"How do you know its not all just demons"

[Gregorius]

I see people bring up this point everywhere whenever someone brings up any kind of occult discussion

 

[Crows&Ravens]

I used to cast spells that seemed too effective when I had spirit companions and it always made me feel that they were involved, probably were. to know for sure is to give license to depart, perform a banishing ritual so nothing can interfere and try out the spell/ritual.

I'm not sure if I fully understood properly so apologies in advance.

 

[Gregorius]

I used to cast spells that seemed too effective when I had spirit companions and it always made me feel that they were involved, probably were. to know for sure is to give license to depart, perform a banishing ritual so nothing can interfere and try out the spell/ritual.

I'm not sure if I fully understood properly so apologies in advance.

no not really im just asking for an argument against the annoying christians who say "but what if all the spirits and angels you talk to are just demons in disguise"

 

[Robert Ramsay]

no not really im just asking for an argument against the annoying christians who say "but what if all the spirits and angels you talk to are just demons in disguise"

It may not work for you, but my reply would probably be what Spock said to McCoy in Star Trek IV when McCoy asked him what it was like to be dead: "We lack a common frame of reference."

 

[Xingtian]

I would ask the interlocutors if they could prove the same of their own practice without resorting to some circular reasoning. There is of course the old dominical retort, How can Satan cast out Satan? But one must then ask, Why not? If the demons are really as devious as supposed, why wouldn't they simulate a conflict to deceive mortals?

 

[Amur]

Christians have used the evil symbolism and Satanism throughout the ages for new things so I suggest you prove it to yourself from your scientifical perspective. It's not like there's a demon behind every stone like many Xtians believe.

**edit note: Btw I'm a Satanist so believe it from me.

 

[Xenophon]

Descartes wrestled with this non-question at some length. The only possible rejoinder is John Dewey's. (I promise, this is the only time I'll agree with him. Ever.) He pointed out that such qualms have few practical effects. One frets and farts and fusses. Then he picks himself up and goes with what he convinces himself looks most likely.

Quoth Kipling in one of his tales, "Alive or dead, effendi. There is no other way." In other words, s*** or get off the stool.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

no not really im just asking for an argument against the annoying christians who say "but what if all the spirits and angels you talk to are just demons in disguise"

But what if all the spirits you talk to are just in your head and you're actually talking to yourself?

The All is the mind, so I guess technically they are all in your head, from a certain point of view anyways.

Honestly people always forget the source of the word demon is rooted in Greek, transliterated as daemon.

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[Xenophon]

But what if all the spirits you talk to are just in your head and you're actually talking to yourself?

The All is the mind, so I guess technically they are all in your head, from a certain point of view anyways.

Honestly people always forget the source of the word demon is rooted in Greek, transliterated as daemon.

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Yes, and to the Greeks (as to many folk) daimones came in many different types, from sublime to malicious.

Someone suggested to me once that, just as the heart hath its reasons, the head hath its entrances. That is, that consciousness in its depths is a portal. The fact that a dialogue takes place in my head does not necessarily mean I'm talking to my surface self or, indeed, any entity that can properly be styled "me." This is nothing novel, simply something worth reminding oneself of.

 

[Mannimarco]

no not really im just asking for an argument against the annoying christians who say "but what if all the spirits and angels you talk to are just demons in disguise"

How do they know their god is not just demons in disguise? Maybe the real Creator is someone else entirely, and their god is deceiving them into worshipping himself under false pretenses?

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

How do they know their god is not just demons in disguise? Maybe the real Creator is someone else entirely, and their god is deceiving them into worshipping himself under false pretenses?

How do you know that anything is real? Once you question your beliefs to the point where you can't even discern what is real about them, said beliefs collapse and all that is left is emptiness and self-doubt. It is good to question things, but only so far as you are able to maintain your sense of self.

Once, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering about, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhuang Zhou.

 

[Mannimarco]

How do you know that anything is real? Once you question your beliefs to the point where you can't even discern what is real about them, said beliefs collapse and all that is left is emptiness and self-doubt. It is good to question things, but only so far as you are able to maintain your sense of self.

Once, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering about, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know that he was Zhuang Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhuang Zhou.

Gregorious asked for an argument against hostile christians, I gave him one. I don't see how Zhuang Zhou and butterflies are relevant.

 

[lee smith]

My question would be, why would it matter if they are demons or not. If you become or work really hard to become a mature integrated person they can't do much anyway. And how much faith in their god do they have if they think that a demon can squish them if they look at it cross-ways? I'm not being arrogant, I know one has to be careful in spiritual waters but that is with everything.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Personally, as someone who works with demons quite a bit I would say they definitely have a huge impact but they are not by any means the only thing that defines the occult. Occultism as a whole goes way beyond demons and spirits and the full moon and all of that. It is about achieving enlightenment in some form or another

 

[Xenophon]

Gregorious asked for an argument against hostile christians, I gave him one. I don't see how Zhuang Zhou and butterflies are relevant.

I reckon he just meant there's no reliable criterion for deciding the question at hand. At which point one can either file the question and get on with life & magick, or one can plunk down by the roadside and work on his philosophy PhD.

 

[HoldAll]

Such people come from a worldview where demons lurk everywhere to confound unwary true believers. I remember reading once about a Christian fundie whose pastor preached against empty-mind meditation because he firmly believed that all sorts of demons would inevitalby creep in to fill that mental void. This is in stark contrast to our shared conviction that you need to conjure a spirit first before it comes calling (I don't know what to make of cases of unwelcome possession à la "The Exorcist" though… are those parasites of a sort?), which is a knack that has to be learned first and which many find rather difficult.

A glib retort would be "How do you know it's not just all angels?", but that would fail to take into account the Christian fundie instinct that they are constantly beset by evil spirits at every turn, most likely a refusal to see temptations, character flaws, 'sinful' impulses arising from their own sex drive, etc. as internal forces and externalise them as independent malevolent beings instead - "Demons are to blame, nothing to do with me!"- come to think of it, this is also not an altogether correct assumption because they most likely think of themselves as sinners, too, with eternal damnation always hovering over their head. Their belief in ominipresent evil, therefore, has them coming and going so they always feel threatened both from the outside and the inside.

This is probably especially true when such people are Protestant and didn't grow up in a strong tradition of angel worship as practices by Roman Catholicism or Orthodox Churches, so demons are most likely the only spirits they know and believe in.

 

[Xenophon]

Such people come from a worldview where demons lurk everywhere to confound unwary true believers. I remember reading once about a Christian fundie whose pastor preached against empty-mind meditation because he firmly believed that all sorts of demons would inevitalby creep in to fill that mental void. This is in stark contrast to our shared conviction that you need to conjure a spirit first before it comes calling (I don't know what to make of cases of unwelcome possession à la "The Exorcist" though… are those parasites of a sort?), which is a knack that has to be learned first and which many find rather difficult.

A glib retort would be "How do you know it's not just all angels?", but that would fail to take into account the Christian fundie instinct that they are constantly beset by evil spirits at every turn, most likely a refusal to see temptations, character flaws, 'sinful' impulses arising from their own sex drive, etc. as internal forces and externalise them as independent malevolent beings instead - "Demons are to blame, nothing to do with me!"- come to think of it, this is also not an altogether correct assumption because they most likely think of themselves as sinners, too, with eternal damnation always hovering over their head. Their belief in ominipresent evil, therefore, has them coming and going so they always feel threatened both from the outside and the inside.

This is probably especially true when such people are Protestant and didn't grow up in a strong tradition of angel worship as practices by Roman Catholicism or Orthodox Churches, so demons are most likely the only spirits they know and believe in.

All good points. Your pastor there reminds of me of an anecdote Philip Kapleau cites about a 19th century Englishman in Japan. Seeing Zen monks at meditation, he declared "They do nothing all day except sit eyes closed and thinking lewd thoughts." A highly revealing answer about the speaker, I aver. Something similar might well be afoot with the guy whose emptied mind immediately houses demons.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

All good points. Your pastor there reminds of me of an anecdote Philip Kapleau cites about a 19th century Englishman in Japan. Seeing Zen monks at meditation, he declared "They do nothing all day except sit eyes closed and thinking lewd thoughts." A highly revealing answer about the speaker, I aver. Something similar might well be afoot with the guy whose emptied mind immediately houses demons.

Also the Spitting Image sketch with The Archbishop of Canterbury and Mary Whitehouse (a notorious anti-filth campaigner)
Arch: "But Mary, you're seeing filth that isn't even there!"
Mary (slaps him): "How dare you imply that I have nice breasts!"

As for arguing against these people; as Frank Zappa said: "The only way you're gonna get someone to agree with you, is if they agree with you already"

 

[HoldAll]

All good points. Your pastor there reminds of me of an anecdote Philip Kapleau cites about a 19th century Englishman in Japan. Seeing Zen monks at meditation, he declared "They do nothing all day except sit eyes closed and thinking lewd thoughts." A highly revealing answer about the speaker, I aver. Something similar might well be afoot with the guy whose emptied mind immediately houses demons.

Zen monks in meditation thinking nothing but lewd thoughts!!

 

[Xenophon]

Also the Spitting Image sketch with The Archbishop of Canterbury and Mary Whitehouse (a notorious anti-filth campaigner)
Arch: "But Mary, you're seeing filth that isn't even there!"
Mary (slaps him): "How dare you imply that I have nice breasts!"

As for arguing against these people; as Frank Zappa said: "The only way you're gonna get someone to agree with you, is if they agree with you already"

Rather more elegantly, Jonathan Swift noted, "It is impossible to reason a man out of a position he never reasoned his way into."

So, if I am sincerely concerned that it's all demons, I doubt anyone can disabuse me of the suspicion.