In need of a bit of advice

[Theurgist]

I hope the following won't raise the aire of anyone here. I have a deep respect for all traditions within the magick sphere and for the esotericists practising. I am discussing a personal preference, I don't have much control over it, and this is coming not from a place of superiority or hate. If I caused any uneasiness, I humbly apologise, it was not my intention at all

Greetings all! I was doing some exercises related to journaling a few days ago when I realized something. I remembered back in the day when I was practising ceremonial magick the fact that I couldn't "get into" anything that was even remotely related to the Judeo-Christian milieu. And nothing much changed for me, years ahead.

For example, I'd rather not use God's names, the Lord's prayer, transliterations of divine names, names of Angels etc. Even the basic stuff like the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram (LRP), I could not get into because of the Angel names implied. Enochian either, what a loss.

To be more specific, I could perform the rituals without issue but I have a mental block or something. I suspect it was due to a strict Christian upbringing (and that is saying the least), that I knew before I even began that it wouldn't work.
The issue is, that I'm missing a GREAT deal of the magick work, within the context of Western Occultism. And I don't want to miss that much.
I'm not here to whine, I'm here to solve this problem of mine.

So my question is, could I just replace the Judeo-Christian sacred elements with the ones from another spirituality? Maybe Greek? Or Assyrian maybe? Is this ok?

To take the example of the LRP, could I replace the name of the Angels with something equivalent if I study and understand their functions?

And if so, are there others here who have also chosen something other than the J-C spirituality for their work who could give me some advice?

Thank you very much and please excuse me if I created any trouble or discomfort

 

[Xenophon]

I had some roughly similar qualms some time back. I wound up going into a tradition I felt more at home in. Edred Thorsson's "reconstructed" Norse paganism, for example, is mostly retreaded Golden Dawn stuff with different deities' names plugged in. I moved on in time, but the jerry-rigging did spare me wallowing in what I found---and find---distasteful.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I hope the following won't raise the aire of anyone here. I have a deep respect for all traditions within the magick sphere and for the esotericists practising. I am discussing a personal preference, I don't have much control over it, and this is coming not from a place of superiority or hate. If I caused any uneasiness, I humbly apologise, it was not my intention at all

Greetings all! I was doing some exercises related to journaling a few days ago when I realized something. I remembered back in the day when I was practising ceremonial magick the fact that I couldn't "get into" anything that was even remotely related to the Judeo-Christian milieu. And nothing much changed for me, years ahead.

For example, I'd rather not use God's names, the Lord's prayer, transliterations of divine names, names of Angels etc. Even the basic stuff like the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram (LRP), I could not get into because of the Angel names implied. Enochian either, what a loss.

To be more specific, I could perform the rituals without issue but I have a mental block or something. I suspect it was due to a strict Christian upbringing (and that is saying the least), that I knew before I even began that it wouldn't work.
The issue is, that I'm missing a GREAT deal of the magick work, within the context of Western Occultism. And I don't want to miss that much.
I'm not here to whine, I'm here to solve this problem of mine.

So my question is, could I just replace the Judeo-Christian sacred elements with the ones from another spirituality? Maybe Greek? Or Assyrian maybe? Is this ok?

To take the example of the LRP, could I replace the name of the Angels with something equivalent if I study and understand their functions?

And if so, are there others here who have also chosen something other than the J-C spirituality for their work who could give me some advice?

Thank you very much and please excuse me if I created any trouble or discomfort

I'm gonna recommend the book Helios Unbound by Nick Farrell.

It's a pagan Abramelin operation, but it's also a whole system of theurgic ceremonial magic with a Golden Dawnish structure, but based on the PGM (Greco-Egyptian magic)

So it's got a "Greek Cross", a pentagram rite, an elemental balancing rite, rituals for the lunar mansions, etc etc in there and you can use all those without committing to the actual intensive 7-month program, just take what is useful to you. (If you see my other thread on it, I have some complaints about structure, but these are only a problem if trying to do the full operation as I am. And I think they're all resolved now after I asked the author for clarification. The fact that I had those complaints but am still using it as my sourcebook for almost all my ritual work tells your I think highly of it)

I think in general you would get a lot out of looking into the the PGM - the Greek Magical Papyri - because it's a very old collection of spells from Alexandria around the turn of the millennium so and it's supreme god is a sort of syncretic sun god that combines Helios with the Egyptian sun gods and Aion from the cult of Mithras, among others. Hekate also shows up a fair bit.

Here's a link relevant to that (again noting that when it says "god" it means the syncretic sun god, not Yahweh)

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Digital Ambler (the blog) is also a good source for PGM rites, but a little more intermediate. You can of course also go straight to the source material, but they take a bit to to repurpose to the modern world (eg how to adapt instructions like "step 1: drown a falcon in milk") so I wouldn't start there.

(Jack Grayle is running his PGM Praxis course soon - it's a year long course with a new Greco-Egyptian ritual each week. I would LOVE to do it but I'm already oathbound to the Helios Unbound operation this year. But it's expensive and you don't even know if you're interested in the PGM yet or not - just mentioning because it's what I'd love to do)

Moving on, another book I think you might find useful is "Rediscover the Magick of the Gods and Goddesses: Revealing the Mysteries of Theurgy"

Book – PDF - Jean-Louis de Biasi - Rediscover the Magick of the Gods and Goddesses: Revealing the Mysteries of Theurgy

The philosophical roots of much of Wicca and Paganism, as well as Western ceremonial magick, come from ancient Egypt. In this thoroughly researched book, the Grand Master of the Aurum Solis shares the history and evolution of the theurgic tradition―including the origins of Hermeticism in Egypt...

wizardforums.com

You could also look into John Michael Greer's books on druidry, because he had a golden Dawn background and so his druid rituals are a lot more ceremonial and less witchcrafty. The "Sphere of Protection" is their complex circle opening and power invoking rite if you want to look it up

I'm PRETTY sure this doesn't have any Abrahamic stuff, and planetary magic is such a robust space to practice in imo, because they're so... obviously present, idk

Book – PDF - Planetary Magick (2011) - Melita Denning & Osborne Phillips

I could have sworn the 1989 edition was on WF but I can't find it so starting a new thread. Planetary Magick by world-famous occultists, authors, and magicians Melita Denning and Osborne Phillips, serves three purposes. First, if you want more magical information about the planets, this book...

wizardforums.com

(You could check out Rufus Opus Seven Spheres but I'm less confident it doesn't have anything Abrahamic in it. You'd think it wouldn't? But I don't remember)

Aidan Wachter's Six Ways is ofc always gold, but it is more focused at animism and the local spirits than deities and what I would really call theurgy

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

Another absolutely beautiful and strongly recommended book is Rod and Ring by Samuel David. It's a year-long series of Sumerian initiation rites. But it's much closer to pure devotion than theurgy, so would only recommend if you have a specific love for that pantheon. (I have taken parts of it and worked them into theurgic rituals, but it's not meant for that)

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

This is another book I'm very interested in - it's both theurgic and thaumaturgic

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I haven't read it but I've interacted with the author on the Sumer discord and she seems to know her shit, so again, if that's a specific path of interest, it could be worth looking at

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

^ that book above was "Evil Speech Stand Aside: Ancient Mesopotamian Ishib Magic for the Modern Magician"

 

[Theurgist]

I'm gonna recommend the book Helios Unbound by Nick Farrell.

It's a pagan Abramelin operation, but it's also a whole system of theurgic ceremonial magic with a Golden Dawnish structure, but based on the PGM (Greco-Egyptian magic)

So it's got a "Greek Cross", a pentagram rite, an elemental balancing rite, rituals for the lunar mansions, etc etc in there and you can use all those without committing to the actual intensive 7-month program, just take what is useful to you. (If you see my other thread on it, I have some complaints about structure, but these are only a problem if trying to do the full operation as I am. And I think they're all resolved now after I asked the author for clarification. The fact that I had those complaints but am still using it as my sourcebook for almost all my ritual work tells your I think highly of it)

I think in general you would get a lot out of looking into the the PGM - the Greek Magical Papyri - because it's a very old collection of spells from Alexandria around the turn of the millennium so and it's supreme god is a sort of syncretic sun god that combines Helios with the Egyptian sun gods and Aion from the cult of Mithras, among others. Hekate also shows up a fair bit.

Here's a link relevant to that (again noting that when it says "god" it means the syncretic sun god, not Yahweh)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Digital Ambler (the blog) is also a good source for PGM rites, but a little more intermediate. You can of course also go straight to the source material, but they take a bit to to repurpose to the modern world (eg how to adapt instructions like "step 1: drown a falcon in milk") so I wouldn't start there.

(Jack Grayle is running his PGM Praxis course soon - it's a year long course with a new Greco-Egyptian ritual each week. I would LOVE to do it but I'm already oathbound to the Helios Unbound operation this year. But it's expensive and you don't even know if you're interested in the PGM yet or not - just mentioning because it's what I'd love to do)

Moving on, another book I think you might find useful is "Rediscover the Magick of the Gods and Goddesses: Revealing the Mysteries of Theurgy"

Book – PDF - Jean-Louis de Biasi - Rediscover the Magick of the Gods and Goddesses: Revealing the Mysteries of Theurgy

The philosophical roots of much of Wicca and Paganism, as well as Western ceremonial magick, come from ancient Egypt. In this thoroughly researched book, the Grand Master of the Aurum Solis shares the history and evolution of the theurgic tradition―including the origins of Hermeticism in Egypt...

wizardforums.com

You could also look into John Michael Greer's books on druidry, because he had a golden Dawn background and so his druid rituals are a lot more ceremonial and less witchcrafty. The "Sphere of Protection" is their complex circle opening and power invoking rite if you want to look it up

I'm PRETTY sure this doesn't have any Abrahamic stuff, and planetary magic is such a robust space to practice in imo, because they're so... obviously present, idk

Book – PDF - Planetary Magick (2011) - Melita Denning & Osborne Phillips

I could have sworn the 1989 edition was on WF but I can't find it so starting a new thread. Planetary Magick by world-famous occultists, authors, and magicians Melita Denning and Osborne Phillips, serves three purposes. First, if you want more magical information about the planets, this book...

wizardforums.com

(You could check out Rufus Opus Seven Spheres but I'm less confident it doesn't have anything Abrahamic in it. You'd think it wouldn't? But I don't remember)

Aidan Wachter's Six Ways is ofc always gold, but it is more focused at animism and the local spirits than deities and what I would really call theurgy

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

Another absolutely beautiful and strongly recommended book is Rod and Ring by Samuel David. It's a year-long series of Sumerian initiation rites. But it's much closer to pure devotion than theurgy, so would only recommend if you have a specific love for that pantheon. (I have taken parts of it and worked them into theurgic rituals, but it's not meant for that)

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

This is another book I'm very interested in - it's both theurgic and thaumaturgic

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I haven't read it but I've interacted with the author on the Sumer discord and she seems to know her shit, so again, if that's a specific path of interest, it could be worth looking at

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

^ that book above was "Evil Speech Stand Aside: Ancient Mesopotamian Ishib Magic for the Modern Magician"

Praised be Athena, you just answered all my questions! You understood my needs perfectly, I'm in awe! THANK YOU

 

[pixel_fortune]

To take the example of the LRP, could I replace the name of the Angels with something equivalent if I study and understand their functions?

To answer this directly: some people think you can (I am one of them), some people think you can't, so you will pretty much just have to experiment and make your own judgement call there

Just don't judge a ritual as non-functional because it feels weird and awkward the first few times you do it. They always do! For me anyway

 

[Theurgist]

Just don't judge a ritual as non-functional because it feels weird and awkward the first few times you do it. They always do! For me anyway

Oh yes, this is an important fact for me whenever I do my own Hermeticist thing. I'm quite attached to the "technique" underlying the ritual and I have some reason to believe that it was a common string in the ancient religions but that's another discussion. This is why I felt like not being able to practice a lot of Ceremonial or Enochian as a loss.
And to further clarify what I said earlier about not being able to practice in the J-C spirituality, it has a lot to do with my upbringing and the pathologization of everything esoteric and different from Christianity and the dogma of the Church. So I stay away not because I harbour some irrational hatred or feelings of superiority, and I have a LOT of respect for the people who can practice in that tradition! I just can't shake that "feeling"

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

Can't find the edit button on my post.

"Digital Ambler (the blog) is also a good source for PGM rites, but a little more intermediate."

This is an awesome resource for my needs but indeed intermediate!

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

So that's how this works. Ok

 

[HoldAll]

What @pixel_fortune said.

It should be borne in mind that behind every time-honoured ritual there was a creator who originally thought it up first. In the case of the LBRP, that would be MacGregor Mathers in the 1890ies or so. But what if he had laid out differently? What if he had used Egyptian gods instead of Hebrew godnames and archangels in an ankh layout, with all together different gestures like in Donald Tyson's "Kinesic Magic"? MacGregor Mathers seemed to have grown more fond of Egyptian deities in later life, viz. the Isis and Osiris rite he performed with his wife for audiences in Paris. Would he have designed a different ritual for beginners entirely unlike the LBRP?

I feel that the ancient Greeks are a safe bet when it comes to theurgy because there is a lot of intricate Neoplatonist philosophy behind it, and the practical side is abundantly covered by the PGM. I read somewhere that Plato and the Neoplatonists practised a 'soft' monotheism (as opposed to the Judeo-Christian 'hard' monotheism, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, etc.), so while there is a single supreme (and ineffable) god for them, there is also room for Hermes, Aphrodite, agatodaemones and the lot.

In contrast to the author of the blog @pixel_fortune mentioned, I would recommend the Rite of the Headless (or Bornless) one for PGM beginners. I like Jason Miller's version - perhaps you want to skip the 'barbarous names' in the beginning, they can be a bit disconcerting. There is a lot of discussion going on who the Headless One actually is but anyway, in this rite you assume the form of a powerful god right away, no need for implements, fasting, purifying, etc.

Book – PDF - Strategic Sorcery- Jason Miller

Strategic Sorcery - Jason Miller dead link I don’t think this one has been shared here yet. 1681435933 lol - please delete. I can’t figure out how

wizardforums.com

 

[Theurgist]

What @pixel_fortune said.

It should be borne in mind that behind every time-honoured ritual there was a creator who originally thought it up first. In the case of the LBRP, that would be MacGregor Mathers in the 1890ies or so. But what if he had laid out differently? What if he had used Egyptian gods instead of Hebrew godnames and archangels in an ankh layout, with all together different gestures like in Donald Tyson's "Kinesic Magic"? MacGregor Mathers seemed to have grown more fond of Egyptian deities in later life, viz. the Isis and Osiris rite he performed with his wife for audiences in Paris. Would he have designed a different ritual for beginners entirely unlike the LBRP?

I feel that the ancient Greeks are a safe bet when it comes to theurgy because there is a lot of intricate Neoplatonist philosophy behind it, and the practical side is abundantly covered by the PGM. I read somewhere that Plato and the Neoplatonists practised a 'soft' monotheism (as opposed to the Judeo-Christian 'hard' monotheism, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, etc.), so while there is a single supreme (and ineffable) god for them, there is also room for Hermes, Aphrodite, agatodaemones and the lot.

In contrast to the author of the blog @pixel_fortune mentioned, I would recommend the Rite of the Headless (or Bornless) one for PGM beginners. I like Jason Miller's version - perhaps you want to skip the 'barbarous names' in the beginning, they can be a bit disconcerting. There is a lot of discussion going on who the Headless One actually is but anyway, in this rite you assume the form of a powerful god right away, no need for implements, fasting, purifying, etc.

Book – PDF - Strategic Sorcery- Jason Miller

Strategic Sorcery - Jason Miller dead link I don’t think this one has been shared here yet. 1681435933 lol - please delete. I can’t figure out how

wizardforums.com

Thank you so much as well! Becoming a member of this forum was the best thing I did for my practice, by far

 

[Mars]

Thats because the Abrahamic Religions were made up by people, it came from below.
Pagan traditions came from above.

It's an intuitive realisation you had. One that sets you up to actually learn and understand what magic is. Commendable you came to this realisation and correctly identified it.

I would recommend you "Revolt against the Modern World" and "The Hermetic Tradition" both by Julius Evola, an actual Magus. Since you are interested in Hermeticism you will love those books and knowledge therein

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Theres also the "Introduction to Magic" 3 part series. By Inner Traditions.

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Thats the first book^ the 2 other volumes are probably also available somewhere online for free. It also contains the Mithras (Sol Invictus) ritual.

 

[Theurgist]

I'm sorry to say this but I think that you are mistaking my thought processes for something else. Basically, everything you said comes from a point of view that I find deeply disgusting, to say the least, and that I strongly oppose. I feel bad that my post led to such misguided opinions. Finally, I wouldn't practice something from Evola if my life depended on it. I think you have mistaken me for someone and something else and that has more to do with your projecting than what I meant.
And thanks for correcting me, I did find one tradition that I do not respect. At all

 

[Konsciencia]

I hope the following won't raise the aire of anyone here. I have a deep respect for all traditions within the magick sphere and for the esotericists practising. I am discussing a personal preference, I don't have much control over it, and this is coming not from a place of superiority or hate. If I caused any uneasiness, I humbly apologise, it was not my intention at all

Greetings all! I was doing some exercises related to journaling a few days ago when I realized something. I remembered back in the day when I was practising ceremonial magick the fact that I couldn't "get into" anything that was even remotely related to the Judeo-Christian milieu. And nothing much changed for me, years ahead.

For example, I'd rather not use God's names, the Lord's prayer, transliterations of divine names, names of Angels etc. Even the basic stuff like the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram (LRP), I could not get into because of the Angel names implied. Enochian either, what a loss.

To be more specific, I could perform the rituals without issue but I have a mental block or something. I suspect it was due to a strict Christian upbringing (and that is saying the least), that I knew before I even began that it wouldn't work.
The issue is, that I'm missing a GREAT deal of the magick work, within the context of Western Occultism. And I don't want to miss that much.
I'm not here to whine, I'm here to solve this problem of mine.

So my question is, could I just replace the Judeo-Christian sacred elements with the ones from another spirituality? Maybe Greek? Or Assyrian maybe? Is this ok?

To take the example of the LRP, could I replace the name of the Angels with something equivalent if I study and understand their functions?

And if so, are there others here who have also chosen something other than the J-C spirituality for their work who could give me some advice?

Thank you very much and please excuse me if I created any trouble or discomfort

I am so many things. Therefore, you can fused other Deities into the mix. I know I do.

 

[Xingtian]

Yeah, you need to look into Platonism. Western occultism- Christian, Islamic, whatever "hermetic" means at a given moment, etc.- is largely based on a Platonic foundation. Honestly most of the modern stuff is weak rehashing of this material. You should first of all familiarize yourself with the basics of Platonism- Plato's dialogues Symposium and Phaedrus might be a good starter to whet your appetite. Your screenname is "Theurgist" so you really ought to delve into where the concept of theurgy emerged- the Chaldaean oracles and the work of the philosopher Iamblichus. This Neoplatonic ritual system becomes fully developed by philosophers like Proclus and the emperor Julian (who tried to make it a state religion). If you want a glimpse of what it looks like, this short text by Sallustius, On the Gods and the World, is an excellent epitome of the theurgic Platonic worldview:

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Also check out the website hellenicfaith.com.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

Regarding the PGM I highly recommend this interview on the SHWEP about its contents, how it was collected, and how certain rituals (such as the "bornless ritual") were drastically reinterpreted by modern occultists.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

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Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

Our knowledge of hellenic polytheist rituals is very scanty, largely because they were such common knowledge that no one thought it worth writing about them. The PGM is probably the best pointer to what sort of rituals the theurgists may have been up to. Beware of Golden Dawn and other modern interpretations. Not that altering or reinterpreting a ritual to suit a new purpose is bad, but my feeling is that one should try to understand the rationale of a rule before breaking it. The "barbarous names of evocation" might seem weird or silly to us now but the ancient theurgists warned not to change or omit them... why did they think they were so important?

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

I'm sorry to say this but I think that you are mistaking my thought processes for something else. Basically, everything you said comes from a point of view that I find deeply disgusting, to say the least, and that I strongly oppose. I feel bad that my post led to such misguided opinions. Finally, I wouldn't practice something from Evola if my life depended on it. I think you have mistaken me for someone and something else and that has more to do with your projecting than what I meant.
And thanks for correcting me, I did find one tradition that I do not respect. At all

You are much more polite than I would be.

 

[Theurgist]

"Not that altering or reinterpreting a ritual to suit a new purpose is bad, but my feeling is that one should try to understand the rationale of a rule before breaking it. The "barbarous names of evocation" might seem weird or silly to us now but the ancient theurgists warned not to change or omit them... why did they think they were so important?"
Ok, I'll bite!
Did i tell you how much i love the "technology" behind magick? I could study this forever.
Anyway, I have my theory and I know an "official" explanation (I think by Iamblicus).
My theory is that because it "taps" on similar reservoirs of accumulated power, for lack of a better word. The "barbarous" words were not only egyptian but jewish as well as persian so that kind of gave it away for me. Of course i might be wrong, what do i know.
One official explanation is that it had to do with something related to the power fo the sound, something like a mantra. If i recall.

And that is some awesome interview you linked there. Thank you. Everything is fantastic so far, can scarcely believe how much i got back from asking a (what i thought at the time to be silly) question. Thank you all

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

The Middle Pillar by Cicero and Regardies has adapted QC and LRP and MP rituals in Native American, Greek, Egyptian, Celtic and regular godnames etc.

 

[Rowena]

So my question is, could I just replace the Judeo-Christian sacred elements with the ones from another spirituality? Maybe Greek? Or Assyrian maybe? Is this ok?

To take the example of the LRP, could I replace the name of the Angels with something equivalent if I study and understand their functions?

You need to understand the function of the LBRP within the GD & post-GD Hermetic tradition as well:
The LBRP doesn't just use Judeo-Christian terminology (angel names etc...), it's grounded in Christian philosophy & theology so you need to understand that the GD essentially invented modern banishing rituals as a quick & temporary virtual equivalent of the pre-GD magic circles, and that these magic circles are grounded in the Christian doctrine of Original Sin - essentially meaning that all humans are tainted, impure, & 'Unworthy in the eyes of God', and need to be purified or sanctified in some manner before they can call on, or communicate with divine powers.
If you aren't working within a Christian magical tradition, LBRP-style banishing rituals are largely pointless, since few other traditions have similar impurity doctrines.
As Xenophon mentioned above, attempts by various Heathen & Pagan authors to produce plug-n-play versions of the LBRP do exist, but are largely the result of poor scholarship, and are completely unnecessary.

 

[pixel_fortune]

The "barbarous names of evocation" might seem weird or silly to us now but the ancient theurgists warned not to change or omit them

I've been wondering about this, because the fact is almost everyone mispronounces them

Firstly because we're resurrecting a dead language, and there have been a lot of different pronunciations over time and place. After googling the simple question of pronunciation (omega bs omicron) i watched this 2 and a half hour video into variant pronunciations of Ancient Greek. I've linked to a timestamp that shows 6 different pronunciations, and you'll notice the slide title is "More Egyptian variants". Those 6 variants show a subset of the pronunciations of Greek letters just within Egypt. And that's not getting into Coptic and Demotic, which the barbarous words may actually be taken from, and is much harder to reconstruct.

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In fact, a tonne of practitioners use Erasmian pronunciation for Greek words, because it's what's most commonly taught in schools, and that is completely fabricated (it was never intended to be a reconstruction of the original pronunciation, it was a teaching tool that clearly distinguished between letters). It's almost certainly what Crowley used, because the desire to reconstruct things accurately is more of a modern trend.

Going further: it's very very difficult to even detect some of the pronunciation nuances depending on our native language. I learned from that video that English speakers pronounce P differently in "pin" vs "spin". (say them out loud and listen closely. The second is unaspirated and is almost closer to a B.) To an ancient person, getting those mixed up is like us mixing up s and sh or c and ch. But we have to strain to hear the difference.

North Americans typically can't hear the difference between the AW in awesome and A in father, or between "a" in "cat" and eh (they pronounce the name "Aaron" identically to the name "Erin").

So at this point it seems to me a pretty hard case to make that they can't be altered - they HAVE been altered, often to the point of being utterly mangled to my ear.

I don't know what this means. I use the barbaric words, and I do my best to pronounce them based on what I've learned of how Greek was pronounced in Egypt around the time of the PGM. But I can't help but be aware that pronunciation hasn't seemed to matter much for previous practitioners

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2024

If you aren't working within a Christian magical tradition, LBRP-style banishing rituals are largely pointless, since few other traditions have similar impurity doctrines.

Logically and theoretically you're right, but I wasn't raised religious and think purity mentality is weird and psychologically harmful, and yet the LRP has noticeable effects on me in terms of clarity (I mainly use a plug-and-play variant). It should be pointless but it isn't. ¯\_ (ツ) _/¯

(I found it helpful to use a more contemporary framing of purity, as "just one thing, not mixed with other things" and the idea of pre-cleansing is more like clearing off your kitchen bench before you start cooking. Not because unpaid bills are sinful, but they're clutter and a distraction from the work at hand. That is absolutely not what the ancients meant by purity, but it's a helpful frame for me)

 

[Xingtian]

I've been wondering about this, because the fact is almost everyone mispronounces them

Firstly because we're resurrecting a dead language, and there have been a lot of different pronunciations over time and place. After googling the simple question of pronunciation (omega bs omicron) i watched this 2 and a half hour video into variant pronunciations of Ancient Greek. I've linked to a timestamp that shows 6 different pronunciations, and you'll notice the slide title is "More Egyptian variants". Those 6 variants show a subset of the pronunciations of Greek letters just within Egypt. And that's not getting into Coptic and Demotic, which the barbarous words may actually be taken from, and is much harder to reconstruct.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In fact, a tonne of practitioners use Erasmian pronunciation for Greek words, because it's what's most commonly taught in schools, and that is completely fabricated (it was never intended to be a reconstruction of the original pronunciation, it was a teaching tool that clearly distinguished between letters). It's almost certainly what Crowley used, because the desire to reconstruct things accurately is more of a modern trend.

Going further: it's very very difficult to even detect some of the pronunciation nuances depending on our native language. I learned from that video that English speakers pronounce P differently in "pin" vs "spin". (say them out loud and listen closely. The second is unaspirated and is almost closer to a B.) To an ancient person, getting those mixed up is like us mixing up s and sh or c and ch. But we have to strain to hear the difference.

North Americans typically can't hear the difference between the AW in awesome and A in father, or between "a" in "cat" and eh (they pronounce the name "Aaron" identically to the name "Erin").

So at this point it seems to me a pretty hard case to make that they can't be altered - they HAVE been altered, often to the point of being utterly mangled to my ear.

I don't know what this means. I use the barbaric words, and I do my best to pronounce them based on what I've learned of how Greek was pronounced in Egypt around the time of the PGM. But I can't help but be aware that pronunciation hasn't seemed to matter much for previous practitioners

Yes, and it seems like these words and phrases were already being mangled by the theurgists and magicians who recorded them. I vaguely recall some speculative but plausible reconstructions of the Hebrew or Egyptian words some of them were derived from. It's a bit I guess like how, say the word Shih Tzu in English is a mangled pronunciation of the Mandarin word for "lion"- you can see how it got there but it's definitely not the same.

Here is where I see the value in barbarous names, or something like them. I'll start with one of Iamblichus' justifications for "names that are not significant (meaningless)" according to Porphyry:

They are not, however, as you think, without signification; but let them be indeed unknown to us (though some of them are known to us, the explications of which we receive from the Gods), yet to the Gods all of them are significant, though not according to an effable mode.

So leaving aside the particular problems of the "barbarous names", and the fact they are almost certainly not given or pronounced in the way those wise old Egyptian, Babylonian, or Jewish priests pronounced them, I think what makes them important is that they are not something that we can contain or explain with our rational faculty, they indicate realities that are not reducible to our conceptions about the divine, that are not under our control, and yet these are essential to the rite. Our reason is not banished entirely but we leave a space for revelation. So maybe we jettison the peculiar voces magicae provided by these old texts but there should be some important element that opens this space.

Bringing it to the 20th century I think of the surrealist practice of automatism. One of the great masters of that art was Benjamin Peret. In his short article about automatic writing he says, "You no longer want to know what is logical and what is not, you no longer want to know anything except what you are going to be told. Write as fast as possible so as not to lose any of the secrets that are made known to you about yourself, and above all do not re-read yourself. " He means, of course, don't re-read in the course of writing, lest your flow of thought be interrupted and you be tempted to revise, ie "alter the barbarous words".

 

[HoldAll]

I've been wondering about this, because the fact is almost everyone mispronounces them

Firstly because we're resurrecting a dead language, and there have been a lot of different pronunciations over time and place. After googling the simple question of pronunciation (omega bs omicron) i watched this 2 and a half hour video into variant pronunciations of Ancient Greek. I've linked to a timestamp that shows 6 different pronunciations, and you'll notice the slide title is "More Egyptian variants". Those 6 variants show a subset of the pronunciations of Greek letters just within Egypt.

You know what? I think the voces magicae may simply have been included as a means of escaping verbal, discursive thinking in order to express unutterable emotions as part of a spell that is otherwise composed of words that have to follow the stric dictates of grammar, syntax, logic, etc. Some 'barbarous names" may be just there because they sounded cool or mysterious, or those "howling" strings vowel gave the magician goosebumps. So it's the effect that counts according to my theory, which also means that the pronounciation that captivates you most is the correct one. Simple as that.

 

[Rowena]

...and the idea of pre-cleansing is more like clearing off your kitchen bench before you start cooking. Not because unpaid bills are sinful, but they're clutter and a distraction from the work at hand. That is absolutely not what the ancients meant by purity, but it's a helpful frame for me...

Oh yeah, there is a place for both personal & group centering/grounding rituals to clear your head before and after other ritual work, and various ways to mark sacred spaces, but they do not need to be grounded in Christian dogma, or based on Christian magical practices.

 

[HoldAll]

Like "Abrasax". I first heard about an album by Santana called "Abraxas" when I was a teen and knew nothing about Gnosticism, occultism or the PGM. The word just stuck and I never forgot it (I didn't even own that album), it sounded so mysterious and dignified. The PGM authors seemed to think so, too, so it went into a lot of spells. And I will always pronounce "Sabaoth" the way I heard it in church as a little boy, any attempts to change it would be doomed, I think.