Today at 2:44 PM

@Frater AlNil take some time and go through the stuff here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:10 PM

I agree 100% with this. I consider myself a chaos magician, but I'm drawn strongly to Graeco-Egyptian as well as all kinds of "Folk" magic.
Peter Carroll joined OBOD, Does this mean mutually exclusive, I don't think so.

Post automatically merged: Today at 4:10 PM

With the advent of Liber Null & Psychonaut and Liber Kaos Peter Carroll had added a bit of stuff to make "chaos Magic" a bit more of a stand alone paradigm ( for those mainly early IOT members ), with some content of it's own, such as the "Mass of Chaos" and the other rites that gave the IOT somewhat of a body of "liturgy". Keys like the "chaostar and chaosphere" could be used to resonate with/access the "current". Ideas were crystalizing within the early body of practitioners, more members were starting to Think, this always causes interesting things to occur everywhere it happens, some of the foundational principles like "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" and Belief is a Tool et al, may have started to cross-pollinate beyond the IOT even this early. ( I might have things a little wonky here? ) Any thoughts?

Sorry I reread the rules I am new here and made a mistake I was trying to link to a book by the DKMU about the use of the LS Sigil I thought it was allowed because I saw other books on here... But yeah the DKMU is a great branch of Chaos Magick and I see it around alot now ...creating Memes and GIFs with Magickal intention...

I use the classical Agrippa squares to create flicker rates on a gif editing program basically odd black even white... Place in the frames and run it fast... You can then input a sigil as a subliminal within or you can have instead of black and white simply a picture of the sigil and then use negative image to create the B/W Odd Even flicker... Combined with incense and binaural beats can certainly take you to some strange places.. and repeatable too.
But recently I am just using simple candles triangle and mirror Goetia work as it's quick and does the Job I need... To me Chaos Magick is just being set to no particular path but using them all and experimenting like an alchemist...
This may be the longer route as it's more abraxian than the LHP or RHP routes but overall I think it brings far more equilibrium and power to your game.. I have seen some crazy stuff unfold and the idea of the LS or Linking Sigil is genius..

 

[Asteriskos]

I use the classical Agrippa squares to create flicker rates on a gif editing program basically odd black even white... Place in the frames and run it fast... You can then input a sigil as a subliminal within or you can have instead of black and white simply a picture of the sigil and then use negative image to create the B/W Odd Even flicker... Combined with incense and binaural beats can certainly take you to some strange places.. and repeatable too.
But recently I am just using simple candles triangle and mirror Goetia work as it's quick and does the Job I need... To me Chaos Magick is just being set to no particular path but using them all and experimenting like an alchemist...
This may be the longer route as it's more abraxian than the LHP or RHP routes but overall I think it brings far more equilibrium and power to your game.. I have seen some crazy stuff unfold and the idea of the LS or Linking Sigil is genius..

Great stuff, chaos magicians were cutting edge bringing technology into magick and vice versa!
Super interesting Frater AlNil. Does "AlNil" have any bearing on W.G. Gray's "OMNIL" formula?

I've got a program called "ChaosHex" that uses a similar type of flicker theme to create a state of "gnosis" to fire the intent of a rite.
The only caveat with it is that it's a "nix" shell script (though a Very Cool one) I'm All NIX (Bill doesn't live here anymore) and most folks are WinDoze'ers, and I'm not going to port it. (I didn't write it, but I could port it if I cleared it with the original author). Strangely it's origin I believe was in a DOS script of the same name. If any nix'ers are interested it's freely available here:

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More great stuff coming in than I could have hoped for when I started this thread. Awesome!