"Gatekeeping"

[Wintruz]

While inconsistencies are the stock in trade for uninitiated humans, the inconsistency of seeking the mysteries while simultaneously complaining about "gatekeeping" is so glaring that even the most sleepy robot-mind must feel something is off. The idea of gatekeeping has metastasised too. I'm a die-hard meritocrat and the Law is for All: I'm perfectly content to give what fuel I can to those who I judge likely to do something with it, but it seems those who complain about gatekeeping or "elitism" would like to prohibit any personal capacity for judgement. The line between this and "I'm entitled to be spoon fed your energy and what you've worked hard to understand" barely exists. This is the application of unquestioned "rights" politics (they never say who bestows these "rights" interestingly enough) to the realm of initiation.

Alongside all of this often comes the collapse of any standards of quality or distinction. The elaborate, fusty titles of the old secret societies were best thrown on the bonfire, but the principle they expressed, that not everyone is at the same level, that some are further along than others, is an eternal principle. Those at the, now untitled, bottom of the ladder are the least served by this collapse of distinction because the very signposts towards which they could work have been removed. And so we have a total lack of initiatory objectivity. A funny feeling while listening to YouTube has become "a partial kundalini awakening". Magic is essentially understand as a branch of psychotherapy, that is, a tool to analyse the robot rather than transcend the robot. Ancient gods, whose very names communicate the deepest truths, can be evoked one after the other for reasons which are not entirely clear but which I'd hazard have more to do with escapism than a search for truth.

I can only speak for myself. Despite the fangs and forked-tail, I am a pretty laid-back Leo who'd like to be more open about my own journey, yet I increasingly find myself in the unasked for role of firefighter and curmudgeon. Not only here (though increasingly here) but dealing with occult-interested people generally. And this is without even considering the tripe presented as somehow connected with the Left Hand Path. Maybe there are questions for me to answer about the suitability of this forum for me or even engaging at all with others not directly on my own path.

While I'm thinking that over, here are some truths which I'd like those thinking about DMing me to ruminate over before clicking "Message". Idiots will read them as an expression of hate, the intelligent will see they are words of love.

• You are entitled to nothing. This is a metaphysical as well as social postulation and meditating on it will reveal many truths.
• If you think you're not asleep, you're more deeply asleep than one who recognises themselves to be sleeping.
• Truths or "secrets" cannot be communicated verbally. They have to be unlocked by you alone and they're hard won.
• Those who know, recognise others who know.
• If you accept a lower or false experience as the experience, you cheat only yourself.
• If you accept a title you haven't earned, you cheat only yourself.
• Interrogating the quality of an experience strengthens it. It doesn't need wrapping in cotton-wool.
• You and your experiences are probably not as interesting to others as to you.
• Who you are when you're alone late at night is a much better guide to where you are than a thousand Llewellyn books or divinations.
• Not everything is the same thing in a different language. Syncretism and correspondences were a project of classical scholars. So was bloodletting with leeches.
• Initiation isn't a supermarket. Not everything is for you to sample. Not every door is open to you.
• Don't DM me if the answer can be found on Google.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

I've found that generally, the people who complain about gatekeeping are the ones the gate is meant to keep out.

All that aside, you do have some pretty decent guidelines for people asking for knowledge/advice, especially of the esoteric varieties. I do sometimes give advice or help people if the mood strikes me, but generally I won't do much without being asked and being informed of the situation and desired outcome. And while I am open to people directly asking me for help/advice, not too many people do. I also need to write up my backlog of basic rites and meditations to put in the tutorials section because I came up with quite a few useful things for people to initiate themselves with.

 

[Wildchildx11]

I think this refers partially to me, I did mention elitism in another topic in regards to silence.

I still realize I need to develop the foundation over myself, I'm building up a stable foundation, but as of now I'm one of those who is unable to get past the gate. It's because of me, not elitism and it's hard to see it first hand, but the first step of working on it is acknowledging it and working with trauma.

As of now, I think I realize I'm not ready for the gate to be opened, former initiatory orders and stuff and I hope to be someday.

I think I made a comment about elitism and it was from before of my ego and realized that I would have been unable to get past the gate and I have a little bit to work on, which I hope to do before that gate will open. I hope I am able to.

 

[KjEno186]

There is a lot to digest in this post, and I'm thankful that you took the time to write it. At no time in history have magicians had more access to the wealth of knowledge in the form of books than ever before. And yet, as our forum librarians can tell you, the requests for 'something else' never seem to end and often end in 'tears' for those individuals seeking the obscure (and unscanned) rare new books by esoteric authors. Does one feel 'left out' when those few unobtainium-laced bound volumes remain tantalizingly out of reach?

Now I know this might not be exactly what you're going on about, but my take on your post is that there is a sense of entitlement to be found among a good portion of magicians. Initiation should be 'painless' and results should be 'guaranteed' somehow, and it all depends on those 'gatekeepers' to be less stingy, somehow.

If there is a secret, it is this:

"In order to get an adequate return from a book—or any other activity—you have to put an adequate amount of energy into it. [...] And where mental activities are concerned—reading, listening to music, even making love—the preparation consists of an initial act of focusing, of weighing up the value of the prospective activity. If there are half a dozen new books at the side of my armchair in the evenings, I shall almost certainly get less pleasure out of them than if there was only one. Because I shall be inclined to chop and change, and I shan’t put sufficient ‘preparedness’ into anyone of them." - Colin Wilson​

​

I am a pretty laid-back Leo who'd like to be more open about my own journey, yet I increasingly find myself in the unasked for role of firefighter and curmudgeon.

I'm stealing part of this, "I am a pretty laid-back...curmudgeon."

 

[Wildchildx11]

I've found that generally, the people who complain about gatekeeping are the ones the gate is meant to keep out.

All that aside, you do have some pretty decent guidelines for people asking for knowledge/advice, especially of the esoteric varieties. I do sometimes give advice or help people if the mood strikes me, but generally I won't do much without being asked and being informed of the situation and desired outcome. And while I am open to people directly asking me for help/advice, not too many people do. I also need to write up my backlog of basic rites and meditations to put in the tutorials section because I came up with quite a few useful things for people to initiate themselves with.

I agree with this. I think I did make a comment about elitism back in a comment about how silence wasn't necessarily in the modern era because I believed and felt strongly that knowledge should be shared and did make a comment about elitism or something as part of that thread.

Looking back at it and questioning those views, realistically, I am one of those who the gate is meant to be kept out. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I need a stable foundation.

It's hard when you start breaking yourself down and realize that you have ego, you have trauma, you get reactive and you aren't as spiritually advanced as you previously thought. It makes you wonder if you are making any progress at all when you realize you have to start from square one and acknowledge what people don't want to acknowledge, the issue is you, and I have a lot of issues that I don't want to acknowledge.

I like to think people can grow and change and where they are at one stage in their path, doesn't mean they are going to be stuck there and the gate when closed is going to remain closed.

 

[HoldAll]

And yet, as our forum librarians can tell you, the requests for 'something else' never seem to end and often end in 'tears' for those individuals seeking the obscure (and unscanned) rare new books by esoteric authors. Does one feel 'left out' when those few unobtainium-laced bound volumes remain tantalizingly out of reach?

Exactly.

As someone who has only taken a few steps on the magical path so far, I have come to realize that advanced occult books keep their secrets, not because the secret is hidden somewhere in the text - the sigils, the incantations, the rituals are all there for every reader to see, after all - but because a beginner just wouldn't understand them, still less profit from them, without a proper foundation. You could repeat all those impressive words aloud and stare at those sigils until the cows come home and it won't do you any good.

Whenever someone requests the latest overpriced coffee-table grimoire by Miskatonic Press, Three Hands Press, etc., I can't help but wonder if these requesters routinely read such works as exotic fairytale books while being completely clueless but mildly thrilled and entertained. I don't feel even competent enough to determine the value of these books when we somehow manage to get our hands on a scan, or assess if they're worth their overblown price at all.

The knowledge is all out there but the secrets protect themselves very effectively, no gatekeeping required when it comes to occult information.

 

[Taudefindi]

the principle they expressed, that not everyone is at the same level, that some are further along than others, is an eternal principle

Isn't it the same with even the mundane things too though?Everyone starts a newbie, some maybe knowing a bit more, some being a literal blank canvas, and with time and effort everyone starts learning at their own pace.

Truths or "secrets" cannot be communicated verbally. They have to be unlocked by you alone and they're hard won.

The gnosis.

At no time in history have magicians had more access to the wealth of knowledge in the form of books than ever before.

Not only because of the advent of the internet but also due to the spread of literacy.Remember that in the old ages, being able to read and write wasn't for everybody, only few people could(or were even allowed to) do so, so in a way magic also was about scholarly knowledge.

the requests for 'something else' never seem to end and often end in 'tears' for those individuals seeking the obscure (and unscanned) rare new books by esoteric authors.

The pain of realizing that people don't even bother with searching about a book to see if it is rare or not, before requesting it...or just don't care and think that we can simply make such books show up as if by magic...

I don't feel even competent enough to determine the value of these books when we somehow manage to get our hands on a scan, or assess if they're worth their overblown price at all.

I personally don't care much about those books.I believe there must be a reason for their price and rarity, but honestly there isn't much in them(in my opinion) that you can't already get from other books already.

The knowledge is all out there but the secrets protect themselves very effectively, no gatekeeping required when it comes to occult information.

People think they'll find a millenia-bound tome with the secrets of immortality or power and simply ignore thr regular books that they always see or hear about but ignore because "those books are boring!".

 

[Wintruz]

I think this refers partially to me, I did mention elitism in another topic in regards to silence.

This post was not about you but I am getting rather bored with you turning every post on this website into an interminable monologue about yourself.

No excuses. Do better.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

The knowledge is all out there but the secrets protect themselves very effectively, no gatekeeping required when it comes to occult information.

The metaphor I always use is sex. You can read about sex as much as you want, but you aren't going to make any progress unless you actually do some. Before then, you are basically your own gatekeeper

 

[Xenophon]

The metaphor I always use is sex. You can read about sex as much as you want, but you aren't going to make any progress unless you actually do some. Before then, you are basically your own gatekeeper

Quoth Woody Allen, "I'm great at sex: I practice a lot when I'm alone."

 

[Roma]

Truths or "secrets" cannot be communicated verbally. They have to be unlocked by you alone and they're hard won.

Truth is a reification - the quality of being true to some context/relationship is turned into a thing, independent of context.

Leaving that aside, I have little time for those that do not work hard.

Recently there was a nice woman that used to visit me. She was posted into the human race to assist, but she would not practice effective spiritual disciplines. So that was the end of that relationship.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Quareia gets accused of gatekeeping sometimes which is hilarious because it's all available free online.

The specific issue is that Josephine has (imo) a very smart policy. People in the Apprentice section do not get answers to any of their questions. If you keep a diary (a simple one - "12 May. Meditated 15 minutes") then you can submit that and show you've done the Apprentice part, and then you get free mentoring.

Free mentoring at ANY stage: incredibly generous!

But r/Quareia is absolutely swamped with beginners asking questions that are answered in the FAQ. And Josephine is right not to waste time on them, because thousands of people ask obvious questions and don't make it past the first lesson or two. You don't have to prove you're a master magician to get access to the free mentoring and initiate community, you just have to be willing to put in some consistent effort. Josephine is incredibly forgiving and even encouraging of people making mistakes. That's another reason she doesn't give people help at that stage: make the mistakes at the Apprentice level when you won't get burned to badly. If you're so fearful of making a mistake that you won't attempt without someone holding your hand, then yeah, you're not a good fit for Quareia.

There's no gatekeeping imo. The gate is wide open - but you have to actually walk through it yourself.

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2024

People also sometimes get angry because they will say "I have two newborn babies and I'm in medical school, so I don't have time to read the books or meditate, can I still do Quareia?" and Josephine will say, "No, it doesn't sound like you could do Quareia at the moment, wait till you've got fewer life commitments. Quareia will be here for you whenever you're ready."

And some people get furious at her for that, for basically just being honest about the fact that something takes time and effort.

People are used businesses who will do anything to try and get a customer. They'll be like "so, sell me on why I should do Quareia." And they are confused and angry by her "I don't have to make an effort to sell you on this, it's here, it's free, take it or leave it."

Honestly people's reactions to Josephine McCarthy are such a Rorschach test. It's really fascinating. Not that anyone has to love her, but the negative reactions are generally people being triggered by not being pandered to. Keep an eye out next time you see someone saying they don't like her or they get bad vibes from the school. 99% of the time they're telling on themselves.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Quareia ... Almost forgot about that.

 

[KjEno186]

Leaving that aside, I have little time for those that do not work hard.

Recently there was a nice woman that used to visit me. She was posted into the human race to assist, but she would not practice effective spiritual disciplines. So that was the end of that relationship.

But Roma, you have plenty of time to make posts to this forum, it seems. Since no one has accused you of 'gatekeeping', I'm not sure how topical your anecdotes are to this thread. Please make your points relevant to the original poster's intent.

 

[Wildchildx11]

I'm someone who has been gatekept out of occult orders in the past by an initatory order who then claimed "Your Guardian Angel contacted me and advised you to not practice Magick until the age of 25", I didn't really listen to that, because I didn't really believe it and it was kind of an excuse. It was sometime in 2015.

I don't handle rejection well, I wasn't really led to a path. I just kind of started studying and trying to self-initiate myself. It can be traumatic for the person to be denied from a formal initiatory order and I would advise to at least refer people to an occult or pagan group that could better correspond with their level of spiritual development and what they need to work on and learn, because I understand now why I was rejected, don't give them some bullshit about their Guardian Angel contacting them in a dream saying I shouldn't get involved in Magick, I felt lied to.

I think gatekeeping is okay, but realize that if you don't actually lead someone seeking answers to where they need to go, often they aren't going to hold off on Magick and just go away, they'll learn it without a teacher. In a perfect world, people would just not focus on the spiritual and be able to exist just focusing on material things but this isn't a perfect world.

Now I'm actually doing the work, incorporating meditation, learning not to make excuses, but back then I had other things going on, I had to learn the hardway. I have a lot that is repressed that I'm trying to deal with and clear up, it's not my fault and I'm not blaming me, I'm not blaming the occult group. Someday more paths will open, but I'm emotionally delayed and do feel immature. I don't have my shit together. I can make a rational judgement, but from the other end, it does affect you being denied.

Person denied is still going to do magick, they'll just be self-taught without a master.

 

[Shaman]

This post is too high knowledge for me but you gave some useful tips! I am not offended by it hence making me not an idiot.

 

[Rowena]

Personally, I don't have a problem with gatekeeping, kept to a reasonable level, it serves a useful purpose.

I do it - I have long been picky about who I will and won't work with, and as I've older (and more irascible) I've got more picky - and I just don't see a problem with that.

Wizard Forums does it - restricting downloading or posting unless you've registered & logged-in is an entirely reasonable level of gatekeeping, and again I just don't have a problem with it - without it this site could end up as a free-for-all open sewer like 4Chan.

Most membership groups do it, and in my experience it's only a problem when the narcissist, the insecure, or other malignant personality types end up in charge - they always seem to end up gatekeeping in favor of yes-men, regardless what they claim to be doing.

 

[Lazarus]

Well… to paraphrase Tupac:

Real mages do what they want, bitch mages do what they can.

If you’re asking for permission, you’re probably not ready

 

[WonderFire]

Your words have been of great help to me, so thank you for that and I hope you continue posting.
You're lit your flame and raised it high, attracting a few moths is inevitable.

As for gatekeeping in general- I've found mysteries protect themselves. Reading a text before and after doing its practices is almost completely different experience. The practice itself might have requirements that unlock it, like a certain state of mind or soul. This is why I don't trust secret lodges as a method of gatekeeping. Undeserving person can attain entry into the lodge through guile even though it doesn't benefit them at all. All of their pretensions at attaining the mystery (or mastery) is a sham. This in turn weakens the lodge as a whole and sets of a chain reaction of more undeserving new arrivals. I'd say this is not an uncommon thing among occult groups, not that any of them would admit to it.

Most membership groups do it, and in my experience it's only a problem when the narcissist, the insecure, or other malignant personality types end up in charge - they always seem to end up gatekeeping in favor of yes-men, regardless what they claim to be doing.

Agreed. Bad actors (not just incompetents) getting ahold of a group and gatekeeping sane people out is also a problem. Another reason why I don't trust profane gatekeeping methods.