If you can get results just by using intent with energy, what use are spirits, Jinn, angels etc. Do they amplify or speed up something?

[Lion]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

 

[Beyond Everything]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

Unless you're well advanced (and that specfically means a very developed subtle body), these things tend to solve some problems and then bring other ones. Most people are undiscerning and can't put two and two together.

I've also never seen evidence that they bring better general results than so-called simple manifesting using one's own power.

 

[Lion]

Thats a strong advocation for 'manifesting using your own power'. Other than Bardon's excercises, which are very much about this, is there any other way of growing your skills in this area. As I say, sometimes I am suprised at how effective it can be.... is that also your experience?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:11 PM

Thats a strong advocation for 'manifesting using your own power'. Other than Bardon's excercises, which are very much about this, is there any other way of growing your skills in this area. As I say, sometimes I am suprised at how effective it can be.... is that also your experience?

Also, being 'undiscerning' ... I dont contest that judgement ... I am keen to know how to 'put two and two together' ... and what kinds of problems bring other ones when solved.

 

[OberonFromTheHills]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

Its simply a matter of paradigm.

In modern magick, there are two main models that are debated : the energy model and the spirit model.

Even though they are not that seperated in practice, you always find people who either focus their work on petitioning a spirit to get something and the ones who focus on creating the change by casting programmed energy constructs.

They are many ways to explain why they all work and/or why some models doesn't work for some people :

• personnal cosmology
• worldview
• believing/not believing in spirits
• believing/not believing in what you do
• personnal sympathy with a model.

Artists have good results by doing a painting or writting a poem. Women in countryside of Europe have results by cooking a meal. Ceremonial magickians.could write essays on Paimon and the results they got by calling him. Chaos decide that if Spider Man can trap an enemy into a web, so he will for them...

At the end of the day, if it works for you congrats.... Most of people are still struggling to get results.

 

[Mannimarco]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

The basic reason is cooperation. "Team work makes the dream work". Two or more people that can get along and work well together will normally get more done than working alone. The thing is, the people, or entities in this case, have to actually click. Some people click with most popular occult spirits, some with almost none of them, and most fall somewhere in between. This is mostly about energetic resonance, also being pleasant and easy to work with, and many other factors unique to the entity in question.

Of course it's simpler to just manifest on your own, but if you can build the relationship and get the relevant factors to align, working with spirits can be really effective. Almost all traditional magickal systems involve spirits in one way or another, and it's for a good reason.

 

[solxyz]

One big reason to work with spirits is because it is fun and interesting. Casting sigils gets boring after a while. Meanwhile, the different energies, personalities, and perspectives that the spirits bring are things I never would have or could have dreamed up - sometimes it can be so different from anything I could imagine imagining. One of the best ways to practice getting out of your reality tunnel is to start seeing things from the perspective of another being that has a very different kind of experience than you. So this gets to another reason for working with spirits - many of them are good teachers. There are things you can learn from them, both in terms of "results" magic and personal growth or wisdom. Finally, I do think that if you build up a good set of spirit relationships, it does make you more powerful over time than just trying to do everything yourself.

 

[lexidium]

Angels and demons etc are not independant beings sitting around somewhere just waiting to do our bidding. They are anthropomorphic representations of aspects of the universe and ourselves. They are symbols to help the mind climb where it cannot fly.
Invoking and evoking them is part of the 'art of changing consciousness at will'

 

[solxyz]

Angels and demons etc are not independant beings sitting around somewhere just waiting to do our bidding. They are anthropomorphic representations of aspects of the universe and ourselves. They are symbols to help the mind climb where it cannot fly.
Invoking and evoking them is part of the 'art of changing consciousness at will'

While our ways of imagining angels are demons are certainly anthropomophizations for our own cognitive convenience, I strongly disagree with your claim that they are not independent beings. The world is not the inert and senseless place that materialists would have you believe it is. It is composed, among other things, of interpenetrating fields of intelligence with their own agendas. This includes the angels are demons, which cannot be properly related to as mere tools of your own mind.

 

[ahathoor]

I think you have asked one of the most important core questions of magical practice. The textbook Chaote answer would be that using spirits or not using them are simply different but equivalent ways of doing magic, similar to, say, cursive vs. block calligraphy. While there is certainly truth hidden in that somewhere, I do not entirely agree with it.

So, first of all, there is the question of what we consider imaginal entities to "objectively be". I personally am a strong anti-solipsist, it is my personal gnosis and ethical standpoint to grant strong personhood to imaginal beings, as well as other humans. You will hear opinions of the imaginal being a reflection of one's (or of our collective) psychology, or a "humanized" way to understand the universe. Now I can step in as a crazed Zos-Kia cultist that I am, and claim all of these can be true at the same time, on account of reality being a glorious mess. (Imaginal is a beautiful word I was familiarized with by J. F. Martell and Phil Ford; it means the part of reality that is pure image; ie. image as substance, compare "made of smokeless fire". I have come to love this word quite a lot.)

Anyway, my answer to why working with imaginal beings can be meaningful though, is entirely independent of what you think they "objectively are".

My understanding is that the core issue with pure Intention in magical practice is that our minds are overly complicated and contradictory; if you practice hypnosis for long enough, you'll get a deep sense for just how much this is true... Then, there is the topic of the world being overly complicated and contradictory. In my practice and understanding, magical work (similarly to hypnotic suggestion) is mostly about building consensus. In the mind, and in the world, equally. The ideal you want to reach is "the world" also wanting the result that you want. Working with ancestors, deities, angels or demons allows you to connect yourself to a greater chain of Intention. It's no longer just you standing there, but You as an integral part of the Whole, in dialogue, as opposed to simply shouting demands into the void.

Then again, there are of course other valid ways of connecting yourself to the Whole. Maybe not equivalent, but equally workable.

 

[ahathoor]

Unless you're well advanced (and that specfically means a very developed subtle body), these things tend to solve some problems and then bring other ones.

Okay I would argue that if someone is not "well advanced" in this sense, working with powerful Imaginal entities is probably way less advisable than pure Intention work... "solves some problems and bring other ones" is possibly an overly charitable reading of what is most likely to happen. Not to be elitist or all "satanic panicky" about it or or anything.