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Book Discussion Goetic Liturgy JSK
- Thread starter Alysa
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Talk about a book(s)
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Goodness, I hope not. I realize that JSK has a massive following and reputation, but it's hard to imagine why after reading this drivel. What he describes has little or nothing to do with "Goetia," if by that you mean conjuring spirits. Instead, you get some some poetic speeches into which are sprinkled liberal doses of Crowley-inspired barbarous words. Two things you should definitely NOT expect from using this manual are actual spirits being summoned and any practical effects whatsoever.
I have. The Grimorium Verum is my go-to grimoire, and has been since the 1990's. I have put it to to good and very dramatic effect, and my understanding of the daimons , as well as myself, have evolved considerably since then.
Just to be clear, I primarily work in a Folk Catholic mythic framework that is a little more Solomonic than what Jake is doing, but going back to a what Geotia's Greek pagan roots as a sort of 'paleo-Geotia' is a viable approach. That said, the spirits will not recognize nor respond to any and all pagan god names, but they do to the names and structure Jake proposes.
It might even but helpful to see them less as slavering demons from Hell, but as something a little closer to pagan divinities. But turning them (back?) into pagan gods like the Demonaltors like to do is also not necessarary.
To make more sense of it I recommend the rest of JSK's entire 'Encyclopaedia Goetica' series, as well as the chap handbooks from Haden Press, mixed a little with a Lisiewski's "subjective synthesis" as being helfpul. As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke."
And.
"The spirits, who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
And.
"The spirits do not always appear in the same form. This is because they meld themselves out of the secret matter, from all matter and for this reason, they need something to lend them a body in order to appear to us, and can take the shape and form that appeal to them.
Beware lest they frighten you."
AndI;ve noticed they sure do like to terrify people whos still have Fundemanetalist Christian lurking in their own subconcious, as many magicans and neopagans still do. That said a little caution is warrented.
Just to be clear, I primarily work in a Folk Catholic mythic framework that is a little more Solomonic than what Jake is doing, but going back to a what Geotia's Greek pagan roots as a sort of 'paleo-Geotia' is a viable approach. That said, the spirits will not recognize nor respond to any and all pagan god names, but they do to the names and structure Jake proposes.
It might even but helpful to see them less as slavering demons from Hell, but as something a little closer to pagan divinities. But turning them (back?) into pagan gods like the Demonaltors like to do is also not necessarary.
To make more sense of it I recommend the rest of JSK's entire 'Encyclopaedia Goetica' series, as well as the chap handbooks from Haden Press, mixed a little with a Lisiewski's "subjective synthesis" as being helfpul. As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke."
And.
"The spirits, who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
And.
"The spirits do not always appear in the same form. This is because they meld themselves out of the secret matter, from all matter and for this reason, they need something to lend them a body in order to appear to us, and can take the shape and form that appeal to them.
Beware lest they frighten you."
AndI;ve noticed they sure do like to terrify people whos still have Fundemanetalist Christian lurking in their own subconcious, as many magicans and neopagans still do. That said a little caution is warrented.
Wow BellaHell I truly appreciate your detailed reply!! JSK’s work is so inspiring to me and Goetic Liturgy really resonated with me and honestly tugged at my heartstrings a bit. I am a devotee of Hecate and his Invocation to Hecate inspired me so much as well as his Invocation to Astaroth.
Hadean Press is awesome!! I will definitely take your advice and would like to speak to you more if possible.
My main objective is building relationships with these spirits and energies and I do enjoy the ritual aspect to it. Thank you again!!
Hadean Press is awesome!! I will definitely take your advice and would like to speak to you more if possible.
My main objective is building relationships with these spirits and energies and I do enjoy the ritual aspect to it. Thank you again!!
My pleasure, Alysa!
I am more than happy to share my perspective on practicing Goetia. The more the merrier, i say. I will check back here or you can reach out to me off channel.
I was not aware Jake, as Faria said above, had a massive following and reputation. As a Gen-Xer figuring things out, I had already practiced Goetia before Jake's writing, but he made me appreciate the ancient origins of the Arte. Jake made my Verum wands and his approach into a sort of Greco-Goetia is totally valid entry point, meaning the daimons do respond to it. They also respond to a Judeo-Catholic mythic framework. As Jake once said, there are many valid points of entry into the Verum "system."
Let me add I do not believe there are any experts in Goetia any more than one can be an "expert" in being a good friend, in having kindness, or "expertly" enjoying music. Internet occultism likes to make Magic (as esotericism, or maybe theosis) , and by extension Goetia (sorcery) , into a skill field , when it is first a knowledge field - then an immersion field (as in a let-go -and-get-caught-up-in field (think music or video games here ) - and only then is Goetia a relationship field, when then maintaining the relationships with the daimons comes into play (and who have come to play, heh!)
And I do think there are many entry points and means to Goetia as there are in human relationships - but within certain mythic framworks that form a recognized language for communication in human-daimon interdimensional relationships. But who knows? I can only talk about what I have observed and other Gen-X magicans, as the first generation to have a means of mass communication with each other in the Anglo-phone world, , with members of the interantional community, including of the ATR's. From there we were we able to share notes and experinces. I am more than happy talk about my experinces, and what I THINK is going on, from having made my tragic mistakes, and also had mind-blowing experinces, and lived a far more amazing life than I would have without the daimons.
And although I feel self-gradiosity should be cationed against (mostly becasue it destroys immersion) through that sharing, and cross-comparison maybe, and very maybe, we might identify very general rules of thumb for the Arte. I think this is what Jake, and other Goen like myself have alwasy wanted. We want people to experiment ... evreyone, and thereby add to the sum of human experince.
I know I am just a voice onthe internet, but I am being very truthful when I say that Goetia totally lives up to it's reputation.
I am more than happy to share my perspective on practicing Goetia. The more the merrier, i say. I will check back here or you can reach out to me off channel.
I was not aware Jake, as Faria said above, had a massive following and reputation. As a Gen-Xer figuring things out, I had already practiced Goetia before Jake's writing, but he made me appreciate the ancient origins of the Arte. Jake made my Verum wands and his approach into a sort of Greco-Goetia is totally valid entry point, meaning the daimons do respond to it. They also respond to a Judeo-Catholic mythic framework. As Jake once said, there are many valid points of entry into the Verum "system."
Let me add I do not believe there are any experts in Goetia any more than one can be an "expert" in being a good friend, in having kindness, or "expertly" enjoying music. Internet occultism likes to make Magic (as esotericism, or maybe theosis) , and by extension Goetia (sorcery) , into a skill field , when it is first a knowledge field - then an immersion field (as in a let-go -and-get-caught-up-in field (think music or video games here ) - and only then is Goetia a relationship field, when then maintaining the relationships with the daimons comes into play (and who have come to play, heh!)
And I do think there are many entry points and means to Goetia as there are in human relationships - but within certain mythic framworks that form a recognized language for communication in human-daimon interdimensional relationships. But who knows? I can only talk about what I have observed and other Gen-X magicans, as the first generation to have a means of mass communication with each other in the Anglo-phone world, , with members of the interantional community, including of the ATR's. From there we were we able to share notes and experinces. I am more than happy talk about my experinces, and what I THINK is going on, from having made my tragic mistakes, and also had mind-blowing experinces, and lived a far more amazing life than I would have without the daimons.
And although I feel self-gradiosity should be cationed against (mostly becasue it destroys immersion) through that sharing, and cross-comparison maybe, and very maybe, we might identify very general rules of thumb for the Arte. I think this is what Jake, and other Goen like myself have alwasy wanted. We want people to experiment ... evreyone, and thereby add to the sum of human experince.
I know I am just a voice onthe internet, but I am being very truthful when I say that Goetia totally lives up to it's reputation.
Thank you so very much!! You know of what you speak 
I am right at the beginning as far as actually working the Goetia as JSK writes about and built his life around. I am so in awe of all of your experiences and knowledge and grateful to have met you here. I would certainly like to speak privately.
I have had several experiences with several Daemons during my research and reading up on their history, correspondences, etc. Definitely captured my attention.
JSK made your wand?!??! Omgeeeeee! How fabulous is that. So looking forward to talking more.
I am right at the beginning as far as actually working the Goetia as JSK writes about and built his life around. I am so in awe of all of your experiences and knowledge and grateful to have met you here. I would certainly like to speak privately.I have had several experiences with several Daemons during my research and reading up on their history, correspondences, etc. Definitely captured my attention.
JSK made your wand?!??! Omgeeeeee! How fabulous is that. So looking forward to talking more.
- Joined
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- 151
Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple fo Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experinces have now been cast into a dital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and haveI left to start my own business. Release and production sheddules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare thier own experinces to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple fo Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experinces have now been cast into a dital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and haveI left to start my own business. Release and production sheddules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare thier own experinces to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
Pardon the technical glitch. The forum showed my logged in a Bella Hell. Re-posting the above to clrar up any confusion, Mea culpa!
-----------------------------
Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple pf Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experiences have now been cast into a digital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and have I left to start my own business. Release and production schedules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare their own experiences to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
-----------------------------
Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple pf Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experiences have now been cast into a digital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and have I left to start my own business. Release and production schedules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare their own experiences to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2024
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- 53
- Reaction score
- 151
If I was just starting out approaching the daimons through Verum, and the practice of Goetia in general, I hope someone would tell me the daimons firstly appreciate sincerity. Come as you are, and engage honestly as you would with anything you feel is important to you.
When approaching them it helps to know you are on a mythic journey. Some of the ritual framework make no sense from a rationalistic left-hemispheric perspective , but take on whole new importance when you think of the rituals l as protocols of inter dimensional diplomacy that get their attention, and then create a space for them to meet us. The mythic space is made of stories -and the world is a mythic space.
FYI, for deep discussion of this point, that we are in, and are always in , parts of The Imaginal, see Patrick Harpur’s excellent book ‘The Secret Tradition of the Soul, (2011). I stumbled upon this fact of our existence myself, but I am an artist, so we all eventually get there.
I know some approach the daimons through more Abrahamic mythic framework, and others through more Greco-Egyptian mythic framework, but both can work just fine.
The daimons tend to mold themselves according to our expectations , our mythic framework and our character. So having good character is very worthwhile here. Jake said hanging good character is like having a super power. Part of having good charter is keeping your word.
To that end, I would strongly caution be absolutely sure to hold up your end of any pacts you enter into, and keep your promises to them, even if you don’t totally believe in them, like I didn’t when starting out. They are not demons from Hell - but they are liminal beings and not all together safe. I will eventually relate a personal story from one of my early fumbling attempts at Goetia around age 25, and experiencing a pretty dreadful "getting your finger burned" as Jake tend to call our lapses in maintaining good protocol with them.
You also get difference manifestations depending on the ritual protocols you are using. well as the ritual we are using. Daimons approached through the Lesser Key are more cerebral and surreal. Using Verum they are much more solid, also darker. I imagine they are more like cerebral, thoughts, when using the modern ‘transvocation’ style of evocation like GoM. But I hear that works well too. You call even them while thinking they are aliens, they will appear as UFO and little grey men.
It really depends on what you’d like to experience. Keep your promises and you will be fine.
When approaching them it helps to know you are on a mythic journey. Some of the ritual framework make no sense from a rationalistic left-hemispheric perspective , but take on whole new importance when you think of the rituals l as protocols of inter dimensional diplomacy that get their attention, and then create a space for them to meet us. The mythic space is made of stories -and the world is a mythic space.
FYI, for deep discussion of this point, that we are in, and are always in , parts of The Imaginal, see Patrick Harpur’s excellent book ‘The Secret Tradition of the Soul, (2011). I stumbled upon this fact of our existence myself, but I am an artist, so we all eventually get there.
I know some approach the daimons through more Abrahamic mythic framework, and others through more Greco-Egyptian mythic framework, but both can work just fine.
The daimons tend to mold themselves according to our expectations , our mythic framework and our character. So having good character is very worthwhile here. Jake said hanging good character is like having a super power. Part of having good charter is keeping your word.
To that end, I would strongly caution be absolutely sure to hold up your end of any pacts you enter into, and keep your promises to them, even if you don’t totally believe in them, like I didn’t when starting out. They are not demons from Hell - but they are liminal beings and not all together safe. I will eventually relate a personal story from one of my early fumbling attempts at Goetia around age 25, and experiencing a pretty dreadful "getting your finger burned" as Jake tend to call our lapses in maintaining good protocol with them.
You also get difference manifestations depending on the ritual protocols you are using. well as the ritual we are using. Daimons approached through the Lesser Key are more cerebral and surreal. Using Verum they are much more solid, also darker. I imagine they are more like cerebral, thoughts, when using the modern ‘transvocation’ style of evocation like GoM. But I hear that works well too. You call even them while thinking they are aliens, they will appear as UFO and little grey men.
It really depends on what you’d like to experience. Keep your promises and you will be fine.
Nice to meet you Morgan!! So sorry just getting back to answer. I am grateful for any guidance from you and I will definitely check out The Secret Tradition of the Soul that you mentioned.
I am not completely comfortable calling upon Angels to conjure Demons as in the Solomonic structure and would like to conjure them on their own. Have you done this without Angels? Do you think this is okay?
Is there a way to email you from this forum?
thank you!!
Please accept my apologies…I am at work and took a break to respond hahaha. That is why so short. I will take more time this weekend.
I am not completely comfortable calling upon Angels to conjure Demons as in the Solomonic structure and would like to conjure them on their own. Have you done this without Angels? Do you think this is okay?
Is there a way to email you from this forum?
thank you!!
Post automatically merged:
Please accept my apologies…I am at work and took a break to respond hahaha. That is why so short. I will take more time this weekend.
Last edited:
- Joined
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- 53
- Reaction score
- 151
Nice to meet you too, Alysa! No worries!
Oh, I hope no rules are bent or broken too much is rules to talk about another book in a book thread, but I added
Patrick Harpur's 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' to this new thread.
wizardforums.com
Hi Alysa!
You asked a straight forward question and I wish I had as straight forward an answer! The short answer is “no,” angels are not required. This is a huge topic so apologies if this is a bit rambly - but you need something that is angelic.
As as a divine being you can fulfill that role, but until you fully grow into that (which is what life itself is for) , it helps to have intercessionary spirits to help here. The old way was the Abramelin rite to make contact with you Holy Guardian Angel , but this too is a fraught topic
Jake famously said he "Does not do angels," but I think that was his way to carve out a space for a less spirit-hostile approach than the more Solomonic method. There is a place for that, and a time to take a strong hand, but Jake also made the point that a lot of the Abrahamic approach are really for the magician, and less about the spirits.
I get you. I do not work with angels in my Goetia either, but do invoke the Day of the Week, angelic planetary invocations (prayers) from the Heptameron. I am also a Folk Catholic after I experienced a profound Apparition of Mary who function in her role as Queen of the Angels - - but Hecate is a similar goddess here, and can work in a similar intermediary fashion to make sure everybody is on their good behavior. (Apologies to any more exoteric Catholics here for calling Mary a goddess.)
Angels are optional, but not altogether a bad idea. The angels enter into Judaism from the time of the Babylonian Captivity, and from there into Christianity, but they are very ancient and precede both. The angels are very ancient and they represent - or stand up for - harmony out of chaos, unity, and the idea of order. The trick will be to find less Abrahamic ritual structure that expresses the same core pattern or idea (i.e the Platonic Form, or the Idea), in your own ritual language that fulfills and ritualizes the same cognate idea expressing the same core universal idea we might also see in the very D&D Lawful-Good alignment.
That said, working Verum, and Goetia you are taking a mythic Journey into the Underworld, and beware of which myths you activate. As i say, beware of the myths you are living. They tend to take on a life of their own, which is a feature not a bug. As yourself is the myth you are living now is working for you. If so, I recommend keeping it, if not, change it.
You are stepping into ritual just as ritual is stepping into you. And not everything in the Underworld is your friend, so some caution is advised. Once you have made contact the daimons can be you allies and fend off the other beings that live there. I do not want to fear monger here, but evocation is not without it;s dangers. See the section where Jake compare the task of the goes to the classic shamanic Underworld journey and the shamans power of invisibility to avoid detection. I wish I remember which book he wrote that
The daemons approached though Verum protocls are not evil but they can be a little Chaotic, a bit rambunctious, which is what makes them fun,. Jake makes the the Underworld is probably the actual primal matrix of creation, the Primal Chaos, and not from some super-celestial overworld,
Pardon if this sounds preachy! You may know this already. You, Alysa , are the feeling and experiencing end of a enormous Chain of Manifestation, as we all are. What you say, what you dream, gives form to the Ineffable. You give shapes to the daemons though you beliefs and action and the words you say. I will say there is a real benefit to mythologizing some organizing principle for your own life. What is that core consciousness which gives meaning to your life? You can feel it now. And you can create a mythic language for it to express it in ritual. For Hermeticists it is was Hermes or Christ as the Logos, but I feel it can be anything that speaks to the idea of bringing order and meaning to the Primal Chaos.
Jake also made the point, and I agree, that daimons of the underworld and the angels of the sky are the same class of being. In his work he talks about a very old Solar Pantheism are the overreaching myth that the people who worked Goetia and wrote the grimoires.
Jake pointed out that the archangel Michael , as one manifestation of the Solar Demuirge, and there are other but here he is not so much the enemy of demons, as in his famous statue where he is crushing Satan under his foot, but instead he is their boss., and is better seen here as giving a stern warning to a unruly underling.
For good pointers I like Nick Ferrel’s Helios Unbound for a more pagan Solar Demiurge in the form of Helios-AION.
wizardforums.com
Working more Solomonic is totally valid approach. I caution getting caught too up in harsh cosmic dichotomies, among the Gen-X magicians who worked this way I noticed a very short life if you insist on making them ferocious, slaving Left-Hand demons from an anti-cosmic “Reverse Tree of Life.”
Jake hated that pseudo-Satanic stuff and called it “Dark Fluff.”
Oh, I hope no rules are bent or broken too much is rules to talk about another book in a book thread, but I added
Patrick Harpur's 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' to this new thread.
Book – EPUB/MOBI - Patrick Harpur - The Secret Tradition of the Soul (2011)
Patrick Harpur's 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' is a book I feel it should be read by all occultists, and magicians, including neopagans, and anyone who works in Mythic Space. This book ideally should be read along with Harpur's book 'Daimonic Reality,' and Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A...
wizardforums.com
Post automatically merged:
Hi Alysa!
You asked a straight forward question and I wish I had as straight forward an answer! The short answer is “no,” angels are not required. This is a huge topic so apologies if this is a bit rambly - but you need something that is angelic.
As as a divine being you can fulfill that role, but until you fully grow into that (which is what life itself is for) , it helps to have intercessionary spirits to help here. The old way was the Abramelin rite to make contact with you Holy Guardian Angel , but this too is a fraught topic
Jake famously said he "Does not do angels," but I think that was his way to carve out a space for a less spirit-hostile approach than the more Solomonic method. There is a place for that, and a time to take a strong hand, but Jake also made the point that a lot of the Abrahamic approach are really for the magician, and less about the spirits.
I get you. I do not work with angels in my Goetia either, but do invoke the Day of the Week, angelic planetary invocations (prayers) from the Heptameron. I am also a Folk Catholic after I experienced a profound Apparition of Mary who function in her role as Queen of the Angels - - but Hecate is a similar goddess here, and can work in a similar intermediary fashion to make sure everybody is on their good behavior. (Apologies to any more exoteric Catholics here for calling Mary a goddess.)
Angels are optional, but not altogether a bad idea. The angels enter into Judaism from the time of the Babylonian Captivity, and from there into Christianity, but they are very ancient and precede both. The angels are very ancient and they represent - or stand up for - harmony out of chaos, unity, and the idea of order. The trick will be to find less Abrahamic ritual structure that expresses the same core pattern or idea (i.e the Platonic Form, or the Idea), in your own ritual language that fulfills and ritualizes the same cognate idea expressing the same core universal idea we might also see in the very D&D Lawful-Good alignment.
That said, working Verum, and Goetia you are taking a mythic Journey into the Underworld, and beware of which myths you activate. As i say, beware of the myths you are living. They tend to take on a life of their own, which is a feature not a bug. As yourself is the myth you are living now is working for you. If so, I recommend keeping it, if not, change it.
You are stepping into ritual just as ritual is stepping into you. And not everything in the Underworld is your friend, so some caution is advised. Once you have made contact the daimons can be you allies and fend off the other beings that live there. I do not want to fear monger here, but evocation is not without it;s dangers. See the section where Jake compare the task of the goes to the classic shamanic Underworld journey and the shamans power of invisibility to avoid detection. I wish I remember which book he wrote that
The daemons approached though Verum protocls are not evil but they can be a little Chaotic, a bit rambunctious, which is what makes them fun,. Jake makes the the Underworld is probably the actual primal matrix of creation, the Primal Chaos, and not from some super-celestial overworld,
Pardon if this sounds preachy! You may know this already. You, Alysa , are the feeling and experiencing end of a enormous Chain of Manifestation, as we all are. What you say, what you dream, gives form to the Ineffable. You give shapes to the daemons though you beliefs and action and the words you say. I will say there is a real benefit to mythologizing some organizing principle for your own life. What is that core consciousness which gives meaning to your life? You can feel it now. And you can create a mythic language for it to express it in ritual. For Hermeticists it is was Hermes or Christ as the Logos, but I feel it can be anything that speaks to the idea of bringing order and meaning to the Primal Chaos.
Jake also made the point, and I agree, that daimons of the underworld and the angels of the sky are the same class of being. In his work he talks about a very old Solar Pantheism are the overreaching myth that the people who worked Goetia and wrote the grimoires.
Jake pointed out that the archangel Michael , as one manifestation of the Solar Demuirge, and there are other but here he is not so much the enemy of demons, as in his famous statue where he is crushing Satan under his foot, but instead he is their boss., and is better seen here as giving a stern warning to a unruly underling.
For good pointers I like Nick Ferrel’s Helios Unbound for a more pagan Solar Demiurge in the form of Helios-AION.
Book – PDF - [Scan] Helios Unbound: Pagan Theurgy to Connect to Your Higher Genius – Nick Farrell – Available Now
Here is my first scan of the book. Don't know if I missed anything but overall it came out pretty good. Link is here *** Hidden text: You do not have sufficient rights to view the hidden text. Visit the forum thread! *** Enjoy! Helios Unbound by Nick Farrell
wizardforums.com
Working more Solomonic is totally valid approach. I caution getting caught too up in harsh cosmic dichotomies, among the Gen-X magicians who worked this way I noticed a very short life if you insist on making them ferocious, slaving Left-Hand demons from an anti-cosmic “Reverse Tree of Life.”
Jake hated that pseudo-Satanic stuff and called it “Dark Fluff.”
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Wow…thank you so much for linking the books you recommend!! You have definitely give me a great deal to think about and explore.
When I first started out I was very drawn to the angelic and I do still enjoy their energy and intuitive guidance. Archangel Raphael especially. I was also drawn to Archangel Samael (though some consider demonic I do not- that’s a looonnnnggg story to explain my perception of him). My very first invocation was to Archangel Samael, I should say my attempt hahaha. I followed directions from yet another book I will not mention here, I should say I followed correspondences related to him and planetary hours but the ritual I designed myself (or so I tried). Did not know at the time that the incense I mixed according to his correspondences was in essence “tear gas”. OMGAHHHHH that was truly something else hahaha. I expected it to be a bit spicy but oh my word!!! Needless to say I could not complete the ritual for the almost immediate opening of every sinus opening I have, nose, eyes and mouth. Woooowee! All in an enclosed space. That was a mess…thought I would suffocate from coughing endlessly and nose running rampant along with oh so many tears. **Not the authors fault MY FAULT- out of excitement and ignorance I did not read the entire book in which author warned about Samael’s incense. That was about 6 years ago. Sometime after that I was drawn to Hecate and started working with her.
I do not personally believe in the whole Satanist drama stemming from religion or some of the LHP. Do I believe Satan is a real force- YES so many years upon years of people believing and feeding into that energy. My personal perception.
I have had several experiences where I was drawn to demons (Orabas and Belial) and while researching them heavily had very UNEXPECTED experiences…is this normal?? While researching Orobas I had a very detailed dream of meeting with him and speaking with him, I would like to go into detail but also want to maintain privacy out of respect to Orobas if that makes sense. This is why I wanted to speak with you privately With Belial I was actually doing some curse work and out of the blue he came through and and said one sentence related to the curse work and my heart dropped into my tummy when this happened. Needless to say I was thrown completely off kilter and did not finish the working.
He was not mean or scary just VERY blunt and to the point. And I was like ooookkaayy got it! These are the kind of experiences I was hoping to discuss with you further as well as actually forging relationships through ritual work with these powerful spirits. I am in awe…and JSK’s work really has fired up a desire in me to work with them and get to know them as allies, mentors and teachers. For me I am (I do not like the terminology much) eclectic and work in I guess you would say gray area. **The “tear gas” incident was a while ago and was a VERY good teaching and learning moment for me- definitely stuck with me hahaha. Now in the present time I have no fear (should I??) of Demonic only respect and reverence….and a desire to learn and experience more.
When I first started out I was very drawn to the angelic and I do still enjoy their energy and intuitive guidance. Archangel Raphael especially. I was also drawn to Archangel Samael (though some consider demonic I do not- that’s a looonnnnggg story to explain my perception of him). My very first invocation was to Archangel Samael, I should say my attempt hahaha. I followed directions from yet another book I will not mention here, I should say I followed correspondences related to him and planetary hours but the ritual I designed myself (or so I tried). Did not know at the time that the incense I mixed according to his correspondences was in essence “tear gas”. OMGAHHHHH that was truly something else hahaha. I expected it to be a bit spicy but oh my word!!! Needless to say I could not complete the ritual for the almost immediate opening of every sinus opening I have, nose, eyes and mouth. Woooowee! All in an enclosed space. That was a mess…thought I would suffocate from coughing endlessly and nose running rampant along with oh so many tears. **Not the authors fault MY FAULT- out of excitement and ignorance I did not read the entire book in which author warned about Samael’s incense. That was about 6 years ago. Sometime after that I was drawn to Hecate and started working with her.
I do not personally believe in the whole Satanist drama stemming from religion or some of the LHP. Do I believe Satan is a real force- YES so many years upon years of people believing and feeding into that energy. My personal perception.
I have had several experiences where I was drawn to demons (Orabas and Belial) and while researching them heavily had very UNEXPECTED experiences…is this normal?? While researching Orobas I had a very detailed dream of meeting with him and speaking with him, I would like to go into detail but also want to maintain privacy out of respect to Orobas if that makes sense. This is why I wanted to speak with you privately With Belial I was actually doing some curse work and out of the blue he came through and and said one sentence related to the curse work and my heart dropped into my tummy when this happened. Needless to say I was thrown completely off kilter and did not finish the working.
He was not mean or scary just VERY blunt and to the point. And I was like ooookkaayy got it! These are the kind of experiences I was hoping to discuss with you further as well as actually forging relationships through ritual work with these powerful spirits. I am in awe…and JSK’s work really has fired up a desire in me to work with them and get to know them as allies, mentors and teachers. For me I am (I do not like the terminology much) eclectic and work in I guess you would say gray area. **The “tear gas” incident was a while ago and was a VERY good teaching and learning moment for me- definitely stuck with me hahaha. Now in the present time I have no fear (should I??) of Demonic only respect and reverence….and a desire to learn and experience more.- Joined
- Nov 18, 2024
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Hi Alysa,
Wow! I think you're re being modest! You are doing so much more than most , and getting out of the armchair! Well done!
Honestly it sounds like you' re dong great! Seriously! Working Goetia you are taking on a mythic journey. The making of the wands, the First Character, the implements, foming a relationship with Scirlin and the other daimons they are deep mysteries, and are best approached, imho, as one does a very good play, or a great artwork. Though Verum (and the grimoires) we are manufacturing a virtual, interdimensional, diplomatic embassy that is made of mythic language, embeded symbols and stories, to communicate with entities that were never human.
Ritual is half you and half this externalized drama of Verum. And the most importaant half is is your end of mythic journey becasue you are the one who is on it. And it is for for you and you alone. I recommend not turning to anyone, including me, for interpretation. If I knew you well, you background, maybe I could probably usefully add to, but remember this is a road we travel alone. But we can stop at the Inn for coffee and good conversation about it.
UPG warning. This is my take about what is going one, but there are probably other takes that also useful.
The daimons are very real, but they also manifest through the mind of the summoner i to what I think of as Human-centric Space.
The world is also made half by us, appearing as it does becasue of the limitation of our little monkey minds, and half by The Mystery. Evocatio , if done well , the daimons can and lso show up in your room near you, as solid and real any any human, or a chair. I know it may sound crazy but it's true. I will also add to this dramatic physical evocations are abosolutely not ncessary for them to get the work done. Even if you do not see them, treat them as if they are presentb and give them tasks to accomplish. And be sure to pay them. Keep you promises.
They can be chatty. They will tell you a lot of things, but also remember most (all?) of them have never been human, and don't totally understand human timelines and limitations. I think people get too caught up trying to decode what they are saying but it's usually just confirmtion bias for what they want to hear. I feel they should still listened to but treat whatt they say as poetry, as drama, and not prose, or a scientific statement of fact.
They are wonderful and rambunctious lot. In my view they are the Western equivalent of Wrathful Buddhas. Jake said the same thing once, saying they are there to burn the gunk off you soul. I recommend calling with specific tasks in mind, charging them to get things done-in-the-world (sorcery), working out an exchange , then pay them their work , but also recognize you will be changed by interacting with them. It may be a little scary but in time you will look back and see you're before dealing with with them then after. You will be stronger, more yourself, And they may give you powers. But do not gasp after these things.
For people near the start of this journey, I hope this talk between Jake and Aequus Nox is helpful. This is Jake at his most kind.
Goetia, Grimorium Verum, Conjuration with Jake Stratton-Kent | Barbarous Words with Aequus Nox
Oh, just to cross-post useful info here. I added a report by Conjureman Ali of hoodoo spell-work style of working with the daimons, that was posted in 2011 to Jake's Verum group of the now default Yahoo Group.
wizardforums.com
Wow! I think you're re being modest! You are doing so much more than most , and getting out of the armchair! Well done!
Honestly it sounds like you' re dong great! Seriously! Working Goetia you are taking on a mythic journey. The making of the wands, the First Character, the implements, foming a relationship with Scirlin and the other daimons they are deep mysteries, and are best approached, imho, as one does a very good play, or a great artwork. Though Verum (and the grimoires) we are manufacturing a virtual, interdimensional, diplomatic embassy that is made of mythic language, embeded symbols and stories, to communicate with entities that were never human.
Ritual is half you and half this externalized drama of Verum. And the most importaant half is is your end of mythic journey becasue you are the one who is on it. And it is for for you and you alone. I recommend not turning to anyone, including me, for interpretation. If I knew you well, you background, maybe I could probably usefully add to, but remember this is a road we travel alone. But we can stop at the Inn for coffee and good conversation about it.
UPG warning. This is my take about what is going one, but there are probably other takes that also useful.
The daimons are very real, but they also manifest through the mind of the summoner i to what I think of as Human-centric Space.
The world is also made half by us, appearing as it does becasue of the limitation of our little monkey minds, and half by The Mystery. Evocatio , if done well , the daimons can and lso show up in your room near you, as solid and real any any human, or a chair. I know it may sound crazy but it's true. I will also add to this dramatic physical evocations are abosolutely not ncessary for them to get the work done. Even if you do not see them, treat them as if they are presentb and give them tasks to accomplish. And be sure to pay them. Keep you promises.
They can be chatty. They will tell you a lot of things, but also remember most (all?) of them have never been human, and don't totally understand human timelines and limitations. I think people get too caught up trying to decode what they are saying but it's usually just confirmtion bias for what they want to hear. I feel they should still listened to but treat whatt they say as poetry, as drama, and not prose, or a scientific statement of fact.
They are wonderful and rambunctious lot. In my view they are the Western equivalent of Wrathful Buddhas. Jake said the same thing once, saying they are there to burn the gunk off you soul. I recommend calling with specific tasks in mind, charging them to get things done-in-the-world (sorcery), working out an exchange , then pay them their work , but also recognize you will be changed by interacting with them. It may be a little scary but in time you will look back and see you're before dealing with with them then after. You will be stronger, more yourself, And they may give you powers. But do not gasp after these things.
For people near the start of this journey, I hope this talk between Jake and Aequus Nox is helpful. This is Jake at his most kind.
Goetia, Grimorium Verum, Conjuration with Jake Stratton-Kent | Barbarous Words with Aequus Nox
Post automatically merged:
Oh, just to cross-post useful info here. I added a report by Conjureman Ali of hoodoo spell-work style of working with the daimons, that was posted in 2011 to Jake's Verum group of the now default Yahoo Group.
JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)
I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...
wizardforums.com
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Again…thank you so much!! It is like a breath of fresh air being able to talk about some of my experiences.
I have always been drawn to the occult and esoteric and started really studying and practicing meditation, four fold breath, etc back in the 90’s. Along with researching and reading various books and articles. Then my career path took precedence and I truly stepped away for a long time. Life happened as well and I had no time to devote to pursuing further until about 6 years ago. I went through a true dark night of the soul and was broken spiritually, emotionally and physically. Very very dark time. I was drawn to the Archangels and actually took a class on Solomonic Magick which was truly awesome and thorough. Then about a year or so later took a class on Hecate. All throughout the classes, practicing what I could and researching I began to be very drawn to the Goetia…and started researching and JSK’s work came up again and again. So I started reading some of his work and was so impressed and enamored that I know this is a path I want to take. Time and space is my biggest issue. I’m up at 3:30 to 4am and usually not home until 4:30. By the time I get home I’m kind of wiped out. I carve out time for reading and daily practice, along with offerings etc. to Hecate. I’m also working on getting my Master Level in Reiki- LOVE Reiki healing!!! I have been initiated in Level 1 & 2.
So this is where I am currently. I will certainly watch the video and get back to you thank you so much Morgan!!
I have always been drawn to the occult and esoteric and started really studying and practicing meditation, four fold breath, etc back in the 90’s. Along with researching and reading various books and articles. Then my career path took precedence and I truly stepped away for a long time. Life happened as well and I had no time to devote to pursuing further until about 6 years ago. I went through a true dark night of the soul and was broken spiritually, emotionally and physically. Very very dark time. I was drawn to the Archangels and actually took a class on Solomonic Magick which was truly awesome and thorough. Then about a year or so later took a class on Hecate. All throughout the classes, practicing what I could and researching I began to be very drawn to the Goetia…and started researching and JSK’s work came up again and again. So I started reading some of his work and was so impressed and enamored that I know this is a path I want to take. Time and space is my biggest issue. I’m up at 3:30 to 4am and usually not home until 4:30. By the time I get home I’m kind of wiped out. I carve out time for reading and daily practice, along with offerings etc. to Hecate. I’m also working on getting my Master Level in Reiki- LOVE Reiki healing!!! I have been initiated in Level 1 & 2.
So this is where I am currently. I will certainly watch the video and get back to you
thank you so much Morgan!!- Joined
- Nov 18, 2024
- Messages
- 53
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- 151
Aww, you poor thing! I am so sorry you were having a hard time of it! I hope things are better now! I am also so sorry all this stuff can be so confusions. Super big kudos do knuckling down, learning and practicing. That is all we all ever did. You are in good company!
I am so sorry you were having a rough time! Magic (meaning actual sorcery, not what Crowley meant by the word, which is better called ‘mysticism’) can be even more tough to learn these days mo becasue ofinternet occultism and "witchcraft" praying to the Goddess of Instagram. . I am happy to talk to you offline not sure how to so that here. Let figure that out. But again I caution against letting anyone interpret your experiences with the daimons… including me!
I hope all this next bit is useful, I never know if it helps or a hindrance.
Speaking a little from my formative occult experiences that still inform my Goetia practice. I was a member of the OTO and hanging out with the Vodou community in Texas and New York. In the Vodou perceptive, taught to me by my hougan, Hougan Aboudja, who would sometimes talk about “his Ogou” or “their Met Kalfu” – meaning there was an understanding in Vodou that there are many Ogus, and many Met Kalfus.
And in Santeria they will speak of ‘caminos” or ‘paths’ of each of the various spirits. They have a more “one spirits but with many moods” kind of model, which is pretty useful here too.
In my interpretation what you are getting when you evoke them different manifestation, here above, of Belial, and are getting a modulation of him, are is simialr but also different from the Belial someone else who calls him might get. but there still an entity we call Belial. In very practical sense the Belial you get is “your Belial” can either be seen as a local manifestation of what we might kinda Marvel Comics way call Belial Prime (ha!). We might even think that there are many, many Belials , that all communicate an 'essence of Belialness.' Or even that Belial Prime creates, or emits Belial, a more localized se;f for you - a daimon creating it's own diamon, so as maybe a Child of Belial (heh!) , or whatever.
But no need to invent even more occultism terminology . In the end all this is theological speculation and means very little because on a practice eevel how you get different manifestation (caminos) of Belial (or one of many different Belials) is the same.
In Vodou there is a recognition you will get a different manifestations of the spirits depending on how you approached them in ritual. If you call them using setting gunpowder, blowing whistles, spraying in raw sugarcane alcohol infused with hot peppers, and playing fast-tempo aggressive music you get aggressive “hot” manifestations of the lwa.
If you call Belial with hot peppers and alcohol, and punk rock, odds are you will get a hotter more active manifestation that if you call him with honey in spring water (hydromel), and psalms, and Gregorian chants. If you are aggressive and hostile, expect them to be aggressive and hostile. I guess if you expect them to show up as thoughts in your mind you will that too. If you expect them to shoul us “energy”-- they’ll be happy to oblige.
So that Belial is "your Belial", but is also Belial. See Halpur's talk of "double-vision" in his book 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul.'
Anyway, I keep meaning to locate of write up again a ritual I did employing Guland, and the shocking , wonderful, and very amazing experience that happened AFTER he came though on the objective (a bit of wrathful sorcery to remove a toxic executive from a famous game company). I am loathe to write it up these days and add to all the i-Dark Fluff on the internet where everyone and their dog is having amazing experiences with the daimons who just show up in their very active, drug-fueled imagination. I posed it back in 2014 to JSK’s Verum Yahoo group, but can’t seem find my magical journa from that time period.
Best to you!
Morgan
I am so sorry you were having a rough time! Magic (meaning actual sorcery, not what Crowley meant by the word, which is better called ‘mysticism’) can be even more tough to learn these days mo becasue ofinternet occultism and "witchcraft" praying to the Goddess of Instagram. . I am happy to talk to you offline not sure how to so that here. Let figure that out. But again I caution against letting anyone interpret your experiences with the daimons… including me!
I hope all this next bit is useful, I never know if it helps or a hindrance.
Speaking a little from my formative occult experiences that still inform my Goetia practice. I was a member of the OTO and hanging out with the Vodou community in Texas and New York. In the Vodou perceptive, taught to me by my hougan, Hougan Aboudja, who would sometimes talk about “his Ogou” or “their Met Kalfu” – meaning there was an understanding in Vodou that there are many Ogus, and many Met Kalfus.
And in Santeria they will speak of ‘caminos” or ‘paths’ of each of the various spirits. They have a more “one spirits but with many moods” kind of model, which is pretty useful here too.
In my interpretation what you are getting when you evoke them different manifestation, here above, of Belial, and are getting a modulation of him, are is simialr but also different from the Belial someone else who calls him might get. but there still an entity we call Belial. In very practical sense the Belial you get is “your Belial” can either be seen as a local manifestation of what we might kinda Marvel Comics way call Belial Prime (ha!). We might even think that there are many, many Belials , that all communicate an 'essence of Belialness.' Or even that Belial Prime creates, or emits Belial, a more localized se;f for you - a daimon creating it's own diamon, so as maybe a Child of Belial (heh!) , or whatever.
But no need to invent even more occultism terminology . In the end all this is theological speculation and means very little because on a practice eevel how you get different manifestation (caminos) of Belial (or one of many different Belials) is the same.
In Vodou there is a recognition you will get a different manifestations of the spirits depending on how you approached them in ritual. If you call them using setting gunpowder, blowing whistles, spraying in raw sugarcane alcohol infused with hot peppers, and playing fast-tempo aggressive music you get aggressive “hot” manifestations of the lwa.
If you call Belial with hot peppers and alcohol, and punk rock, odds are you will get a hotter more active manifestation that if you call him with honey in spring water (hydromel), and psalms, and Gregorian chants. If you are aggressive and hostile, expect them to be aggressive and hostile. I guess if you expect them to show up as thoughts in your mind you will that too. If you expect them to shoul us “energy”-- they’ll be happy to oblige.
So that Belial is "your Belial", but is also Belial. See Halpur's talk of "double-vision" in his book 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul.'
Anyway, I keep meaning to locate of write up again a ritual I did employing Guland, and the shocking , wonderful, and very amazing experience that happened AFTER he came though on the objective (a bit of wrathful sorcery to remove a toxic executive from a famous game company). I am loathe to write it up these days and add to all the i-Dark Fluff on the internet where everyone and their dog is having amazing experiences with the daimons who just show up in their very active, drug-fueled imagination. I posed it back in 2014 to JSK’s Verum Yahoo group, but can’t seem find my magical journa from that time period.
Best to you!
Morgan
Hi Morgan- please no need for apologies. My dark night of the soul definitely was a catalyst and a true jumping off point for me as far as my occult studies and practices. It was one of the worst things I have ever gone through BUT I learned SO MUCH about myself and how blessed I truly am. Grateful for EVERYDAY!! And it seemed to open some of my spiritual gifts like in a big way. IMO I think it was also a “brick to the head” type of experience where you just do the dayum thing and get on with it. Hahaha Easy for me to say now that I’m on the other side of it for sure. It was truly like a living death, at the same time it enabled me to see and commune with my dark and ugly side and heal- still healing and growing daily. It also showed me that most of the monsters we battle WE create and it’s not the monsters we can’t see we need to be concerned with but the monsters walking around with us. I am great now, stronger than ever, grateful for my life, my job, my family and a few very close friends. In everything it is quality that counts not quantity- quality of character, loyalty, integrity and honesty.
Talking with you is so very enlightening and I find myself searching and researching and digging into the occult more and more because you inspire me. And I agree 100% the spirits and deities are unique to every one of us and communicate to each of us differently according to who we are and our experiences and personal perceptions of them along with the type of ritual or spell work we are conducting. Our energy sets the tone so to speak.
With the upcoming holidays I want to watch the JSK interview you linked as well as some of his other videos. You know I have had his Geosophia Argo of Magick for a while, it was actually one of the first books I purchased as far as studying the Goetia, and when I first got it I couldn’t really get into it. So I put it back on my bookshelf. Maybe 4 years later I purchased Goetic Liturgy and it was literally like the clouds parted (cue the background music) and that was it- Im addicted. Hahaha I also will have time off during the holidays which is so awesome for reading and some practice…mindful of the retrogrades, etc. With everything there is divine timing.
You have had some amazing experiences and teachers for sure!! To have a compatible mentor is truly priceless. Nothing compares to that in the way of learning and experience.
Will you be doing any ritual work during the holidays? Hope you & your family have a great holiday!!
alysa
Talking with you is so very enlightening and I find myself searching and researching and digging into the occult more and more because you inspire me. And I agree 100% the spirits and deities are unique to every one of us and communicate to each of us differently according to who we are and our experiences and personal perceptions of them along with the type of ritual or spell work we are conducting. Our energy sets the tone so to speak.
With the upcoming holidays I want to watch the JSK interview you linked as well as some of his other videos. You know I have had his Geosophia Argo of Magick for a while, it was actually one of the first books I purchased as far as studying the Goetia, and when I first got it I couldn’t really get into it. So I put it back on my bookshelf. Maybe 4 years later I purchased Goetic Liturgy and it was literally like the clouds parted (cue the background music) and that was it- Im addicted. Hahaha I also will have time off during the holidays which is so awesome for reading and some practice…mindful of the retrogrades, etc. With everything there is divine timing.
You have had some amazing experiences and teachers for sure!! To have a compatible mentor is truly priceless. Nothing compares to that in the way of learning and experience.
Will you be doing any ritual work during the holidays? Hope you & your family have a great holiday!!
alysa