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When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect.
I understand the dynamics involved in the sidereal Vs tropical astrology , but how would whatever hemisphere you are in change the progression ( do you mean ; 'order of them' ? ) of those signs ?
It looks like you are claiming the progression of the signs , allocated to segments of space extending out from the Earth, are in a different order in the southern hemisphere .
This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens;
What do you mean they are not 'dimensional' ? Do you realize how the starting point of their cycle ( 'order' ) is calculated ? That calculation is not made 'from the Earth' .
since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
Why is the Southern hemisphere sky 'inverted ' ? It is just being looked at from a differing perspective - however physical dynamics DO invert the seasons and that is due to axial tilt and orbital path of the Earth .
Please explain how you 'correct' the charts
Note ; I do realize a southern chart should be drawn up differently ... technically , but us southerners are used to looking at our charts drawn the northern way ... and that difference is simply because we are conditioned to face the path of the Sun through the sky .... Sun still comes up in the east no matter where you are or which direction you face .
This is actually a more complicated problem than it first appears.
Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere have different seasons due to Earth tilt, experience different stars (inc. 'upside down' constellations) and the Zodiacal signs reflect Northern Seasons, light levels and temperatures where; Christmas, ice and winter in the NH, are experienced as high summer, heat and fireflood in, at least, certain regions of Australia. Moreover, the Zodiac is entering the Age of Aquarius in the NH.
If you try to reverse it, the Zodiac becomes unworkable, because it was not designed universally, but relatively and oriented to the NH experience. You also create an Age of Virgo - and this introduces a whole new paradigm of Time, that destroys the concept of a singular Age. In short, you can reverse the NH Zodiac and accept its shortcomings to reflect the SH experience, but it doesn't, and in trying to create two Zodiacs you realise it tears the whole thing apart*.
We preferred significant alteration to make practical, functional, useable, seasonal, light-based, time-based, magical sense. We fixed the issue for ourselves by creating the Duodiac, a single device with a double wheel that fuses the incompatibilities of Astronomy and Astrology, and is suited to our Southern Climate. It restores the missing 13th Astrological sign Ophiuchus and supplies Zodiacal Relativity to one's location including alignment with the seasons. The question of signs becomes a matter of choice (and fusion) - are you a Sagittarius, Capricorn or perhaps a Sagicorn? Choose.
'The way the 12-Sign Zodiac works (in Traditional Western Astrology / TA) is that the zodiac is based on dividing the 360° ecliptic (Sun’s path) into 12 equal parts of 30° each. Each part aligns (roughly) with a calendar month, though imperfectly. This has nothing to do with the real star constellations - it's a symbolic, mathematical system. In the 12-sign system, each zodiac sign = 30° of the sky = 1/12 of a year or approximately 1 month. Adding an extra house would either change each house to 28 days or extend the calendar year to 395 days, both options causing considerable
disruption. Meanwhile, the 13th constellation known as Ophiuchus (Serpent-Bearer) has traditionally been excluded despite being a real zodiacal constellation that the Sun passes through (Nov 29–Dec 17) because its inclusion would interfere in this neat arrangement of Time. This conflict raised the key question: should signs reflect actual time spent (Sidereal/Vedic Astrology) or be made equal-length for convention and practicality (Tropical Astrology)? 13ism's solution is to represent both. Therein, 13ism reflects real solar movement through actual sky constellations and includes both tropical and sidereal astrology in one diagram simply by using two separate wheels, one inside the other.'
'For THEM a critical element of Paganism is a wordless knowing that we come from the stars, and value placed on having gratitude and respect and an ability to recognise and flow with the changes of the land that affect and influence our organism and human endeavours. For us, paganism is a human connection with the land where both human and land are viewed as extensions of an identical source of nature and its changes. Given that THEM is an Australian Magickal Order, to honour what we observe in the stars and in the land an organic representation of the elements is required that reflects our SH experience so we felt it necessary to either remedy this significant gap in Australian paganism - or at least begin re-raising and addressing the issue. The purpose of this reworking is straightforward and derives from a simple premise. Namely, if we are to work sympathetic magic to explore - or acknowledge - the influence of the celestial spheres, stars and other wonders of the world either in the changes observed in nature via our unique seasonal alchemy or applicable to personal psychology (expanded by Carl Jung), then surely, we must flow with these forms and forces in a proper attunement as they occur. We have subsequently devised a New Wheel called the Duodiac - a hybrid system that balances symbolic harmony with astronomical truth fusing Tropical (typical) Astrology (shown on an Inner Wheel), with Sidereal (Vedic) Astronomy (shown on an Outer Wheel) like a watch with two faces.
We have also developed Thirteenism (13ism) an approach to Astrology-Astronomy (Astrae) which re-includes the 13th constellation of Ophiuchus without disrupting the traditional 12 house system of the Zodiac and allowing others to import tropical astrology effortlessly. We have replaced the NH celebrations with our own event names and times to reflect our real-world experience and needs here in Australia, have assessed the Sun's path for us requires a reversal of NH deosil and widdershins, have included other important astronomical features including the lunar houses, daylight savings times, the analemma, perihelion/aphelion, annual meteor showers (given that Victoria is fortunate to have a dark sky experience) and have revised how seasons are visually represented. To signify 13isms wheel as a Southern Hemisphere device, it features an icon for Sigma Octantis, the Southern Celestial Polestar, at its heart**. The top of the diagram as it appears on screen or paper should not be interpreted as ‘North’, nor assumed to be aligned with the depicted West–East Sun-path circle, which functions as a separate observer-relative guide. The placement of the Vernal Equinox at the top reflects its conventional role as the beginning of the seasonal cycle, and as the eye tends to travel from top-down, is placed there for convenience with the Duodiac arranged in a counter-clockwise design.' - p. 473. The Corpus Themeticum 2.0 by the Temple of THEM.
*If for instance, you invert the NH model to an SH model and create a mirror-image of the thing, you fit two hemispheres together rotated at 180 degrees to one another, but accidentally create an Age of Virgo, since the SH is still beholden to the precession of the Equinox, and must then ask what do the people in the division between these hemispheres experience on the Equator line? Is there then a third Age, and so on which detonates Astrology because it's premised on a single simple (relative) approximation of Time claiming universality.
**THEM also applies its own constellations to reorient the starscape visually and overlay it thematically. We combine Crux, the Pointer Stars and parts of Centaurus to form 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' constellation, for instance, using the sky as a teaching mechanism of our lore rather than as an inherited unchangeable map. As its circumpolar stars rotate above us, it is so envisioned that the constellation is never 'upside down' (itself a fragile claim on space) - the tetrahedron (Crux) held in the Sorcerer's hand merely slightly inverts its shape as it revolves.
In the Southern Hemisphere, the signs are reversed
When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
No. Although it feels logical, it's not true. North is in the North, no matter if you are on Northern or southern hemisphere. The Sun raises in the East. If Southern hemisphere were inverted the Sun would have to raise in the west. The means that the Earth rotates the same. The seasons re no more inverted than the time in the time zones. When I have day, on the opposite side of planet is the night but that is not inversion, it is just the time there being 12 hours ahead/behind. Same with seasons on Southern and Northern hemisphere. they are not inverted, just half year ahead/late.
In planetary astrology what matters is specific place on the planet and from there where the planets are positioned.
BTW, when you think so dualistic about south/north, what about equator?
When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
No one is born exactly on the Equator. None of the locations where this imaginary line divides the two hemispheres have maternity wards that straddle it; in other words, a person is always either in the Southern Hemisphere or the Northern Hemisphere. Being at the North Pole or just one centimeter north of the Equator makes no difference—you are still in the Northern Hemisphere. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I understand the dynamics involved in the sidereal Vs tropical astrology , but how would whatever hemisphere you are in change the progression ( do you mean ; 'order of them' ? ) of those signs ?
It looks like you are claiming the progression of the signs , allocated to segments of space extending out from the Earth, are in a different order in the southern hemisphere .
What do you mean they are not 'dimensional' ? Do you realize how the starting point of their cycle ( 'order' ) is calculated ? That calculation is not made 'from the Earth' .
Why is the Southern hemisphere sky 'inverted ' ? It is just being looked at from a differing perspective - however physical dynamics DO invert the seasons and that is due to axial tilt and orbital path of the Earth .
Please explain how you 'correct' the charts
Note ; I do realize a southern chart should be drawn up differently ... technically , but us southerners are used to looking at our charts drawn the northern way ... and that difference is simply because we are conditioned to face the path of the Sun through the sky .... Sun still comes up in the east no matter where you are or which direction you face .
They aren't dimensions. And every calculation regarding signs stems from Earth's cycles—seasons, equinoxes, and solstices—within a geocentric system. You'd do well to go back and study the origins of tropical astrology.
No. Although it feels logical, it's not true. North is in the North, no matter if you are on Northern or southern hemisphere. The Sun raises in the East. If Southern hemisphere were inverted the Sun would have to raise in the west. The means that the Earth rotates the same. The seasons re no more inverted than the time in the time zones. When I have day, on the opposite side of planet is the night but that is not inversion, it is just the time there being 12 hours ahead/behind. Same with seasons on Southern and Northern hemisphere. they are not inverted, just half year ahead/late.
In planetary astrology what matters is specific place on the planet and from there where the planets are positioned.
BTW, when you think so dualistic about south/north, what about equator?
Hahaha. You really ought to start studying geography. Let's talk after you've studied that. The Tropical Zodiac is basically linked to Earth's cycles in one of the hemispheres; if the other has different cycles, the zodiac operates in the same order but follows those cycles.
This is actually a more complicated problem than it first appears.
Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere have different seasons due to Earth tilt, experience different stars (inc. 'upside down' constellations) and the Zodiacal signs reflect Northern Seasons, light levels and temperatures where; Christmas, ice and winter in the NH, are experienced as high summer, heat and fireflood in, at least, certain regions of Australia. Moreover, the Zodiac is entering the Age of Aquarius in the NH.
If you try to reverse it, the Zodiac becomes unworkable, because it was not designed universally, but relatively and oriented to the NH experience. You also create an Age of Virgo - and this introduces a whole new paradigm of Time, that destroys the concept of a singular Age. In short, you can reverse the NH Zodiac and accept its shortcomings to reflect the SH experience, but it doesn't, and in trying to create two Zodiacs you realise it tears the whole thing apart*.
We preferred significant alteration to make practical, functional, useable, seasonal, light-based, time-based, magical sense. We fixed the issue for ourselves by creating the Duodiac, a single device with a double wheel that fuses the incompatibilities of Astronomy and Astrology, and is suited to our Southern Climate. It restores the missing 13th Astrological sign Ophiuchus and supplies Zodiacal Relativity to one's location including alignment with the seasons. The question of signs becomes a matter of choice (and fusion) - are you a Sagittarius, Capricorn or perhaps a Sagicorn? Choose.
'The way the 12-Sign Zodiac works (in Traditional Western Astrology / TA) is that the zodiac is based on dividing the 360° ecliptic (Sun’s path) into 12 equal parts of 30° each. Each part aligns (roughly) with a calendar month, though imperfectly. This has nothing to do with the real star constellations - it's a symbolic, mathematical system. In the 12-sign system, each zodiac sign = 30° of the sky = 1/12 of a year or approximately 1 month. Adding an extra house would either change each house to 28 days or extend the calendar year to 395 days, both options causing considerable
disruption. Meanwhile, the 13th constellation known as Ophiuchus (Serpent-Bearer) has traditionally been excluded despite being a real zodiacal constellation that the Sun passes through (Nov 29–Dec 17) because its inclusion would interfere in this neat arrangement of Time. This conflict raised the key question: should signs reflect actual time spent (Sidereal/Vedic Astrology) or be made equal-length for convention and practicality (Tropical Astrology)? 13ism's solution is to represent both. Therein, 13ism reflects real solar movement through actual sky constellations and includes both tropical and sidereal astrology in one diagram simply by using two separate wheels, one inside the other.'
'For THEM a critical element of Paganism is a wordless knowing that we come from the stars, and value placed on having gratitude and respect and an ability to recognise and flow with the changes of the land that affect and influence our organism and human endeavours. For us, paganism is a human connection with the land where both human and land are viewed as extensions of an identical source of nature and its changes. Given that THEM is an Australian Magickal Order, to honour what we observe in the stars and in the land an organic representation of the elements is required that reflects our SH experience so we felt it necessary to either remedy this significant gap in Australian paganism - or at least begin re-raising and addressing the issue. The purpose of this reworking is straightforward and derives from a simple premise. Namely, if we are to work sympathetic magic to explore - or acknowledge - the influence of the celestial spheres, stars and other wonders of the world either in the changes observed in nature via our unique seasonal alchemy or applicable to personal psychology (expanded by Carl Jung), then surely, we must flow with these forms and forces in a proper attunement as they occur. We have subsequently devised a New Wheel called the Duodiac - a hybrid system that balances symbolic harmony with astronomical truth fusing Tropical (typical) Astrology (shown on an Inner Wheel), with Sidereal (Vedic) Astronomy (shown on an Outer Wheel) like a watch with two faces.
We have also developed Thirteenism (13ism) an approach to Astrology-Astronomy (Astrae) which re-includes the 13th constellation of Ophiuchus without disrupting the traditional 12 house system of the Zodiac and allowing others to import tropical astrology effortlessly. We have replaced the NH celebrations with our own event names and times to reflect our real-world experience and needs here in Australia, have assessed the Sun's path for us requires a reversal of NH deosil and widdershins, have included other important astronomical features including the lunar houses, daylight savings times, the analemma, perihelion/aphelion, annual meteor showers (given that Victoria is fortunate to have a dark sky experience) and have revised how seasons are visually represented. To signify 13isms wheel as a Southern Hemisphere device, it features an icon for Sigma Octantis, the Southern Celestial Polestar, at its heart**. The top of the diagram as it appears on screen or paper should not be interpreted as ‘North’, nor assumed to be aligned with the depicted West–East Sun-path circle, which functions as a separate observer-relative guide. The placement of the Vernal Equinox at the top reflects its conventional role as the beginning of the seasonal cycle, and as the eye tends to travel from top-down, is placed there for convenience with the Duodiac arranged in a counter-clockwise design.' - p. 473. The Corpus Themeticum 2.0 by the Temple of THEM.
*If for instance, you invert the NH model to an SH model and create a mirror-image of the thing, you fit two hemispheres together rotated at 180 degrees to one another, but accidentally create an Age of Virgo, since the SH is still beholden to the precession of the Equinox, and must then ask what do the people in the division between these hemispheres experience on the Equator line? Is there then a third Age, and so on which detonates Astrology because it's premised on a single simple (relative) approximation of Time claiming universality.
**THEM also applies its own constellations to reorient the starscape visually and overlay it thematically. We combine Crux, the Pointer Stars and parts of Centaurus to form 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' constellation, for instance, using the sky as a teaching mechanism of our lore rather than as an inherited unchangeable map. As its circumpolar stars rotate above us, it is so envisioned that the constellation is never 'upside down' (itself a fragile claim on space) - the tetrahedron (Crux) held in the Sorcerer's hand merely slightly inverts its shape as it revolves.
It isn't a problem once you understand that it is a language of signs regarding events, not the causes of events. The sky function like a clock; that is, they don't cause anything—they herald it. And another thing: this whole idea of astrological ages is utter nonsense. After all, signs are only relevant to personal events, whereas stars relate to global matters.
My friend, I don't think you or ChatGPT, know what you are talking about, and have made numerous suppositions that destabilize your own argument. But if you imagine visible light coming from stars ly away from one another that may no longer exist, whose rudimentary arrangement is grouped arbitrarily into clusters, and happens to have been given collective names (hundreds of different ones in different parts of the sky over time) defines personality - what is one to say? And if you must use a robot to make your points - what point in discussion?
The ONA believed they had encapsulated all personality types with their 'Star Game' too. They didn't.
so lol okay let me propose the ultimate magical ritual, you have to straddle the equator with a magic circle, and suddenly it's winter and summer solstice at the same time, and every astrological sign is also its opposite! it's like the Manhattan Project but for magic...
except no, there's no summer or winter in Indonesia, those words are entirely meaningless to life and agriculture there, and also the solstice is an astronomical curiosity rather than the Big Thing we're used to here in the frozen wastes our ancestors decided to travel to for some horible messed up reason so they can suffer and starve
/j
no actually, nothing you said makes sense. i do get the drive, but humanity, meaning, life, seasons, the nightsky, and magic are a bit more complicated than this
When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens..
My understanding of astrology comes from reading a lot of traditional primary sources, and they mostly contradict this opinion. The decision between tropical and sidereal comes down to a fundamental philosophical disagreement and you have to decide which side of it you are on, just as the ancients did.
Those who went with the tropical zodiac (historically) did so because they believed in a spiritual reality that was transcendent and eternal, a "platonic" reality of pure forms, where the "true" and perfect nature of everything is revealed for what it was always meant to be, not as our physical senses present it, and not as things manifest here in the physical world of mud and lead and beasts and so forth. Especially the neoplatonists and hermetics and the gnostics, which were the main influencers behind the western esoteric tradition since... like, forever... they had no love for the physical world and didn't care how the "actual" stars in the sky were arranged because to them those were not, in fact, the "actual" stars. As I said already, they believed in a perfect spiritual and divine realm which was "actual" reality, not this physical world through which we are interacting currently.
However, with the rise of the "age of reason", and the development of better mathematics and astronomy, and with the rise of science, and with the rise of empiricism and other such modern philosophies, the trend in western society was to move away from such highly spiritual and abstract systems and toward a more "natural" world view of "natural" forces and forms, where nothing "supernatural" exists or is allowed to exist. This also goes hand-in-hand with the suppression of all forms of "omens" and "witchcraft" under the heavy authority of late renaissance Christianity. Thus, the situation was primed for the old debate to re-emerge, and with the occult revival that happened in the 20th century led by Alan Leo, once again the "correct" ayanamsa to use was being considered, only now, the bias was much more strongly in favor of rigorous "scientific" measurements and alignments with the "actual" stars (again, "actual" is a loaded term that already implies you base your definition of reality on your physical senses, which is very popular to do these days but was not always so).
Also, the Jyotish astrologers have been using some form of sidereal ayanamsa for thousands of years and their astrology "works" just fine. This seems to be the real elephant in the room to consider. If you want to be completely objective and even get into this discussion, consider that, where the rubber meets the road it makes absolutely no difference what zodiac you use. When you break it all down "scientifically" and base it on statistically analysis, none of them can beat a coin flip. However, that's only looking at the broad picture. If you take specific charts, individual cases can line up with the predictions so accurately it's haunting, meanwhile other charts seem to be way off, and again, it doesn't matter which zodiac you use in which hemisphere.
This has led me to the conclusion that it has as much to do with the person who is reading the chart, and the way they read it, as it does with the techniques themselves, or the chart being read. There are simply so many factors that go into interpreting a chart, and let's not even get into the forms of astrology nobody really talks about but are, in my opinion, far more important to know about, like horary astrology or electional astrology. Let's not even start on whether you should use whole sign houses or equal sign houses or some form of quadrant house system and why you should or shouldn't use them for various purposes like primary directions or length of life techniques versus natal chart placements and angular strength of the planets.
Astrology is simply so subjective that I see it as more of an artform and it has techniques but no rules. It's like saying "you're suppose to hold the brush like this" and telling someone they're not holding the brush correctly when they paint some masterpiece you could never paint yourself. It's like backseat driving and trying to navigate for someone else who already knows how to get to where they are trying to go, even if they don't follow the same route you do or it takes an extra five minutes or some traffic you believe they could have avoided if they only listened to you. My point is that nobody actually knows the "right way", because there is no "right way". There is just, whatever way gets you to wherever you are trying to go. And if you live in the southern hemisphere and using a tropical zodiac doesn't work, or hell, if astrology itself doesn't work for you no matter what system you choose... then stop using astrology. Learn tarot or I Ching or something else I guess? There are many other forms of divination or timing methods if you need something like that in your life. Just use moon phases or something. Or better yet, do what the ancients did and just be creative, invent something that you think might work, try it out, and see if it works. If you can invent a solution that works for you, then there you go, use that. But also be warned, should you figure out that patch that makes it work for you, always remember, it worked FOR YOU, that doesn't mean it will work for everyone or that it even SHOULD work for everyone.
Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere have different seasons due to Earth tilt, experience different stars (inc. 'upside down' constellations) and the Zodiacal signs reflect Northern Seasons, light levels and temperatures where; Christmas, ice and winter in the NH, are experienced as high summer, heat and fireflood in, at least, certain regions of Australia. Moreover, the Zodiac is entering the Age of Aquarius in the NH.
You also create an Age of Virgo - and this introduces a whole new paradigm of Time, that destroys the concept of a singular Age. In short, you can reverse the NH Zodiac and accept its shortcomings to reflect the SH experience, but it doesn't, and in trying to create two Zodiacs you realize it tears the whole thing apart*.
Well, you never mentioned precession in that first post at all . This is a new addition . That 'age stuff' need not enter at all into an astrological calculation ... unless you like the Theosophical and pop versions of things . Blavatsky juggling the 'Yugas' and that Leo guy that made the Sun all important ( Alan Leo ) .
I would venture to say that the upcoming 'Age of Virgo' is about as relevant as the upcoming 'Age of Aquarius ' ( and when might that start ? How you gonna calculate that ; from a modern astronomical map constellation boundary ? Some area of 'empty space' ? the center or the asterism ? The 'first star' connected to the asterism ? ..... ?
We preferred significant alteration to make practical, functional, useable, seasonal, light-based, time-based, magical sense. We fixed the issue for ourselves
by creating the Duodiac, a single device with a double wheel that fuses the incompatibilities of Astronomy and Astrology, and is suited to our Southern Climate. It restores the missing 13th Astrological sign Ophiuchus and supplies Zodiacal Relativity to one's location including alignment with the seasons.
Restores ? It was never included and it was never an astrological sign . It is a constellation that crosses the ecliptic .
Regarding alignment with the seasons ; our group did that fairly simply and adopted the local indigenous understanding incorporating 6 seasons and they fitted in pretty nicely with our 'astro-wheel' .
One assumes this means were you natal Sun is positioned . It does not actually 'make you' .... a specific sign .... although I realize that is the current pop understanding .
Now its reading like , because I was born in the south , I have a dual natal Sun sign .
'The way the 12-Sign Zodiac works (in Traditional Western Astrology / TA) is that the zodiac is based on dividing the 360° ecliptic (Sun’s path) into 12 equal parts of 30° each. Each part aligns (roughly) with a calendar month, though imperfectly. This has nothing to do with the real star constellations - it's a symbolic, mathematical system. In the 12-sign system, each zodiac sign = 30° of the sky = 1/12 of a year or approximately 1 month. Adding an extra house would either change each house to 28 days or extend the calendar year to 395 days, both options causing considerable
disruption.
Meanwhile, the 13th constellation known as Ophiuchus (Serpent-Bearer) has traditionally been excluded despite being a real zodiacal constellation that the Sun passes through (Nov 29–Dec 17) because its inclusion would interfere in this neat arrangement of Time.
This conflict raised the key question: should signs reflect actual time spent (Sidereal/Vedic Astrology) or be made equal-length for convention and practicality (Tropical Astrology)? 13ism's solution is to represent both. Therein, 13ism reflects real solar movement through actual sky constellations and includes both tropical and sidereal astrology in one diagram simply by using two separate wheels, one inside the other.'
But why ? Why disrupt all that because a named constellation crosses the ecliptic . Do you realize that also Scorpios claws have been cut off and shifted to Libra ? Will you shift that boundary too ?
'For THEM a critical element of Paganism is a wordless knowing that we come from the stars, and value placed on having gratitude and respect and an ability to recognise and flow with the changes of the land that affect and influence our organism and human endeavours. For us, paganism is a human connection with the land where both human and land are viewed as extensions of an identical source of nature and its changes. Given that THEM is an Australian Magickal Order,
to honour what we observe in the stars and in the land an organic representation of the elements is required that reflects our SH experience so we felt it necessary to either remedy this significant gap in Australian paganism - or at least begin re-raising and addressing the issue. The purpose of this reworking is straightforward and derives from a simple premise. Namely, if we are to work sympathetic magic to explore - or acknowledge - the influence of the celestial spheres, stars and other wonders of the world either in the changes observed in nature via our unique seasonal alchemy or applicable to personal psychology (expanded by Carl Jung), then surely, we must flow with these forms and forces in a proper attunement as they occur. We have subsequently devised a New Wheel called the Duodiac - a hybrid system that balances symbolic harmony with astronomical truth fusing Tropical (typical) Astrology (shown on an Inner Wheel), with Sidereal (Vedic) Astronomy (shown on an Outer Wheel) like a watch with two faces.
We have also developed Thirteenism (13ism) an approach to Astrology-Astronomy (Astrae) which re-includes the 13th constellation of Ophiuchus without disrupting the traditional 12 house system of the Zodiac and allowing others to import tropical astrology effortlessly. We have replaced the NH celebrations with our own event names and times to reflect our real-world experience and needs here in Australia, have assessed the Sun's path for us requires a reversal of NH deosil and widdershins, have included other important astronomical features including the lunar houses, daylight savings times, the analemma, perihelion/aphelion, annual meteor showers (given that Victoria is fortunate to have a dark sky experience) and have revised how seasons are visually represented. To signify 13isms wheel as a Southern Hemisphere device, it features an icon for Sigma Octantis, the Southern Celestial Polestar, at its heart**. The top of the diagram as it appears on screen or paper should not be interpreted as ‘North’, nor assumed to be aligned with the depicted West–East Sun-path circle, which functions as a separate observer-relative guide. The placement of the Vernal Equinox at the top reflects its conventional role as the beginning of the seasonal cycle, and as the eye tends to travel from top-down, is placed there for convenience with the Duodiac arranged in a counter-clockwise design.' - p. 473. The Corpus Themeticum 2.0 by the Temple of THEM.
*If for instance, you invert the NH model to an SH model and create a mirror-image of the thing, you fit two hemispheres together rotated at 180 degrees to one another, but accidentally create an Age of Virgo, since the SH is still beholden to the precession of the Equinox, and must then ask what do the people in the division between these hemispheres experience on the Equator line? Is there then a third Age, and so on which detonates Astrology because it's premised on a single simple (relative) approximation of Time claiming universality.
**THEM also applies its own constellations to reorient the starscape visually and overlay it thematically. We combine Crux, the Pointer Stars and parts of Centaurus to form 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' constellation, for instance, using the sky as a teaching mechanism of our lore rather than as an inherited unchangeable map. As its circumpolar stars rotate above us, it is so envisioned that the constellation is never 'upside down' (itself a fragile claim on space) - the tetrahedron (Crux) held in the Sorcerer's hand merely slightly inverts its shape as it revolves.
And inventing new constellations . I suppose so ... for your own workings . But are you really following the 'real' what is going on up there ?
Some things to consider ; the BELT of the ecliptic ( did you know the eciptic itself is but that line that all possible eclipses can occur on - hence the name ) , but planets move within the ecliptic belt . Now if you are going to use an astronomical map , look how far Cetus intrudes - are you going to have 'Cetucians ' ( they would be born on March 27th or 28th ... thats a short 'sign' ... which begs the question - what are you going to call them ... you cant call them a sign as a sign is one of 12 equal degree segments preceeding from the equinoctal point . If you make the segments all even but make a 13 zodiac you are not following 'stella reality' anyway . if you are going to make a 13 'sign' ecliptic following the unequal constellation lengths , how are you going to calculate charts and transits .
There are all the problems the Babylonians faced and worked out some time back .
What our group did for our workings on 'Stella Yoga ' :
First, practice LIber Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia . Next , each found 'their star' ( a bit of process involved with that ), next various magical practices were used to 'contact ' that star . So each has a star and not just some sign ... because, as we know, every man and every woman is a star
No. Although it feels logical, it's not true. North is in the North, no matter if you are on Northern or southern hemisphere. The Sun raises in the East. If Southern hemisphere were inverted the Sun would have to raise in the west. The means that the Earth rotates the same. The seasons re no more inverted than the time in the time zones. When I have day, on the opposite side of planet is the night but that is not inversion, it is just the time there being 12 hours ahead/behind. Same with seasons on Southern and Northern hemisphere. they are not inverted, just half year ahead/late.
In planetary astrology what matters is specific place on the planet and from there where the planets are positioned.
BTW, when you think so dualistic about south/north, what about equator?
They aren't dimensions. And every calculation regarding signs stems from Earth's cycles—seasons, equinoxes, and solstices—within a geocentric system. You'd do well to go back and study the origins of tropical astrology.
"Well, you never mentioned precession in that first post at all ." - Which first post? Do you mean my only post? Quite the paradox.
The Zodiac as part of Astrology, is relative, being an abstraction.
Hence, what you are doing with it and what THEM are doing with it, and others' do with it, suffice. Did you not just say you adopted a six-season design by the indigenous?
Astronomy is different*. 13ism and The Duodiac discuss this. The Duodiac presents both Sidereal and Tropical in one design.
Our concern with the thing is primarily to detach it from the North, align the rough star clock to observable seasonal phenomena, utilise the sky as we see fit. Hence, it is a movement, '13ism' is an astronomical/astrological subculture, that's part of a broader plan.
*Though not so different, still great confusion on a mostly religious planet. Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Gallileo fought out whether the Earth stood still for a few centuries, just to override Ptolemy and Aristotle's finite universe.
It’s exactly these kinds of arguments that made me lose interest in tropical astrology altogether.
just stick with sidereal; the whole thing is tied to the stars and that’s all, there are no seasonal issues to reconcile. Plus you have the added bonus of seeing the moon or the planet that you’re tracking next to the star it’s supposed to be. No more Aldebaran-is-in-Gemini nonsense.
that said I had never really thought about how a zodiac tied to the seasons would function outside of my own northers hemisphere and I see how that could create some cognitive dissonance.
my solution remains the same: unchain the zodiac from the seasons and give it back to the stars from whence it came and your issue is resolved.
The Zodiac as part of Astrology, is relative, being an abstraction.
Hence, what you are doing with it and what THEM are doing with it, and others' do with it, suffice. Did you not just say you adopted a six-season design by the indigenous?
I am and we were 'adopting' the local environment regarding the seasons here . if you are talking about adapting to local conditions ( south hemisphere ) why import a Euro 4 season in the first place ?
If you want to go siderail from a tropical ephemeris just subtract the appropriate number of degrees . of course you would then still in an ' equal 12 sign system - which is how most sidereal astrology works . . If you want to add a 13th sign ... just because it is there as a constellation , you have not addressed any points I bought up regarding the extended logic of that and how it would effect astrology .
Our concern with the thing is primarily to detach it from the North, align the rough star clock to observable seasonal phenomena, utilise the sky as we see fit. Hence, it is a movement, '13ism' is an astronomical/astrological subculture, that's part of a broader plan.
*Though not so different, still great confusion on a mostly religious planet. Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Gallileo fought out whether the Earth stood still for a few centuries, just to override Ptolemy and Aristotle's finite universe.
Whats that got to do with it ? To understand what I am talking about look into , how and WHY a 12 house system was settled on , how difficult it became for the Babylonians that tried a constellational approach and started the 12 system , where and why the tropical zodiac starts , , planetary movements , and what creates an 'equinoctial point ' .
I made one post. Outlining 13ism. You suggest I made two and introduced new content.
Your reading comprehension needs work. I will help you.
You said: "Well, you never mentioned precession in that first post at all . This is a new addition"
I made one post, therein mentioning all content. My first post was my only post, containing all information I intended to convey - there was no 'new addition', except in your imagination.
Your astrological understanding is your own. Ours is ours. The key point is that the existence of Tropical, Sidereal, alone mean the Zodiac is relative.
Its Relativity is the crux of our emphasis.
It depends what you are using it for . IMO natal astrology ( and traditionally general astrology was ) was based on houses and angular relationships between the 'planets' . Thats why a 12 segment 'wheel' was used . Also significance stars were used to modify - but even their 'flavors' are based on( mostly ) a combination of 2 planetary energies. Adding constellations is the third modifier . All sorts of theories can be made about this .
But tropical astrology is tied to the seasons , and on that level it can be used for agriculture and gardening . Perhaps there is some influence related to natal astrology ,( eg, if you are born in the middle of winter or summer ? ) .
It is confusing, even for some that use it . For example I used to work making preparations and agricultural remidies for Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Australia - a lot of their system is based on astological timing and associations , and even in this it is confused .... people would ring the office confused about what oit says on the bio-dynamic calander and in books .
Some insisted it cant be wrong as 'it 's in the book ' - and seemed to get confused when the differences are explained to them and why the systems are different and what their references and uses actually are .
True ... unless you are 'working with' the seasons . Then its all self-evident , if you know what you are looking at ;
Those stars are coming over the horizon just as the Sun sets (or any similar marker or arrangement ).. that means that ... in a day or two , the brown and yellow striped caterpillars will march in a line hose to tail - then you can go down to the river mouth and catch a heap of mullet ! No need to calculate from some supposed start of spring .... 'when rams are born ! ' from the north hemisphere .
I think its probably just northern and , here in Australia , 'English ' imports and bias and a whole lotta 'book learning ' .
Plus you have the added bonus of seeing the moon or the planet that you’re tracking next to the star it’s supposed to be. No more Aldebaran-is-in-Gemini nonsense.
that said I had never really thought about how a zodiac tied to the seasons would function outside of my own northers hemisphere and I see how that could create some cognitive dissonance.
my solution remains the same: unchain the zodiac from the seasons and give it back to the stars from whence it came and your issue is resolved.
or possibly even ; unchain the seasons from the concept of the northern hemisphere and the zodiac and reconnect it to the stars (ie the cosmos not just the band of the zodiac .) Then you only need a reference point on the horizon and put some poles in the ground , or make an engraving .... or even a circle of stones .
- then you will know the right time to gather emu eggs
You said: "Well, you never mentioned precession in that first post at all . This is a new addition"
I made one post, therein mentioning all content. My first post was my only post, containing all information I intended to convey - there was no 'new addition', except in your imagination.
Your astrological understanding is your own. Ours is ours. The key point is that the existence of Tropical, Sidereal, alone mean the Zodiac is relative.
Its Relativity is the crux of our emphasis.
Its not about my understanding , its about some astronomical facts that seem to be missing from what you are saying . And still no answers to some relevant questions just evasion .
Do you understand - that in stating that you applied a six-season design to your practice and understanding - that you have treated the Zodiac, which was a four-season system constructed for the Northern Hemisphere - as a modifiable model that needs adjustment to suit Southern climates - and that you have engaged in the relativity of the Zodiac?
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I will help you again.
You said "That is well known and easily understood and I live in Australia . It does not relate to what you said and claimed in the opening post ."
What opening post? My only post?
Because, if you lack reading comprehension and impute things I said to me that do not belong to things I said, nor in the order I said them, we begin from a trajectory of delusional error that is not a fertile foundation for rational discussion.
In fact, the only way to make sense of what you have done, is to assume that in your rush to make your point, you have confused me with 'The Hurricane Path' (the OP).
Even with your correction - you have still maintained what you wrote to me intact, as if your confusion at that time was a reality, thus incorrectly colouring your perception of what I said, which your correction, does not address or amend.
