Hole in the chest

[TheMouse]

Didn't think about connection to the Family and Ancestors, to be honest. I first felt this "hole" stuff when I had a relationship crisis with my husband. Then it disappeared and came back much later with different circumstances, but grew bigger and refused to leave. But I will think about other possible roots it (and my depression for that matter) might have.

In my own experience . . i find that these Family Patterns continue on to play out in our relationships with friends, partners, lovers, etc. . according to their own strange logic . . . . for example, someone with an abusive sibling may marry an abusive man because it's part of a familiar pattern . . . . some patterns are more obvious than others . . . . in your case, there might be some interesting links or similarities between the two different circumstances that led to the same Hole that youre experiencing . . . . like for example, each circumstance could have triggered issues around fundamental self worth or shame or mother or something . . . . . two different events can be linked in ways that arent immediately apparent . . . . . . . .

 

[Roma]

What makes the hole?

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Perhaps recalling good memories. Doing good deeds. Listening to uplifting music. Watching sentimental movies, then pushing white light through the hole.

 

[Ziran]

Ah, I see. You mean it's like a scar, right?

Yes and no. It's more like a branding, which is a specific type of scar, but it doesn't heal. It's an intrinsic part of the individual. It's part of their identity. It's part of what defines them and distinguishes them from other individuals. Where, when, how, the engraving gets placed on ( more accurately "in" ) the individual is extremely varied. Strangely, it could even be a positive event. And. It could be far beyond the individual's current life-span.

However in reading your replies and the replies of the other contributors to the thread, it might be that it's not an "engraving" at all. I could be completely wrong. If the word "scar" describes it better, if it resonates with you, and better helps explain your experience ( both the pain and the relief ), I think that's significant.

Naming these sort of phenomena is tricky. They don't exist nor operate in a way which is conducive to objective definition. Not only are they elusive, but, in my experience there are multiple layers of causation which are all simultaneously producing the feelings you've described. Layering and simultaneity produce a profound effect. It's a "perfect storm".

Doesn't sound very reassuring... I don't mind a scar as long as it doesn't hurt, but as this stuff is very uncomfortable to live with, to say the least, I don't really want to believe it's to be here with me - in me - forever.

Yeah, I know. In a small way, I feel the hurting and discomfort while reading your writing about it and looking at the artwork you posted here which is illustrating it. I feel like I strongly relate to what you are describing. It reminds me of my own experiences, but, I cannot deny the screen that seperates us. The screen encourages projections, expectations, self-reinforcing-validations. All of these are almost always shaping perception even in face-to-face interaction. The digital screen, naturally, exaggerates and amplifies the effect. In spite of that, hopefully, it is comforting that there are many, not just myself, not just those who are participating in the thread, who understand some of what you are going through and who are supporting you.

There are many different ways of modeling the phenomena you are describing. I model it as "spiritual". This, imo, is both accurate and practical. If it is spiritual, that explains why the treatment only produced limited relief. Yes, because spirit is eternal, ( always and forever ), and omni-present ( it is always with us ), the phenomena doesn't go away. However, in practice, these same properties of eternity and omni-presence of spirit are what produces the opportunity to reach out to the divine anytime anywhere. In practice, these are the same spiritual properties which permit spiritual communion, spiritual healing, and spiritual support, anytime anywhere.

 

[Roma]

What makes the hole?

If we can't answer this question, it will be difficult to fix the problem - other than by growing out of it.

When we discard denser subplane material, through inner growth, the problems embedded in those subplanes generally goes too, unless there are constraining karmic issues

 

[pixel_fortune]

Have you tried talking to it? In the Internal Family System model, you have wounded or exiled parts, and "managers" that protect those parts. Generally in unhelpful ways. Like they protect a wounded child part by never letting you make any art ever, so it can't get criticised for it. Or by drinking copiously, so it doesn't have to feel anything painful.

These parts often spontaneously appear as psychosomatic visualised sensation. I have a spiky star at my heart centre, a rolladoor that slams down on the right side of it, stuff like that. I didn't come up with these as metaphors, they just appeared when the therapist asked me to drop in and listen

I'll call it the Octopus for now because we don't know if it's a Part of you or not

You are aiming to sit beside the Octopus, not get involved with it, and for the time being you are not expecting anything from it

So you would get quiet and connect to the sensation and image of the Octopus. You would say (truthfully, for now), "Can I talk to you for a bit? I promise I won't try and get rid of you, I won't judge you or shame you or tell you to shut up, I just want to get to know you"
You might place your hand gently over where the octopus is.
Then you ask questions, and wait for thoughts to spontaneously arise in response. Make sure to give a good long wait after each question. There's often a "this is dumb, nothing's happening" phase and then the answer suddenly appears.

Questions include:

• What is your job? (Even if it's not a Part, it still probably has a reason to be here, so you can ask it this)
• What are you here to do?
• Do you like doing your job?
• Are you protecting me from something?
• What are you afraid might happen if you stop doing your job?
• Are you happy, living here in my chest?
• How long have you been here? How long have you been doing this job?
• How old do you think I am? (Sometimes parts don't realise there's an adult around, they think responsibility for the whole person rests on their shoulders alone)

You should reassure it throughout. If it thinks it's protecting you, you express appreciation for that even if it's really bad at its job. Even if it's a demon or etc, right now, you're in peace negotiations. Keep your word that you're not going to try and kick it out in this conversation

Sometimes you can't have this conversation because a different part will step in and block it. In that case, you have to gently ask this new part if it minds stepping aside just for a few minutes so you can talk to the Octopus.

When you finish, thank it for talking with you.

At this point hopefully you should know a bit more about what it is - if it's a part of you, or something external. If it's a Part, you can google for more about IFS processes.

It's been there a long time, so I'm inclined to think it's not hostile, because it could have done worse to you. It might, however, be counterproductive. Potentially you might be able to give it a new job that would be more helpful to you.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

This is actually excellent advice.

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

If you have some meditation/visualization abilities you could try the violet flame meditation, or maybe Ariel gatoga's solar light meditation. Both should fit nicely with your worldview, and have a wide range of energetic/metaphysical benefits. I'm not sure if they will remove an actual void parasite, but they might weaken it, and once you do get rid of it you'll have to keep up a practice to heal the damage and keep other such things away.

Thank you! I've started trying the meditations you provided, along with a few other techniques mentioned in the thread.

In my own experience . . i find that these Family Patterns continue on to play out in our relationships with friends, partners, lovers, etc. . according to their own strange logic . . . . for example, someone with an abusive sibling may marry an abusive man because it's part of a familiar pattern . . . . some patterns are more obvious than others . . . . in your case, there might be some interesting links or similarities between the two different circumstances that led to the same Hole that youre experiencing . . . . like for example, each circumstance could have triggered issues around fundamental self worth or shame or mother or something . . . . . two different events can be linked in ways that arent immediately apparent . . . . . . . .

Yes, probably. I'm still digging into what exactly happened when it all started.

What makes the hole?
If we can't answer this question, it will be difficult to fix the problem - other than by growing out of it.

When we discard denser subplane material, through inner growth, the problems embedded in those subplanes generally goes too, unless there are constraining karmic issues

No idea. As I was saying before, I don't really know how exactly it appeared. For the very first time I felt it I only remember fighting (verbally, that is) with my husband for a few days in a row. I was devastated and thought this feeling to be normal projection of what was happening in my heart.
Years later it appeared again when we decided to divorce. If it's important, I was the one initiating it and we got out on good terms, but it still was hurting as hell. Also I don't have heavy emotional attachment to that relationship anymore that might suggest that I should fix something in that direction (I'm grateful for all the good we've had, but that's it, no grudges, no desire to be together again).
Later the hole sometimes showed it's presence when I was feeling really down for other reasons and that's when I knew it never really left in the first place. And it opened to it's full power (well, I hope it is the full power and it can't be worse) a couple of years ago when my depression finally showed itself so obvious it couldn't be ignored anymore. I was in so much apathy and had so little energy I slept about 18 hours a day and literally didn't have enough strength to even chew food. Advises to walk or do some sports seemed like a cruel joke, because getting up from my bed and going to bathroom already felt like I just ran 10km, going to a store was even worse, sometimes I really wanted just to lay on the ground, so tired I was.
As of now I always feel it's presence and sometimes it opens either randomly or when I feel down for some reason. Often it's when I feel useless.

Perhaps recalling good memories. Doing good deeds. Listening to uplifting music. Watching sentimental movies, then pushing white light through the hole.

All of that didn't help, thought I didn't try pushing the light until now, so I'll keep watching.

Yes and no. It's more like a branding, which is a specific type of scar, but it doesn't heal. It's an intrinsic part of the individual. It's part of their identity. It's part of what defines them and distinguishes them from other individuals. Where, when, how, the engraving gets placed on ( more accurately "in" ) the individual is extremely varied. Strangely, it could even be a positive event. And. It could be far beyond the individual's current life-span.

Might be. I know a person who considers this hole to be a rightful part of themselves. Doesn't reflect how I feel though :D

Naming these sort of phenomena is tricky. They don't exist nor operate in a way which is conducive to objective definition. Not only are they elusive, but, in my experience there are multiple layers of causation which are all simultaneously producing the feelings you've described. Layering and simultaneity produce a profound effect. It's a "perfect storm".

Yes, that's why I decided to make this thread, to see what other people make of this stuff.

Yeah, I know. In a small way, I feel the hurting and discomfort while reading your writing about it and looking at the artwork you posted here which is illustrating it. I feel like I strongly relate to what you are describing. It reminds me of my own experiences, but, I cannot deny the screen that seperates us. The screen encourages projections, expectations, self-reinforcing-validations. All of these are almost always shaping perception even in face-to-face interaction. The digital screen, naturally, exaggerates and amplifies the effect. In spite of that, hopefully, it is comforting that there are many, not just myself, not just those who are participating in the thread, who understand some of what you are going through and who are supporting you.

True. It's comforting in some way, yet really sad to see how many people can relate.

There are many different ways of modeling the phenomena you are describing. I model it as "spiritual". This, imo, is both accurate and practical. If it is spiritual, that explains why the treatment only produced limited relief. Yes, because spirit is eternal, ( always and forever ), and omni-present ( it is always with us ), the phenomena doesn't go away. However, in practice, these same properties of eternity and omni-presence of spirit are what produces the opportunity to reach out to the divine anytime anywhere. In practice, these are the same spiritual properties which permit spiritual communion, spiritual healing, and spiritual support, anytime anywhere.

It does make sense. Thank you (:

Have you tried talking to it? In the Internal Family System model, you have wounded or exiled parts, and "managers" that protect those parts. Generally in unhelpful ways. Like they protect a wounded child part by never letting you make any art ever, so it can't get criticised for it. Or by drinking copiously, so it doesn't have to feel anything painful.
[...]
It's been there a long time, so I'm inclined to think it's not hostile, because it could have done worse to you. It might, however, be counterproductive. Potentially you might be able to give it a new job that would be more helpful to you.

You know, it didn't ever occur to me to look at it this way. I'm not sure it ever would if not for your words. I'll think about this perspective and try what you've suggested, it does seem like a wise thing to do. Thank you for the advise (:

 

[TheMouse]

Have you tried talking to it?

a major turning point in my own shadow work occured years ago when, in a fit of frustration after listening to this negative voice in my head scream at me for so long, i turned to it and yelled “What do you Want?!!!” . . . imagine my surprise when she answered (!!!) “I’m trying to save your life!” . . . oh . . . . . ok . . . . and dialogue continued from there . . . . . i just learned about internal family systems this past year . . . . that stuff works!

 

[Roma]

For the very first time I felt it I only remember fighting (verbally, that is) with my husband for a few days in a row.....
Years later it appeared again when we decided to divorce. .... we got out on good terms, but it still was hurting as hell. .....no grudges, no desire to be together again).
Later the hole sometimes showed it's presence when I was feeling really down for other reasons and that's when I knew it never really left in the first place. And it opened to it's full power ... when my depression finally showed itself ...

It looks like three different aspects:

• group karma affecting the relationship with your husband
• a targeted parasite from the Oppression System
• loss of light-body substance.

Here are some comments about the Oppression System

https://wizardforums.com/search/18002/?q=Oppression+System&c[users]=Roma&o=date

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

So @Tiana Silvermoon ... where do we stand now with all advice given thus far? Any latest developments?

I see meditation and reflection on family patterns. I would extend these to all romantic or sexual relationships, job relationships, etc.

Have you tried questioning the entities as one poster suggested? What were the results, positive or negative?

The Heart Flame Meditation @Roma suggests and revoking permissions?

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

So @Tiana Silvermoon ... where do we stand now with all advice given thus far? Any latest developments?

Just a couple of hours ago I tried asking this thing what it is and why is it here. I need some time to proceed the results and reflect some more. It was surprising and I think that's actually a point from which I can start to heal myself and it.

What I can say at this moment: I do believe it takes roots in psychological problems. But maybe not in those I first thought of. And then these problems affect one's energy flow or subtle/light body, I'm not sure yet how to call it. So to heal it you need to work with both your mind and your energy as well.

Many thanks to @pixel_fortune

@Roma and @Mannimarco thank you for all the info too, I will use meditations you've suggested and take a deeper look in other things.

And thanks to everyone else for all the suggestions and support, it was a great discussion and I'm grateful for it.
I'll write here again in a few days about my progress.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I'm so glad it was helpful! IFS methods have done way more for me than more thinky forms of therapy (CBT etc)

I am absolutely interested in a progress update but just want to say really firmly that this is personal stuff and you don't have to share anything if you don't want to

(I mean, I wouldn't let you sit in on one of my therapy sessions!)

Even when something's not "secret", it can still be the right move to keep an experience to yourself until you've really fully processed it

I love gossip (who doesn't) but you don't owe it to us

 

[Roma]

I'll write here again in a few days about my progress.

Looks like a modest reduction in the hole. A little bit of gold light at the back right.

The heart light exercise enables the human to claim its spiritual authority and integrity.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Looks like a modest reduction in the hole. A little bit of gold light at the back right.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you're saying here, but I don't think it's appropriate for you to try and tell Tiana what's going on inside her own body

Let her be the expert here.

(And if you genuinely believe you've had an accurate vision, then it would still be inappropriate to share that publicly without her permission, given she literally just said she needs time to reflect before she's ready to post an update - if she wanted us to know, she'd tell us herself)

 

[Ziran]

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you're saying here, but I don't think it's appropriate for you to try and tell Tiana what's going on inside her own body

Let her be the expert here.

(And if you genuinely believe you've had an accurate vision, then it would still be inappropriate to share that publicly without her permission, given she literally just said she needs time to reflect before she's ready to post an update - if she wanted us to know, she'd tell us herself)

Thank you for saying this.

 

[pixel_fortune]

No idea if this is still of relevance to you, but I was reading this book from the forums [link below] called The Black Sun. The author's a psychotherapist (of the Jungian variety I think) who describes how heaps of his patients have reported images of a black sun, often located in their bodies. It has discussions on what it meant for the various patients, as well as what the symbol of a black sun means in art, alchemy, etc. This was one patient's drawing of what she said was in her solar plexus. Might be completely different to your situation last year, but figured I'd share

Book:

Book – PDF - The Black Sun - The Alchemy and Art of Darkness by Stanton Marlan

https://mega.nz/file/I75UVazA#RwyQNBUVbhS_cVOFUaoHsvd2n6lLCesZLi9HseHEcII

wizardforums.com

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

No idea if this is still of relevance to you, but I was reading this book from the forums [link below] called The Black Sun. The author's a psychotherapist (of the Jungian variety I think) who describes how heaps of his patients have reported images of a black sun, often located in their bodies. It has discussions on what it meant for the various patients, as well as what the symbol of a black sun means in art, alchemy, etc. This was one patient's drawing of what she said was in her solar plexus. Might be completely different to your situation last year, but figured I'd share

Oh wow, yes, it looks very similar. I've added the book to my reading list. Thanks for sharing!