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Book Discussion Goetic Liturgy JSK
- Thread starter Alysa
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Talk about a book(s)
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- Jan 23, 2024
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Goodness, I hope not. I realize that JSK has a massive following and reputation, but it's hard to imagine why after reading this drivel. What he describes has little or nothing to do with "Goetia," if by that you mean conjuring spirits. Instead, you get some some poetic speeches into which are sprinkled liberal doses of Crowley-inspired barbarous words. Two things you should definitely NOT expect from using this manual are actual spirits being summoned and any practical effects whatsoever.
I have. The Grimorium Verum is my go-to grimoire, and has been since the 1990's. I have put it to to good and very dramatic effect, and my understanding of the daimons , as well as myself, have evolved considerably since then.
Just to be clear, I primarily work in a Folk Catholic mythic framework that is a little more Solomonic than what Jake is doing, but going back to a what Geotia's Greek pagan roots as a sort of 'paleo-Geotia' is a viable approach. That said, the spirits will not recognize nor respond to any and all pagan god names, but they do to the names and structure Jake proposes.
It might even but helpful to see them less as slavering demons from Hell, but as something a little closer to pagan divinities. But turning them (back?) into pagan gods like the Demonaltors like to do is also not necessarary.
To make more sense of it I recommend the rest of JSK's entire 'Encyclopaedia Goetica' series, as well as the chap handbooks from Haden Press, mixed a little with a Lisiewski's "subjective synthesis" as being helfpul. As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke."
And.
"The spirits, who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
And.
"The spirits do not always appear in the same form. This is because they meld themselves out of the secret matter, from all matter and for this reason, they need something to lend them a body in order to appear to us, and can take the shape and form that appeal to them.
Beware lest they frighten you."
AndI;ve noticed they sure do like to terrify people whos still have Fundemanetalist Christian lurking in their own subconcious, as many magicans and neopagans still do. That said a little caution is warrented.
Just to be clear, I primarily work in a Folk Catholic mythic framework that is a little more Solomonic than what Jake is doing, but going back to a what Geotia's Greek pagan roots as a sort of 'paleo-Geotia' is a viable approach. That said, the spirits will not recognize nor respond to any and all pagan god names, but they do to the names and structure Jake proposes.
It might even but helpful to see them less as slavering demons from Hell, but as something a little closer to pagan divinities. But turning them (back?) into pagan gods like the Demonaltors like to do is also not necessarary.
To make more sense of it I recommend the rest of JSK's entire 'Encyclopaedia Goetica' series, as well as the chap handbooks from Haden Press, mixed a little with a Lisiewski's "subjective synthesis" as being helfpul. As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke."
And.
"The spirits, who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
And.
"The spirits do not always appear in the same form. This is because they meld themselves out of the secret matter, from all matter and for this reason, they need something to lend them a body in order to appear to us, and can take the shape and form that appeal to them.
Beware lest they frighten you."
AndI;ve noticed they sure do like to terrify people whos still have Fundemanetalist Christian lurking in their own subconcious, as many magicans and neopagans still do. That said a little caution is warrented.
Wow BellaHell I truly appreciate your detailed reply!! JSK’s work is so inspiring to me and Goetic Liturgy really resonated with me and honestly tugged at my heartstrings a bit. I am a devotee of Hecate and his Invocation to Hecate inspired me so much as well as his Invocation to Astaroth.
Hadean Press is awesome!! I will definitely take your advice and would like to speak to you more if possible.
My main objective is building relationships with these spirits and energies and I do enjoy the ritual aspect to it. Thank you again!!
Hadean Press is awesome!! I will definitely take your advice and would like to speak to you more if possible.
My main objective is building relationships with these spirits and energies and I do enjoy the ritual aspect to it. Thank you again!!
My pleasure, Alysa!
I am more than happy to share my perspective on practicing Goetia. The more the merrier, i say. I will check back here or you can reach out to me off channel.
I was not aware Jake, as Faria said above, had a massive following and reputation. As a Gen-Xer figuring things out, I had already practiced Goetia before Jake's writing, but he made me appreciate the ancient origins of the Arte. Jake made my Verum wands and his approach into a sort of Greco-Goetia is totally valid entry point, meaning the daimons do respond to it. They also respond to a Judeo-Catholic mythic framework. As Jake once said, there are many valid points of entry into the Verum "system."
Let me add I do not believe there are any experts in Goetia any more than one can be an "expert" in being a good friend, in having kindness, or "expertly" enjoying music. Internet occultism likes to make Magic (as esotericism, or maybe theosis) , and by extension Goetia (sorcery) , into a skill field , when it is first a knowledge field - then an immersion field (as in a let-go -and-get-caught-up-in field (think music or video games here ) - and only then is Goetia a relationship field, when then maintaining the relationships with the daimons comes into play (and who have come to play, heh!)
And I do think there are many entry points and means to Goetia as there are in human relationships - but within certain mythic framworks that form a recognized language for communication in human-daimon interdimensional relationships. But who knows? I can only talk about what I have observed and other Gen-X magicans, as the first generation to have a means of mass communication with each other in the Anglo-phone world, , with members of the interantional community, including of the ATR's. From there we were we able to share notes and experinces. I am more than happy talk about my experinces, and what I THINK is going on, from having made my tragic mistakes, and also had mind-blowing experinces, and lived a far more amazing life than I would have without the daimons.
And although I feel self-gradiosity should be cationed against (mostly becasue it destroys immersion) through that sharing, and cross-comparison maybe, and very maybe, we might identify very general rules of thumb for the Arte. I think this is what Jake, and other Goen like myself have alwasy wanted. We want people to experiment ... evreyone, and thereby add to the sum of human experince.
I know I am just a voice onthe internet, but I am being very truthful when I say that Goetia totally lives up to it's reputation.
I am more than happy to share my perspective on practicing Goetia. The more the merrier, i say. I will check back here or you can reach out to me off channel.
I was not aware Jake, as Faria said above, had a massive following and reputation. As a Gen-Xer figuring things out, I had already practiced Goetia before Jake's writing, but he made me appreciate the ancient origins of the Arte. Jake made my Verum wands and his approach into a sort of Greco-Goetia is totally valid entry point, meaning the daimons do respond to it. They also respond to a Judeo-Catholic mythic framework. As Jake once said, there are many valid points of entry into the Verum "system."
Let me add I do not believe there are any experts in Goetia any more than one can be an "expert" in being a good friend, in having kindness, or "expertly" enjoying music. Internet occultism likes to make Magic (as esotericism, or maybe theosis) , and by extension Goetia (sorcery) , into a skill field , when it is first a knowledge field - then an immersion field (as in a let-go -and-get-caught-up-in field (think music or video games here ) - and only then is Goetia a relationship field, when then maintaining the relationships with the daimons comes into play (and who have come to play, heh!)
And I do think there are many entry points and means to Goetia as there are in human relationships - but within certain mythic framworks that form a recognized language for communication in human-daimon interdimensional relationships. But who knows? I can only talk about what I have observed and other Gen-X magicans, as the first generation to have a means of mass communication with each other in the Anglo-phone world, , with members of the interantional community, including of the ATR's. From there we were we able to share notes and experinces. I am more than happy talk about my experinces, and what I THINK is going on, from having made my tragic mistakes, and also had mind-blowing experinces, and lived a far more amazing life than I would have without the daimons.
And although I feel self-gradiosity should be cationed against (mostly becasue it destroys immersion) through that sharing, and cross-comparison maybe, and very maybe, we might identify very general rules of thumb for the Arte. I think this is what Jake, and other Goen like myself have alwasy wanted. We want people to experiment ... evreyone, and thereby add to the sum of human experince.
I know I am just a voice onthe internet, but I am being very truthful when I say that Goetia totally lives up to it's reputation.
Thank you so very much!! You know of what you speak 
I am right at the beginning as far as actually working the Goetia as JSK writes about and built his life around. I am so in awe of all of your experiences and knowledge and grateful to have met you here. I would certainly like to speak privately.
I have had several experiences with several Daemons during my research and reading up on their history, correspondences, etc. Definitely captured my attention.
JSK made your wand?!??! Omgeeeeee! How fabulous is that. So looking forward to talking more.
I am right at the beginning as far as actually working the Goetia as JSK writes about and built his life around. I am so in awe of all of your experiences and knowledge and grateful to have met you here. I would certainly like to speak privately.I have had several experiences with several Daemons during my research and reading up on their history, correspondences, etc. Definitely captured my attention.
JSK made your wand?!??! Omgeeeeee! How fabulous is that. So looking forward to talking more.
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2024
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Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple fo Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experinces have now been cast into a dital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and haveI left to start my own business. Release and production sheddules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare thier own experinces to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple fo Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experinces have now been cast into a dital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and haveI left to start my own business. Release and production sheddules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare thier own experinces to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
Pardon the technical glitch. The forum showed my logged in a Bella Hell. Re-posting the above to clrar up any confusion, Mea culpa!
-----------------------------
Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple pf Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experiences have now been cast into a digital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and have I left to start my own business. Release and production schedules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare their own experiences to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
-----------------------------
Aww! ** blush**
Pardon the delay. I was out of town on a short weekend vacation to the beach.
Oh! I hope this is not weird, but I originally signed up with with the BellaHell account so I can lurk here, and maybe see how the broader occult community might be evolving.
I was never going to post here, but you asked so nicely!
OK! I've made a new account - 'MorganBlack' - to use my voice more. (And I'll re-sign in and post here to make it easy to find.)
'Morgan' is my first name, and feels much more honest than some ironic throwaway account.
Brother Moloch is the one person in the occult forums who knows me in online and offline, and who I've known since 2004. I hope he will post here. Moloch had a couple pf Yahoo Groups and Jake had a Verum group . It saddens me tremendously all our posts, thoughts, and shared experiences have now been cast into a digital abyss by Yahoo. * shakes fist*
We all met on the Yahoo Forums a couple fo decades ago. We were mostly Gen-Xers coming out of the 1990's occult scene, except for Moloch and Jake. A number there have gone on to become occult authors. Me, I worked then, and until recently in the video game industry as an concept artist and art director, and have I left to start my own business. Release and production schedules in games are very intense I simply didn't have time to write books, but but did write up reports of my evocation work for other people to compare their own experiences to. Good times!
I hope that provides a little history.
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2024
- Messages
- 2
- Reaction score
- 0
If I was just starting out approaching the daimons through Verum, and the practice of Goetia in general, I hope someone would tell me the daimons firstly appreciate sincerity. Come as you are, and engage honestly as you would with anything you feel is important to you.
When approaching them it helps to know you are on a mythic journey. Some of the ritual framework make no sense from a rationalistic left-hemispheric perspective , but take on whole new importance when you think of the rituals l as protocols of inter dimensional diplomacy that get their attention, and then create a space for them to meet us. The mythic space is made of stories -and the world is a mythic space.
FYI, for deep discussion of this point, that we are in, and are always in , parts of The Imaginal, see Patrick Harpur’s excellent book ‘The Secret Tradition of the Soul, (2011). I stumbled upon this fact of our existence myself, but I am an artist, so we all eventually get there.
I know some approach the daimons through more Abrahamic mythic framework, and others through more Greco-Egyptian mythic framework, but both can work just fine.
The daimons tend to mold themselves according to our expectations , our mythic framework and our character. So having good character is very worthwhile here. Jake said hanging good character is like having a super power. Part of having good charter is keeping your word.
To that end, I would strongly caution be absolutely sure to hold up your end of any pacts you enter into, and keep your promises to them, even if you don’t totally believe in them, like I didn’t when starting out. They are not demons from Hell - but they are liminal beings and not all together safe. I will eventually relate a personal story from one of my early fumbling attempts at Goetia around age 25, and experiencing a pretty dreadful "getting your finger burned" as Jake tend to call our lapses in maintaining good protocol with them.
You also get difference manifestations depending on the ritual protocols you are using. well as the ritual we are using. Daimons approached through the Lesser Key are more cerebral and surreal. Using Verum they are much more solid, also darker. I imagine they are more like cerebral, thoughts, when using the modern ‘transvocation’ style of evocation like GoM. But I hear that works well too. You call even them while thinking they are aliens, they will appear as UFO and little grey men.
It really depends on what you’d like to experience. Keep your promises and you will be fine.
When approaching them it helps to know you are on a mythic journey. Some of the ritual framework make no sense from a rationalistic left-hemispheric perspective , but take on whole new importance when you think of the rituals l as protocols of inter dimensional diplomacy that get their attention, and then create a space for them to meet us. The mythic space is made of stories -and the world is a mythic space.
FYI, for deep discussion of this point, that we are in, and are always in , parts of The Imaginal, see Patrick Harpur’s excellent book ‘The Secret Tradition of the Soul, (2011). I stumbled upon this fact of our existence myself, but I am an artist, so we all eventually get there.
I know some approach the daimons through more Abrahamic mythic framework, and others through more Greco-Egyptian mythic framework, but both can work just fine.
The daimons tend to mold themselves according to our expectations , our mythic framework and our character. So having good character is very worthwhile here. Jake said hanging good character is like having a super power. Part of having good charter is keeping your word.
To that end, I would strongly caution be absolutely sure to hold up your end of any pacts you enter into, and keep your promises to them, even if you don’t totally believe in them, like I didn’t when starting out. They are not demons from Hell - but they are liminal beings and not all together safe. I will eventually relate a personal story from one of my early fumbling attempts at Goetia around age 25, and experiencing a pretty dreadful "getting your finger burned" as Jake tend to call our lapses in maintaining good protocol with them.
You also get difference manifestations depending on the ritual protocols you are using. well as the ritual we are using. Daimons approached through the Lesser Key are more cerebral and surreal. Using Verum they are much more solid, also darker. I imagine they are more like cerebral, thoughts, when using the modern ‘transvocation’ style of evocation like GoM. But I hear that works well too. You call even them while thinking they are aliens, they will appear as UFO and little grey men.
It really depends on what you’d like to experience. Keep your promises and you will be fine.