Hello to all! Asking for advice.

[At_The_Threshold]

Greetings, my name is Luke and I've been dabbling with magick for about four years now.

I've been very much an armchair magician for a while now, but have very recently begun a daily practice to get the bones moving. One thing I've been really trying to struggle with is finding a suitable magickal/spiritual path. Ceremonial magick seems very appealing for me, but I am less interested in physical results (for now) and more in some sort of greater purpose or drive akin to K&C and/or initiatory structure. The posts on his site have been helpful a bit, but I am still looking.

As for my experience in finding paths, I tried Greer's Hermetic Rose before, had some good experiences with it but dropped it due to the inclusion of the Kybalion (Not really Hermetic) and some strange Alcoholics Anonymus-inspired type stuff (I also began to become really put-off by the stuff he put on his website and wanted to distance myself from him.) I then tried Quaeria but the mediation exercises really fried my brain and stressed me out. I felt really disappointed that I seemed to fail the course, and became really despondent for a time. I then tried the daily "Operant Field" methods (LBRP, LIRH, MPR, daily mediation). Whilst it seemed like a step in the right direction, I began to feel frustrated and bored with the practice. In truth, I should've tried to be more experiemntal, tried some evocation, but I really felt lost and didn't know where and how to seek what I was looking for. I have tried experimental evocation before, but with aims and results that were just embarressing, I would rather not discuss those.

I recently began Jason Miller's daily practises outlined in his Sorcerer's Secrets book. I liked the offering rituals that helped me feel somewhat connected with the spiritual forces around me, and his perspective on mediation was very helpful and encouraging. I was almost going to try his Black School HOWEVER I luckliy managed to find the thread here that showed the flaws of his courses so I decided to stay away.

So here I am. The more desperately hopeful side of me thinks that if I just do enough prayers to the HGA he'll come up eventually and tell me what to do, but I know that is not a realistic outcome. I do not think it was all wasted time though. I really enjoyed the inner adventures and spirit contacts in the Hermetic Rose course (I'm just going to type this with the perspective that it was real and not merely mental projection), but I think it was misguided to try and have elemental beings as spirit guides, as they (from my limited perspective) don't tend to know much outside of the element they reside in.

As for what I would like in an ideal path, I definately want something with a heavy empathsis on evocation. The idea of spiritual knowledge from a preterhuman source really appeals to me. I know this is likely a fantastical projection based on inexperiance, but it is what's on my mind. I am open to and aware of the importance of mediation, but I really don't like the idea of having to practise mediation alone for an extended period (weeks, months) before doing any spirit work. I am aware of how impatient and immature this sounds, and is perhaps something I need to look into, but I think I am just really frustrated with going from path to path and not finding anything that sticks. I am aware that some of this is my fault, my impatience and expectations, but I do feel rather lost here and appreciate some advice.

As for my physical sitation. I have a job, self-emplyoed, am in education, have friends and hobbies. As said before, I am quite fulfilled in physical life and as such am not so much interested in magick for physical results (money, fame, ect) for the moment. I understand a spiritual journey might include works that aim for those things, but I merely wish to highlight the fact that this spiritual hunger comes not from some lack of physical or social things in my own life, but from a much more subtle place that I beileve only a magickal path can cure. I am grateful for any advice and perspectives.

 

[KjEno186]

I am less interested in physical results (for now) and more in some sort of greater purpose or drive akin to K&C and/or initiatory structure.

I think I understand what you mean by this, but I could just be projecting my own needs. For what it's worth, Magic is just one aspect of the broad Occult search for meaning in life. By looking into the Occult (and Magic), we're saying that the materialist world view is not enough to explain our sense of purpose. But we doubt. Faith alone is a poor cousin to proof, especially living in a world where every philosopher has his own book, and an empty stomach is not filled by platitudes. You'll get plenty of armchair philosophy and platitudes in this forum. We're only human, after all.

I myself have looked through part of the FHR course you mentioned. The material largely came from John Gilbert, who was a mentor to JMG. I don't agree with a lot of it. For example, I prefer the Qabalah of Jean Dubuis. I do like the Sphere of Protection, however, as well as the emphasis on divination. I think the divination aspect is the key, because it is a means of connecting one to that "greater purpose" you wrote about. But is it "real"? For this I recommend Colin Wilson's Beyond the Occult. That book has been a rabbit hole into the Spiritist movement for me, and I'm currently enjoying the writings of Allan Kardec, Guy Playfair and Chico Xavier. I don't claim to have any answers or special revelations. I simply know that I've spent most of my life as a strictly materialist thinker. Looking back on my childhood, being raised by religious parents, I never felt a connection to anything spiritual even though I was obligated by them to put on a show of devotion according to their beliefs. I am hoping the journey down the path of the Occult and Magic will provide some interesting scenery, and maybe, just maybe, something more.

 

[At_The_Threshold]

I think I understand what you mean by this, but I could just be projecting my own needs. For what it's worth, Magic is just one aspect of the broad Occult search for meaning in life. By looking into the Occult (and Magic), we're saying that the materialist world view is not enough to explain our sense of purpose. But we doubt. Faith alone is a poor cousin to proof, especially living in a world where every philosopher has his own book, and an empty stomach is not filled by platitudes. You'll get plenty of armchair philosophy and platitudes in this forum. We're only human, after all.

I myself have looked through part of the FHR course you mentioned. The material largely came from John Gilbert, who was a mentor to JMG. I don't agree with a lot of it. For example, I prefer the Qabalah of Jean Dubuis. I do like the Sphere of Protection, however, as well as the emphasis on divination. I think the divination aspect is the key, because it is a means of connecting one to that "greater purpose" you wrote about. But is it "real"? For this I recommend Colin Wilson's Beyond the Occult. That book has been a rabbit hole into the Spiritist movement for me, and I'm currently enjoying the writings of Allan Kardec, Guy Playfair and Chico Xavier. I don't claim to have any answers or special revelations. I simply know that I've spent most of my life as a strictly materialist thinker. Looking back on my childhood, being raised by religious parents, I never felt a connection to anything spiritual even though I was obligated by them to put on a show of devotion according to their beliefs. I am hoping the journey down the path of the Occult and Magic will provide some interesting scenery, and maybe, just maybe, something more.

Hi, Thanks for your response. Perhaps I can give divination a go again, I've been reluctant to use it for this sort of question, since seeking purpose is probably too vague or broad to determine through a mere card spread.

Its very interesting that you mention the Spiritist movement. My mother and grandparents were Brazilian Spiritists and my mother gave me a copy of Kardec's book and kept bugging insisting that I watch a movie about him. I wasn't very impressed by my surface skimming of the book. It seemed too "soft and cuddly." That, and we had already had a bad run-in with an abusive cult-leader masquerading as a spirit-healer. I admit I am rather fixated on spirituality having some transgressive element in order to be palpable or appealing to me (Aghora, Thelema), as immature as that sounds.

I doubt that spiritism will give me something substantial, but since it was the faith of my ancestors (alongside Catholicism), I can at least make an effort to learn more about it on the side.

 

[Konsciencia]

Welcome by the way!

 

[Ziran]

Hi Luke, Welcome to the forum.

I do feel rather lost here and appreciate some advice.

A few things stood out to me when I read your post.

I liked the offering rituals that helped me feel somewhat connected with the spiritual forces around me

liked connection

I really enjoyed the inner adventures and spirit contacts in the Hermetic Rose course

enjoyed connection and adventure

As for what I would like in an ideal path, I definately want something with a heavy empathsis on evocation. The idea of spiritual knowledge from a preterhuman source really appeals to me. I know this is likely a fantastical projection based on inexperiance, but it is what's on my mind. I am open to and aware of the importance of mediation, but I really don't like the idea of having to practise mediation alone for an extended period

connection with something beyond, (fantastic), oneself, evocation, is appealing.

meditation alone is not appealing

Ceremonial magick seems very appealing for me

Is it connection to the fantastic-beyond, the other-realms, which is appealing? Combined ( connected to, hee-hee ) ritual practice?

Druidry? It might be a good fit for you.

 

[At_The_Threshold]

Hi Luke, Welcome to the forum.



A few things stood out to me when I read your post.



liked connection



enjoyed connection and adventure



connection with something beyond, (fantastic), oneself, evocation, is appealing.

meditation alone is not appealing



Is it connection to the fantastic-beyond, the other-realms, which is appealing? Combined ( connected to, hee-hee ) ritual practice?

Druidry? It might be a good fit for you.

Thank you very much for your analysis, I really appreciate it.

At first I thought Druidry wouldn't be a fit for me, since I liked the more "cloistered" aesthetic of ceremonial magic, but I've already been involved with nature alot, being a gardener and horticulture student. I am will to give Druidry a proper look this time. Greer has his own work on this I know I'll encounter and I'll try to put my feelings aside and give it a look as well, and seek out some other sources too. If you have anything on Druidry you'd like to recommend, I'd appreciate it very much.

 

[KjEno186]

wasn't very impressed by my surface skimming of the book. It seemed too "soft and cuddly." That, and we had already had a bad run-in with an abusive cult-leader masquerading as a spirit-healer.

This is very interesting. I can see why you say that, given the culture in which "Kardec" received his answers. The man himself was living in a time when materialist philosophies appeared triumphant, and it was into this same culture that Eliphas Levi published his Doctrine and Ritual of High Magic (aka Transcendental Magic). I find myself attempting to sort out what fits within a 19th century French mind set and how much certain answers in The Spirits' Book remain applicable today.

It is all very new to me. I was completely unaware of the Brazilian Spiritist movement. This is one of the major faults of the English speaking world, in that it tends to ignore (or pretend that it invented) what has been accomplished in other parts of the world. I try to set aside some of my own internal resistance to the things I am reading because I have come to realize that reading only things which comfort biases leads to stagnation.

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Waking from "sleep" suggests exposure to new ideas and reexamining what we thought we knew in new contexts.

I hate cults too. The temptation for abuse is simply too great to trust any so-called leader.

 

[beardedeldridge]

Welcome. My advice - don’t get too caught up in which path (none of them are perfect), others’ views on different paths (if JM’s stuff speaks to you go with it), the apparent predominate world/religious/spiritual/social views of a path’s practitioners, and definitely don’t get caught up in the people (humans are humans some have just seen more of reality). Just pick something up that appeals to you and run with it.

-Eld

Post automatically merged: Nov 29, 2023

Almost forgot - too much research will kill or at least stunt your growth in the beginning. You can’t walk someone else’s path but you can use their path as a springboard to get started.

-Eld

 

[Ziran]

put my feelings aside

If you're looking for advice: I would not set aside your feelings. Often the heart knows before the mind understands.

At first I thought Druidry wouldn't be a fit for me, since I liked the more "cloistered" aesthetic of ceremonial magic,

This is significant. We've gone full circle. Your post began with ceremonial magic, now it has returned to ceremonial magic.

 

[At_The_Threshold]

If you're looking for advice: I would not set aside your feelings. Often the heart knows before the mind understands.



This is significant. We've gone full circle. Your post began with ceremonial magic, now it has returned to ceremonial magic.

Thanks for bringing this up. I have recently realized that I feel more resonance with the urban/Christian tones and aesthetics of Ceremonial Magick than I have with pagan/nature practices. I am not opposed to working with the latter, but I think I can ease myself more with the former, given my inclinations and Catholic upbringing in my early youth.

That's why I was initially so excited to find out about JM's black school. Using the presence of a saint (I have a strange attraction to saint iconography and art, figures with haloes and such) to invoke both angels and demons. I have only listened to the first audio where he talks about the school's non-dual aspect, which intrigues me very much, the ideal of transcending duality. I am aware of others criticisms, but I think I'll listen of more of the recordings, then see if I can work the system out for myself.

I have also heard people claim that the school is akin to an overpriced Goetia 101. Goetic evocation has been on my mind for a while now, I have DuQuette's Illustrated Goetia, which I haven't read in a while, but seems to be a quite straightforward piece on the matter. My main concern is not the evocation itself, but the charge. As I have mentioned before in the first post, it is strange spiritual longing that I am desiring. So if I charge the spirit with "Let me realize my purpose!" or something on the like, I worry it will be too vague to be workable or the entity will just mess my life up so that when I fix the newly created problems I will gain some sense of purpose.

I have heard from others (I think from DuQuette himself) that when evoking a Goetic spirit you are calling for an adventure, and that the Goetia (I think this was another magician) can be a spiritually rewarding system on its own. Hence my interest in it for this particular matter.

So aside from carrying on with my daily practice and seeing if the Black School "really is all that/or at least some." I want to experiment with Goetia, but find the right charge. Is "Let me realize my purpose!" Enough/on the right lines? Do you have any thoughts?

I wanna thank everyone for their comments on this again, its really helpful and I hope it continues to be helpful and insightful for all of us.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Speaking from experience, consider what demons can do for you, that you cannot do yourself. Additionally, you might consider the Shemhamphoresh.

 

[At_The_Threshold]

Speaking from experience, consider what demons can do for you, that you cannot do yourself. Additionally, you might consider the Shemhamphoresh.

I was actually introduced to the Shemhamphoresh by DuQuette's video on "Creating your own Angels." I used one of Kahlil Gibran's poems as a framework and the project remains unfinished. If I peruse the project or use "vanilla" Shemhamphoresh, I think I'll be confused as to where to go from there. There isn't exactly a spirit in the Goetia or Shem that claims "Will aid in solving existential crises" or "Reveal one's magickal mission" but maybe that's hidden between the lies or can only be found be experimentation.

The idea of a personal relationship with the divine is somewhere along the lines of what I want to achieve (If I understand myself), an immensely lofty aim to be sure. But that's what attracted me to HGA work initially. Having a bit of the divine that is inseparable from you and that you can be in regular communion with and can guide you on your life's quest. I know such an aim would take years of devotion to achieve, and since years of supplication in the hopes of a response is not something I want, it will remain in the lines of daily prayers for now. Hence the idea using evocation of a demon, where I have greater chance of a responce (For some reason I feel a demon will be more suited for this task. Like an angel will just tell me to be okay with myself but a demon would be more partial with me wanting more, but that's just my imagination).

Ideally the entity would point me in the right direction "seek out this place/person/symbol" or may become/lead me to a spirit guide. Again, just my speculation.

 

[HoldAll]

I think what you really want can be summed up in one word: dialogue. No visions, no indescribable mystical experiences, just one-on-one communication. I*m just a humble beginner but maybe I can help with some books:

Book – PDF - Magickal Destiny by Damon Brand

Download: 2.42 MB file on MEGA

wizardforums.com

Presents a 'humane' and entirely sensible approach to the whole HGA business.

Book – PDF - John R. King IV - Imperial Arts

Not sure if this guy's for real... he describes his experiences with Goethia demons, which is fascinating to read, but then again, he seems a bit too full of himself. This book describes the first-hand experiences of the author in his exorcism of 24 demons over the past six years. Known from...

wizardforums.com

Practical experiences with Goetia conjuring the traditional Solomonic way

Book – PDF - Demonolator's Handbook

Women went and conjured up all Goetia demons, one after the other. I don't remember where I found it, it's not a commercial publication. https://mega.nz/file/YO9ByaZK#MGl3e1Yy2RBtfTCQKrD6Ejr7ecQpujAp7CEn3-f1ZVU

wizardforums.com

The general consensus seems to be that you have to give demons a job to do, not just conjure them up for a chat - demonolators, however, do just that, strikes me as a bit naive but like I said, I'm not qualified to have an opinion yet in this matter.

 

[At_The_Threshold]

I think what you really want can be summed up in one word: dialogue. No visions, no indescribable mystical experiences, just one-on-one communication. I*m just a humble beginner but maybe I can help with some books:

Book – PDF - Magickal Destiny by Damon Brand

Download: 2.42 MB file on MEGA

wizardforums.com

Presents a 'humane' and entirely sensible approach to the whole HGA business.

Book – PDF - John R. King IV - Imperial Arts

Not sure if this guy's for real... he describes his experiences with Goethia demons, which is fascinating to read, but then again, he seems a bit too full of himself. This book describes the first-hand experiences of the author in his exorcism of 24 demons over the past six years. Known from...

wizardforums.com

Practical experiences with Goetia conjuring the traditional Solomonic way

Book – PDF - Demonolator's Handbook

Women went and conjured up all Goetia demons, one after the other. I don't remember where I found it, it's not a commercial publication. https://mega.nz/file/YO9ByaZK#MGl3e1Yy2RBtfTCQKrD6Ejr7ecQpujAp7CEn3-f1ZVU

wizardforums.com

The general consensus seems to be that you have to give demons a job to do, not just conjure them up for a chat - demonolators, however, do just that, strikes me as a bit naive but like I said, I'm not qualified to have an opinion yet in this matter.

Woo! Thank you so much for these. I think dialogue is very much the right word. I'll give these a look and let you know what I think.

 

[HoldAll]

The Damon Brand book is meant to be a modern replacement for the Abramelin ritual. For example, instead of incessantly praying, you just open up completely to your angel in Protocol One (it's harder than it seems, I tried) and instead of traditional purification and going to confession, you reveal to your HGA all your traumas and past pain. It's more about getting to know your Angel, inviting him into your life, being really sincere - I like his approach, makes much more sense to me than the old-school methods.

 

[Roma]

some sort of greater purpose or drive akin to K&C and/or initiatory structure.

There are many opinions on such matters. But in my view:

The HGA connects to the human through the higher mental subplanes that form the Neshama (Christian soul body).

The HGA finds it difficult to communicate with humans that cannot control their personality desires and thoughts

As the human learns to control its personality (physical, then emotional, then mental) greater beings step in to stimulate the flows of higher light and purpose.

When the human has:

• controlled its personality
• aligned subplane substances to allow smooth flow of Light,
• discharged personal karma,
• discharged sufficient denser subplane materials, and
• committed to the greater good,

the community of ascended/transcended/immortal Light workers is likely to accept the new initiate as a cell within the group being - with the attendant benefits and obligations

Physical plane initiatory rituals are sometimes useful to stablise control/alignment of physical plane energies, but I have only seen that a few times in decades of such ritual.

I have never seen such a ritual work on humans ready to stablise emotional or mental alignment. It may be more than a century before the human race is ready for the second initiation to be in such a public context

Post automatically merged: Nov 30, 2023

For what it may be worth here is an account of an ill advised attempt with the HGA

https://www.reddit.com/r/occult/comments/69tqce

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[Ziran]

So if I charge the spirit with "Let me realize my purpose!" or something on the like, I worry it will be too vague to be workable or the entity will just mess my life up so that when I fix the newly created problems I will gain some sense of purpose.

Ah. Don't worry, Luke. Consent can be revoked at anytime for any spirit. You're the boss. They work for you. If you have any concerns that something you've asked them to do is going against your will, just snap your fingers and confidently assert "Enough." No means no. It really is that simple to end it if you feel like something's going wrong.

Let me realize my purpose!" Enough/on the right lines? Do you have any thoughts?

I like it. Short. 5 words. That's my preference for a command. Technically the system I use is odd is for commands ( excluding 7 ). Even is for questions. And, maybe it sounds weird, but, I never say Thank-you. I like it to be short. Clear. Simple. Calm-assertive. Commands are usually 5 or 3. Questions are usually 4 or 6. That's what feels right to me. When I speak in that way, it automatically "puncutates" it, for lack of a better word. But, I don't do a lot of this.

Specifically, I, myself, wouldn't say "Let me..." I would say: "Reveal my purpose to me." If I wanted to inquire, I would explain the situation, then: "What should I do?"

There's a small problem with "Reveal my purpose to me", because, you certainly have more than 1 purpose. The command is null if the predicate-target is null. You could make it plural, or, another option might be: "Guide me to great success." Or. A three word option: "Illuminate potential opportunites."

 

[byte007]

Greetings, my name is Luke and I've been dabbling with magick for about four years now.

I've been very much an armchair magician for a while now, but have very recently begun a daily practice to get the bones moving. One thing I've been really trying to struggle with is finding a suitable magickal/spiritual path. Ceremonial magick seems very appealing for me, but I am less interested in physical results (for now) and more in some sort of greater purpose or drive akin to K&C and/or initiatory structure. The posts on his site have been helpful a bit, but I am still looking.

As for my experience in finding paths, I tried Greer's Hermetic Rose before, had some good experiences with it but dropped it due to the inclusion of the Kybalion (Not really Hermetic) and some strange Alcoholics Anonymus-inspired type stuff (I also began to become really put-off by the stuff he put on his website and wanted to distance myself from him.) I then tried Quaeria but the mediation exercises really fried my brain and stressed me out. I felt really disappointed that I seemed to fail the course, and became really despondent for a time. I then tried the daily "Operant Field" methods (LBRP, LIRH, MPR, daily mediation). Whilst it seemed like a step in the right direction, I began to feel frustrated and bored with the practice. In truth, I should've tried to be more experiemntal, tried some evocation, but I really felt lost and didn't know where and how to seek what I was looking for. I have tried experimental evocation before, but with aims and results that were just embarressing, I would rather not discuss those.

I recently began Jason Miller's daily practises outlined in his Sorcerer's Secrets book. I liked the offering rituals that helped me feel somewhat connected with the spiritual forces around me, and his perspective on mediation was very helpful and encouraging. I was almost going to try his Black School HOWEVER I luckliy managed to find the thread here that showed the flaws of his courses so I decided to stay away.

So here I am. The more desperately hopeful side of me thinks that if I just do enough prayers to the HGA he'll come up eventually and tell me what to do, but I know that is not a realistic outcome. I do not think it was all wasted time though. I really enjoyed the inner adventures and spirit contacts in the Hermetic Rose course (I'm just going to type this with the perspective that it was real and not merely mental projection), but I think it was misguided to try and have elemental beings as spirit guides, as they (from my limited perspective) don't tend to know much outside of the element they reside in.

As for what I would like in an ideal path, I definately want something with a heavy empathsis on evocation. The idea of spiritual knowledge from a preterhuman source really appeals to me. I know this is likely a fantastical projection based on inexperiance, but it is what's on my mind. I am open to and aware of the importance of mediation, but I really don't like the idea of having to practise mediation alone for an extended period (weeks, months) before doing any spirit work. I am aware of how impatient and immature this sounds, and is perhaps something I need to look into, but I think I am just really frustrated with going from path to path and not finding anything that sticks. I am aware that some of this is my fault, my impatience and expectations, but I do feel rather lost here and appreciate some advice.

As for my physical sitation. I have a job, self-emplyoed, am in education, have friends and hobbies. As said before, I am quite fulfilled in physical life and as such am not so much interested in magick for physical results (money, fame, ect) for the moment. I understand a spiritual journey might include works that aim for those things, but I merely wish to highlight the fact that this spiritual hunger comes not from some lack of physical or social things in my own life, but from a much more subtle place that I beileve only a magickal path can cure. I am grateful for any advice and perspectives.

Welcome!