• Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!

Grimoire Magicians vs. The Tryhards

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
The grims ARE the shortcuts.

Praise for Simon Dyda's The Wandering School of Secrets (Hadean, 2025)

KMlUB6g.jpeg



It's a hard point to make these days, when 99% of everyone else says the opposite. 20th-century modern magic is very focused on a spiritual grind that is really not needed for the grimoires , and is mostly a waste of time for this specific form of magic. So it was a breath of fresh air to read Simon Dyda’s recent book from Hadean. I had read his Grimorium Verum framework and liked it tremendously.

The grimoires do not need 90% of all the tryhard grinding moderns say you have to do. I've been saying for years all you need is your imagination, a story, the names (both of which shape the iteration) and to get caught up in it while following the protocols. So it was nice to have someone say pretty much exactly the same thing, whom I have never met nor interacted with online

Like my other fave form of 'magic' - Neville Goddard's Law of Assumption - all you need is getting caught up in your imagination. With the grims the added elements are a name, story, and following the protocols, as mentioned above.

I will say I like trance becasue it is enjoyable, but yeah, it is also not necessary. Before everyone thinks this is weird, I should point out in in Hoodoo / Southern Conjure they do not go into trance to do the work either. And some structured imagination training is good. But like medicines quadrupling the dose does not make it more effective, and might be detrimental to your long term health.

The Wandering School of Secrets
by Simon Dyda (Headean, 2025)

Chap 2 Highlights

MAGIA VIAM APERIT

A common misconception in modern occultism is that magic
will only start working once the magician has overcome certain
hurdles, such as learning to banish thought through meditation;
correct breathing techniques; the building up or channelling of
esoteric energies; physical and mental exhaustion; the use of
narcotics; the study of psychology and/or neurology; the
fortification of one’s will power; or by developing one’s ‘psychic’
abilities. Other supposed requisites include entering a trance
state, or having an orgasm and then banishing any thoughts
concerning the desired goal.

None of these things are necessary in magic. These hurdles
have been imposed on magic by the mindset of late nineteenth
and early twentieth century hipsters, a mindset which despite its
spiritual and mystic pretensions was so anchored in rationalism
that it could not believe that magic would work without a
struggle. This mindset believed magic to be largely psychological
in nature, that struggle had to be one concerned with
consciousness and state of mind. The trendsetters of the
so-called Occult Revival, rather than seeking out actual
practitioners of Western magic, instead looked to Indian
mysticism for inspiration, blending it with Western mysticism to
create the fridge-raid soup of New Age flakery, neopagan
pantomime, and pseudomasonic pomposity that was
characteristic of twentieth century esotericism and occultism.

According to this mindset, for magic to be real it must be
especially difficult; requiring a trained singlemindedness and
focus and/or some means of bypassing the mind in order to
transcend the laws of physics and ‘nudge probability’ in a
desired direction. If at any point this becomes easy, it should
immediately be made more difficult in order to succeed.

All such statements as these are self-defeating nonsense: no
special powers of focus, concentration, and attention beyond
those required to perform any other task are necessary, and to
engage in any power struggle with one’s own mind is
counterproductive and serves only to undermine the efficacy of
the practitioner.

In traditional practices, magic is worked through an interaction
between the magician and spirits, not through a struggle
between the practitioner and their own mind. The magician
need not hack their way through mental undergrowth in order
to perform magic; instead, magic itself opens the way to magic
magia viam aperit. The only mental tool the magician requires
is the imagination.

The key word in this use of the imagination is immersion.
Anyone who has immersed themselves in a novel or a poem
has experienced this magical state of consciousness in which
perception is altered and extended by the imagination.

Immersion is facilitated by story. When performing magic, the
magician will be calling upon story of one sort or another, be
it in the form of verses from Holy Scripture, the deeds of
deities in mythology, or the use of their epithets. For this
reason it is important to familiarise ourselves with the myths,
legends, or scripture relevant to the spirits we are engaging
with.

Many books on magic contain theories of magic which often
amount to magician apologetics for either a medieval religious
or a modern rationalist audience and are of no practical use
beyond reassuring readers that the practice of magic is a sane
and acceptable pursuit.

We learn from experience that magic works, but we cannot
demonstrate why it works any more than a physicist can
demonstrate why the laws of physics work the way they do.

It is far more productive to accept magic on its own terms,
regardless of how ‘unscientific’ those terms might appear to be.
The magician is not required to believe in magic for it to work;
instead, the magician should disregard the question of belief
entirely.
 

therootbeersprite

Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2025
Messages
67
Reaction score
114
Awards
1
In traditional practices, magic is worked through an interaction
between the magician and spirits
relevant to the spirits we are engaging
with.
Call me a tryhard if you like, but the issue that I see here is a reliance upon outside spirits. If you're not working with other spirits, then you must rely on your own spirit, and the stronger your own spirit is, the stronger your workings can be. Indeed, as Dyda says:
The only mental tool the magician requires
is the imagination.
But the magician needs to strengthen their imagination. It is not a "power struggle with one’s own mind" but working to empower the mind. Just as one would lift weights at the gym to make their muscles stronger, one also needs to exercise their mind to make it stronger. How this is done, however, doesn't need to be as complicated as so many people make it out to be.
 

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
But the magician needs to strengthen their imagination
Well, if they don't have one to start with, sure.

Maybe back in late 19th to mid 20th century all that spiritual grind was required for people then. But we grow up immersed in movies, TV, comics, video games, table top RPGs, childhood bedtime stories, books, zines, and the internet. Just imagine (ha!) how much just learning to drive changes you.

And to add to that, since the 1970's, a child-centric culture. Before then kids were just expected to be miniature grownups.
 

BBBB

Apprentice
Joined
Sep 9, 2023
Messages
67
Reaction score
198
Awards
1
What do you mean by that?
Op presented grimoire magicians as people who push buttons without understanding the inner works, and who are proud of being ignorant. Hence "lamers" vs "programmers", later being people who want to eliminate chance from their magic by learning the inner works. It's hard, sure, since there are no manuals from the creator. But I would dare op to compete with some tibetan mage who has both spirits and trained discipline.
 

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
presented grimoire magicians as people who push buttons
No grim trad magician treats conjuring mechanically. If they do then they probably don't stick around for long. It's much more like play (as in child's play) so that you become immersed in a movie that steps off the movie screen and into your living room and life.
 

KjEno186

Disciple
Benefactor
Joined
Apr 9, 2022
Messages
981
Reaction score
3,121
Awards
15
According to this mindset, for magic to be real it must be
especially difficult; requiring a trained singlemindedness and
focus and/or some means of bypassing the mind in order to
transcend the laws of physics and ‘nudge probability’ in a
desired direction. If at any point this becomes easy, it should
immediately be made more difficult in order to succeed.
This is the Protestant Work Ethic. Basically, the harder you work at something, the more reward you will receive.
 

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
Another variation on the theme. When I talk about conjuring daimons with the grims being a mostly externalized practice, this is it. Glad to see more of it. This is a conversation that has be overdue for far too long.

From David Rankine's recent book, Claves Spirituum.

He re-balances the modern overfocus on psychic training back down into the right mix, and turns down the volume on all those 'gotta-do's' from 11 to about a 2 or 3. That's the right balance for this kind of work, I feel We are here to have the spirits DO things in the world, for us, and to (or for) other people, not for ego-fluffing chit-chat.

--------------------------------------------

Claves Spirituum
Chapter 6 – The Engagement of the Senses in Conjuration

Dr Stephen Skinner once observed that ‘magic is oddly
physical’, and this is very true, as well as being an extremely
important statement. Magic that is just experienced in the head
is fantasy, and does not usually lead to results in the
physical world.

It is worth considering the conjuration process
through the effects experienced by the five senses, and also
when they occur in the practitioners, their psychic extensions
(clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairolfaction, clairgustance and
clairsentience). To be clear – developed psychic senses are not
at all necessary for conjuration, but if you have any they may
be useful, and prolonged work with spirits may encourage any
or all of them to develop. For the skryer, having a level of
clairvoyance or clairaudience certainly makes spirit engagement
easier when the spirit turns up. If you do not consider yourself
psychically sensitive but are able to skry and engage with
spirits, at the least you are employing clairvoyance and
clairaudience. If there is a person present in the guard role,
then any level of developed psychic senses is also very useful
for them, to help pick up on invisible cues to spirit presences.

------------

"I burned reeds, cedar and myrtle branches. The gods smelled
the fragrance, they smelled the sweet fragrance and clustered
around the offering like flies"


- The Epic of Gilgamesh, tablet XI, c.2150-2000 BCE.
Translation by Mitchell, 2004:188.

This quote from the Epic of Gilgamesh demonstrates how
pleasant fragrances were known to attract spiritual creatures
back in the earliest civilization, back in Sumer. This association
continued and was developed further in ancient Egypt, and into
ancient Greece and other cultures. By the Middle Ages, this
view of the association of fragrance with the intangible was so
widespread that some even extended the ability of fragrance to
sustain the human soul as well as being an offering to spirits
and gods


As I discuss elsewhere in this book, fragrance is vital as the
carrier of the words of conjuration and prayer, and may be
seen as the signal wave which transmits them to the conjured
spirit whilst also attracting it with an appealing odour. This is
why the censer or oil burner should be kept burning, to keep
the transmission of the fragrance which is being offered to the
spirit, and this is also why the practitioners having regularly
perfumed themselves with the same fragrance is a sensible
move. In so doing they establish themselves as connected to
the offering as its source.
 

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
That's magnificent, because I use my imagination for everything.
I would say: that works like a charm.

Nice! With the grims and trad witchcraft / goetia / sorcery I think also we're also tapping into a lot of hind-brain, uh, humaness.

And pretty automatically, without having to grind for it. We're using deep patterns we're born with by dint of being spirits with human bodies, with instinctual pattern we inherit by having bodies. I think a lot of witchcraft / sorcery works at that level. Like giving offering. How much is 'energy' and how much of it is just how we humans establish and maintain relationships (and establish right relation to) by giving gifts? It's just what we do.
 

AlfrunGrima

Acolyte
Joined
Aug 22, 2024
Messages
383
Reaction score
938
Awards
8
We're using deep patterns we're born with by dint of being spirits with human bodies, with instinctual pattern we inherit by having bodies. I think a lot of witchcraft / sorcery works at that level.
For me it was always on this level. I remember it well how confused I got when I took part in my first formal rituals because I was and am so intuitive. For me the complete world was magical in all that there exists, in every molecule and cell. I didn't need it to re-enchant my world. There are practitioners however who are in need to do that before having their first moments of succes. The Grims didn't evolve in a not-enchanted world, the world seen by humans was enchanted then. That enchantment purely did exist in their imagination.

(And yes, I learnt to do the magic from the Grims too. It was good to follow for a short time some kind of fixed script. That sparked another part of my imagination)
 

Firetree

Neophyte
Warned
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
44
Reaction score
89
Nice! With the grims and trad witchcraft / goetia / sorcery I think also we're also tapping into a lot of hind-brain, uh, humaness.

And pretty automatically, without having to grind for it. We're using deep patterns we're born with by dint of being spirits with human bodies, with instinctual pattern we inherit by having bodies. I think a lot of witchcraft / sorcery works at that level. Like giving offering. How much is 'energy' and how much of it is just how we humans establish and maintain relationships (and establish right relation to) by giving gifts? It's just what we do.

Indeed . And that is a reason why it ( offerings ) 'work' . There are certain practices we can distill from the complex corpus of religion/ritual that 'work' / resonate / give positive result . Many of these seem based on positive output social interactions - in imagined extension of some type .

Both of these - those simple , distilled, practical , working, practices and aspects of usage and output of the imagination ( the prime human differentiation from other animals ) are things I put a few years study into . However it is mainly in the field of anthropology ....

but now I am extra wary of posting something 'off topic' , so I am not sure how this fits into the topic at hand , although its being discussed .

Patrick Harpur has an interesting book on one of the subjects ; ' The Philospers' Secret Fire - A History of the Imagination .'
 

A.Nox

Visitor
Joined
Jan 16, 2026
Messages
3
Reaction score
24
The grims ARE the shortcuts.

Praise for Simon Dyda's The Wandering School of Secrets (Hadean, 2025)

KMlUB6g.jpeg



It's a hard point to make these days, when 99% of everyone else says the opposite. 20th-century modern magic is very focused on a spiritual grind that is really not needed for the grimoires , and is mostly a waste of time for this specific form of magic. So it was a breath of fresh air to read Simon Dyda’s recent book from Hadean. I had read his Grimorium Verum framework and liked it tremendously.

The grimoires do not need 90% of all the tryhard grinding moderns say you have to do. I've been saying for years all you need is your imagination, a story, the names (both of which shape the iteration) and to get caught up in it while following the protocols. So it was nice to have someone say pretty much exactly the same thing, whom I have never met nor interacted with online

Like my other fave form of 'magic' - Neville Goddard's Law of Assumption - all you need is getting caught up in your imagination. With the grims the added elements are a name, story, and following the protocols, as mentioned above.

I will say I like trance becasue it is enjoyable, but yeah, it is also not necessary. Before everyone thinks this is weird, I should point out in in Hoodoo / Southern Conjure they do not go into trance to do the work either. And some structured imagination training is good. But like medicines quadrupling the dose does not make it more effective, and might be detrimental to your long term health.

The Wandering School of Secrets
by Simon Dyda (Headean, 2025)

Chap 2 Highlights

MAGIA VIAM APERIT

A common misconception in modern occultism is that magic
will only start working once the magician has overcome certain
hurdles, such as learning to banish thought through meditation;
correct breathing techniques; the building up or channelling of
esoteric energies; physical and mental exhaustion; the use of
narcotics; the study of psychology and/or neurology; the
fortification of one’s will power; or by developing one’s ‘psychic’
abilities. Other supposed requisites include entering a trance
state, or having an orgasm and then banishing any thoughts
concerning the desired goal.

None of these things are necessary in magic. These hurdles
have been imposed on magic by the mindset of late nineteenth
and early twentieth century hipsters, a mindset which despite its
spiritual and mystic pretensions was so anchored in rationalism
that it could not believe that magic would work without a
struggle. This mindset believed magic to be largely psychological
in nature, that struggle had to be one concerned with
consciousness and state of mind. The trendsetters of the
so-called Occult Revival, rather than seeking out actual
practitioners of Western magic, instead looked to Indian
mysticism for inspiration, blending it with Western mysticism to
create the fridge-raid soup of New Age flakery, neopagan
pantomime, and pseudomasonic pomposity that was
characteristic of twentieth century esotericism and occultism.

According to this mindset, for magic to be real it must be
especially difficult; requiring a trained singlemindedness and
focus and/or some means of bypassing the mind in order to
transcend the laws of physics and ‘nudge probability’ in a
desired direction. If at any point this becomes easy, it should
immediately be made more difficult in order to succeed.

All such statements as these are self-defeating nonsense: no
special powers of focus, concentration, and attention beyond
those required to perform any other task are necessary, and to
engage in any power struggle with one’s own mind is
counterproductive and serves only to undermine the efficacy of
the practitioner.

In traditional practices, magic is worked through an interaction
between the magician and spirits, not through a struggle
between the practitioner and their own mind. The magician
need not hack their way through mental undergrowth in order
to perform magic; instead, magic itself opens the way to magic
magia viam aperit. The only mental tool the magician requires
is the imagination.

The key word in this use of the imagination is immersion.
Anyone who has immersed themselves in a novel or a poem
has experienced this magical state of consciousness in which
perception is altered and extended by the imagination.

Immersion is facilitated by story. When performing magic, the
magician will be calling upon story of one sort or another, be
it in the form of verses from Holy Scripture, the deeds of
deities in mythology, or the use of their epithets. For this
reason it is important to familiarise ourselves with the myths,
legends, or scripture relevant to the spirits we are engaging
with.

Many books on magic contain theories of magic which often
amount to magician apologetics for either a medieval religious
or a modern rationalist audience and are of no practical use
beyond reassuring readers that the practice of magic is a sane
and acceptable pursuit.

We learn from experience that magic works, but we cannot
demonstrate why it works any more than a physicist can
demonstrate why the laws of physics work the way they do.

It is far more productive to accept magic on its own terms,
regardless of how ‘unscientific’ those terms might appear to be.
The magician is not required to believe in magic for it to work;
instead, the magician should disregard the question of belief
entirely.
I agree with you on one thing completely —

most of the “requirements” modern occultism has inherited are survivals from a psychological model that never fit grimoire magic in the first place.

What I’ve noticed in my own work is that the architecture of the ritual does more than any trance, breathwork, or ego-purification ever could.

When the structure is correct, spirits respond.

When it isn’t, no amount of “grinding” fixes the underlying flaw.

For me the turning point was realizing that immersion is not the same as imagination.

Imagination can be passive.

Immersion reorganizes perception.

And once that switch flips, the spirit contact becomes almost… inevitable.

I’m curious —

in your experience, have you seen people fail not because they lacked “discipline,” but because they approached the ritual from the wrong frame?

Your post hints at something deeper there.
 

FireBorn

Acolyte
Joined
Aug 14, 2025
Messages
320
Reaction score
1,049
Awards
8
I'm not a grimoire guy (everyone knows this lol). But here's what I will say:

If you want Enochian results, you follow the Enochian system. If you want Solomonic results, you follow the Solomonic system. That pattern is consistent for a reason.

I do agree, magick isn’t in the grimoires any more than it is in the wand. It's not the book, it's the contact. Not aimed at you personally @MorganBlack, but the irony here is kinda hilarious: using books to argue that books aren’t necessary. Come on, that’s fucking funny!

Here's my take: the grimoires aren’t just recipes. If they were, every person with a book and a candle would have contact. They don’t. If the mechanical approach worked across the board, we’d see more posts about spirit relationships and less about altar cloth colors and book reports.

I think most people need a scaffolding that they can hold onto without fracturing, especially when they’re trying to do something as insane (and real) as reach through the veil and speak to a spirit. That scaffolding gives them something to believe in while they attempt to believe the impossible. Nothing wrong with that. It’s training wheels for the numinous. I personally think the grimoire should be outgrown at some point. To each their own.

I’ve only met one other practitioner who works like I do, direct contact, no grimoire scaffolding, just the spirit and me. But even then, I respect that others need the grims to access that current. They aren’t lesser for it. It's their door. Again, zero judgement.

So yeah, there’s a middle ground here. Not everything needs to be a hot take. (Stop being so divisive, Morgan sheesh lol 🤣)
 

Asteriskos

Disciple
Joined
Apr 16, 2024
Messages
656
Reaction score
1,045
Awards
12
I’ve only met one other practitioner who works like I do, direct contact, no grimoire scaffolding, just the spirit and me. But even then, I respect that others need the grims to access that current. They aren’t lesser for it. It's their door. Again, zero judgement.

So yeah, there’s a middle ground here. Not everything needs to be a hot take. (Stop being so divisive, Morgan sheesh lo

Simple, Plain, Constructive and Well Said! 🤘
 

MorganBlack

Disciple
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
524
Reaction score
1,259
Awards
8
The grimoires are not mechanical scaffolding. At an fundamental level they're a language to structure communications and get the attention of fundamentally strange and wonderful non-human beings.

Does anyone where play RPG video games? Ever play a game with no narrative or a bad one? It gets boring fast. Without a grim (and without a mythic marrative) you are filling in the ritualized narrative mostly with your own ego content, instead of the bigger narrative that shapes the game we're all playing with the daimons.

I can only speak from my own experience using Grimorium Verum, some of the Grand Grimoire, and a little of the Lesser Key. From what I have seen, the protocols of which grimoire you use - or even your choice to use no grimoire whatsoever - ALL those choices will very much shape your experience with the daimons.

That's why I'm a 'grimoire fundamentalist' (half-joking here) but not a grimoire purist. Even when calling the same names the experience you have will be different depending on which grim you are using, or not. Why? Each is a language that also exists outside your head in the bigger game we're all playing.

Just saying, in this thread, don't assume you know better than the people that came before you, and don't force a lot of post-1900 modern magic hot-takes backwards onto traditional magical practices and make grindfests for those older practices that don't need them.

Patrick Harpur has an interesting book on one of the subjects ; ' The Philospers' Secret Fire - A History of the Imagination .'

Hell yes! ! Harpur's 'Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld' and 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' I consider to be core reading for magicans.
 
Top