Inherited Magic

[Eldros]

What would happen to a child of a witch or wizard and an ordinary person?

There are more possibilities - either the child will have magic but may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation...
The child can have no or very weak manifestation of the magical power or he might become a strong magician.
Let us consider one possible scenario - the witch gives birth to her daughter from a human. The daughter does have some magic but is quite weak. After that the girl gives birth to her son from a human too, and the son lacks any magic manifestation. But then his daughter begins to show some magical abilities.
So, magic can skip a generation and reappear later.

What do you think? Can it skip a generation, or does it disappear if a witch/wizard has a child with a human?

 

[MorganBlack]

In Vodou, Mexican Brujeria, and Indigenous New World traditions support the idea that a person can be born with what they call a " spiritual court" - composed of inherited spirit allies through family blood.

In Haitian Vodou your spiritual court is a matrix of ancestors, spirits that surround you, most , but not all, from birth. The lwa eritaj are the ancestral spirits that are passed down through a family line.

Modern pagans has stated adopting this term - spiritual court - about a decade ago, but I should point out person’s spiritual court is not chosen . There is no pick-and-mix - "do whatever' because are not chosen by the individual. They are inherited through blood descent and form a matrix of ancestors and spirits,that surround you from birth, or that become attached through life experiences.

The court is deeply tied to the family's lakou or homestead - and the land itself. It's more a relational obligation, and not so much a personal toolkit. Refusing to serve one's inherited lwa eritaj is not an option as they can become a persecuting power, and become a source of illness and misfortune for the person and their family.

Also the inheritance is not always a guaranteed. It can weaken and the active practice of magic can indeed skip generations, requiring a new personal connection to be revive them.

In Pagan and Anglo witchcraft spaces a" Spirit Court" is more defined as your personal pantheon of spirit allies who work closely with you as a cohesive spiritual team. This "court" can include deities, angels, demons, fae, ancestors, djinn, animal guides. All good but these are chosen, more like a sorcerer might. Here the practitioner is the one who builds it and then act as the High Priest or Priestess of their own spiritual house, but it is mostly unconnected to their ancestral history and lands.

Anyway, this is why a Norse Pagan living in the Florida Everglades makes no sense to me. The Everglades has no winter, and instead has hurricanes, mosquitoes, swamps and the warm Caribbean waters. In Heathen practice, the landwights are spirits of a specific place - the rivers, mountains, and forests of Scandinavia. They are already in a complicated relationship with the land. Florida as part of the former Spanish Caribbean, was part of the Spanish Empire, longer than it has been part of the US.

 

[Eldros]

In Vodou, Mexican Brujeria, and Indigenous New World traditions support the idea that a person can be born with what they call a " spiritual court" - composed of inherited spirit allies through family blood.

In Haitian Vodou your spiritual court is a matrix of ancestors, spirits that surround you, most , but not all, from birth. The lwa eritaj are the ancestral spirits that are passed down through a family line.

Modern pagans has stated adopting this term - spiritual court - about a decade ago, but I should point out person’s spiritual court is not chosen . There is no pick-and-mix - "do whatever' because are not chosen by the individual. They are inherited through blood descent and form a matrix of ancestors and spirits,that surround you from birth, or that become attached through life experiences.

The court is deeply tied to the family's lakou or homestead - and the land itself. It's more a relational obligation, and not so much a personal toolkit. Refusing to serve one's inherited lwa eritaj is not an option as they can become a persecuting power, and become a source of illness and misfortune for the person and their family.

Also the inheritance is not always a guaranteed. It can weaken and the active practice of magic can indeed skip generations, requiring a new personal connection to be revive them.

In Pagan and Anglo witchcraft spaces a" Spirit Court" is more defined as your personal pantheon of spirit allies who work closely with you as a cohesive spiritual team. This "court" can include deities, angels, demons, fae, ancestors, djinn, animal guides. All good but these are chosen, more like a sorcerer might. Here the practitioner is the one who builds it and then act as the High Priest or Priestess of their own spiritual house, but it is mostly unconnected to their ancestral history and lands.

Anyway, this is why a Norse Pagan living in the Florida Everglades makes no sense to me. The Everglades has no winter, and instead has hurricanes, mosquitoes, swamps and the warm Caribbean waters. In Heathen practice, the landwights are spirits of a specific place - the rivers, mountains, and forests of Scandinavia. They are already in a complicated relationship with the land. Florida as part of the former Spanish Caribbean, was part of the Spanish Empire, longer than it has been part of the US.

So in some traditions, spiritual inheritance can weaken or even skip a generation rather than just disappear.
That actually fits pretty well with what I was thinking about magical heredity - maybe the ability can just lie dormant for a while and show up again later...

 

[Accipeveldare]

What would happen to a child of a witch or wizard and an ordinary person?

There are more possibilities - either the child will have magic but may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation...
The child can have no or very weak manifestation of the magical power or he might become a strong magician.
Let us consider one possible scenario - the witch gives birth to her daughter from a human. The daughter does have some magic but is quite weak. After that the girl gives birth to her son from a human too, and the son lacks any magic manifestation. But then his daughter begins to show some magical abilities.
So, magic can skip a generation and reappear later.

What do you think? Can it skip a generation, or does it disappear if a witch/wizard has a child with a human?

I was fairly sure magick is something anyone can tap into with the level of potency if practiced properly. The only thing i would consider "inherited" magick would be if a magician had a child and passed down his/her knowledge to them.

 

[Digiquo]

Magic depends on faculties of the mind to be effective, and brains develop based off of gene expression the same as any other physical part of your body. That doesn't mean the brain necessarily loses its innate plasticity and ability to radically change throughout its development and even later into life though. So my opinion is some people are more likely to be born with a brain that is already primed for magical operations, and some people's brains are not, but because brains can be changed with deliberate exercises towards that purpose, nobody is truly without magical potential.
EDIT: This is mostly in regards to deliberate magical practice. Most people can and do use magic nearly daily in my opinion without ever really understanding what they're doing. Learning about what magic is and how to redirect those forces towards less primitive goals is what I'm primarily referring to.

 

[ewiz]

Real life isn't like Harry Potter or some other fantasy. Wizards and witches are all ordinary human people.

 

[Dyn Hysbys]

Magic is a skillset, a mindset, for many it's a Web of relationship. It's not some sort of genetic 'gift' or mystical Red Thread (a euphemism for bloodline in some witch trads).
There's so much Charmed bs in occultism.

 

[Eldros]

I was fairly sure magick is something anyone can tap into with the level of potency if practiced properly. The only thing i would consider "inherited" magick would be if a magician had a child and passed down his/her knowledge to them.

Magic is a skillset, a mindset, for many it's a Web of relationship. It's not some sort of genetic 'gift' or mystical Red Thread (a euphemism for bloodline in some witch trads).
There's so much Charmed bs in occultism.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I agree that magic can be learned and developed through practice. I was just thinking more in terms of a world where some people are naturally born with it.
.So, I don't think it necessarily has to disappear just because a witch or wizard has a child with a human. Maybe the child has very weak magic, maybe it doesn't show up at all, and maybe it shows up again in a later generation.
I’m not saying it has to be genetic or anything. I just mean that if some people are born with magic, maybe it can show up in weird ways from one generation to another...

 

[ewiz]

I was just thinking more in terms of a world where some people are naturally born with it.

I don't think we live in that world. People are born more or less physically and intellectually capable than others. In some respects, that affects their ability to do everything, including magic. But outside of certain cultural or family beliefs, and therefore cultural/family traditions being taught and passed down, nobody is inheriting magic powers from their parents.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I personally believe that magic is actually an unexpected by-product of the processes of normal human consciousness. Although not everyone who runs is Usain Bolt, as John Constantine put it: "I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic: any c*** can do it."

 

[Eldros]

Magic depends on faculties of the mind to be effective, and brains develop based off of gene expression the same as any other physical part of your body. That doesn't mean the brain necessarily loses its innate plasticity and ability to radically change throughout its development and even later into life though. So my opinion is some people are more likely to be born with a brain that is already primed for magical operations, and some people's brains are not, but because brains can be changed with deliberate exercises towards that purpose, nobody is truly without magical potential.
EDIT: This is mostly in regards to deliberate magical practice. Most people can and do use magic nearly daily in my opinion without ever really understanding what they're doing. Learning about what magic is and how to redirect those forces towards less primitive goals is what I'm primarily referring to.

Maybe magic doesn't really "skip" a generation, potential still exists, but it may not show up in everyone.
Probably everyone has some magic, but witches and wizards are just skilled at recognizing and using it.../
So it wouldn't be as simple as "magical parent equals magical child."

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:45 PM

I personally believe that magic is actually an unexpected by-product of the processes of normal human consciousness. Although not everyone who runs is Usain Bolt, as John Constantine put it: "I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic: any c*** can do it."

I kinda like that idea. Maybe anyone could have magic in them, but some people are just naturally better at using it.
..So it could still run in families without being something you simply inherit, and maybe even skip a generation or two.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:52 PM

I don't think we live in that world. People are born more or less physically and intellectually capable than others. In some respects, that affects their ability to do everything, including magic. But outside of certain cultural or family beliefs, and therefore cultural/family traditions being taught and passed down, nobody is inheriting magic powers from their parents.

Maybe magic doesn’t work like ordinary genetics.
It could lie dormant in a bloodline for a generation or two, then awaken again in a descendant.
I’m more curious -whether you think that kind of inherited potential could exist...

 

[Ben Gruagach]

There are certainly people who have an innate talent for magic, just like there are some people who have a talent for music, or art, or cooking, or math, or noticing details, or gardening, or working with animals, etc.

As others have pointed out, though, being able to do magic is a skill like any other that anyone with a bit of effort can learn.

As ewiz and Dyn Hysbys commented already, real magic isn't like Harry Potter or tv shows like Charmed. Fiction is full of "chosen ones" fantasies. It makes for a more exciting story but it's not real life.

 

[MorganBlack]

"Magic" is just what humans do, but not everybody wants to be your buddy.

What I tend to call "Sorcery" is animist.

But there are, broadly, in effect, two separate types of magic. The first anyone can do. The second anyone can do too, but it also usually takes getting acquainted. Both do not require anything from us and both really doesn't take anything special, but they are also not identical

Bear with me, I use a non-transcendental map Aristotelian cosmological that makes a distinction between a supralunar level of reality - and an "interactable" sublunar realm. Call it "Above Magic" and "Below Magic," but without any necessary moral components here, or even Cartesian directionality .

(FYI, I place the planets and the classical Celestial Spheres into the World Soul. Nobody is ascending up the Tree anywhere, sorry. We are always in the "app" level with other creatures , not the "code" level.)

Above Magic deals with the consciousness at the "code." and consciousness level of reality. Below Magic deals with the "apps" - all the messy spirits, people, and all the fun, sometimes chaotic, juicy stuff.

"Above" Magic is macrocosmic, mental, and metaphysical. It includes Chaos Magic, New Thought, the Law of Assumption, and the Prosperity Gospel. In this model, reality is fundamentally mental or energetic. Spirits are archetypes, psychological complexes, or currents of consciousness. Magic is a matter of changing your mindset, your focus, your vibration.

"Below" Magic microcosmic, sublunar, and animist. It includes sorcery, Brujeria, Solomonic magic, necromancy, Vodou, and traditional witchcraft, as well as Catholic saint magic. Here the world is populated. Spirits are persons with agency, history, preferences, and locality. Sorcery is relational: offering, negotiation, pact, obligation, kinship.

Above Magic is open to all equally. No special qualities, initiatory pacts needed. Below Magic is based on who you are, what you have done, where you have been, and who your family line is. You can't just choose to hang with spirits that do not like you.

These two realms are not the same, and have different requirements. You can translate between them, but you cannot collapse one into the other without losing something essential. The “Spirit court” is a perfect example of what goes wrong when we try.

My Houngan's spiritual court included Bawon Kriminel - a Petro Baron, a headhunter, associated with death, crime, vengeance; Met Kalfou - the Petro lwa of the crossroads, dark magic, and chaos; and Marinette - a f Petro lwa associated with revolutionary power. Even Haitians say, “OMG, what is wrong with that boy?” That is a hot, dangerous Petro court. It is not a gentle Rada court. It means he is in relationship with dangerous spirits.

If you don’t believe in spirits, it is hard to translate a court that includes Kalfou into mind-metaphysics magic. You can call it “energy with a story, a point of view, and an inclination.” But be clear, this it is hard to translate into more universal Anglo terms, and the terms do not apply across realms.

Similarly, you can't just decide to "work with" Met Kalfou. Well, you can, but you are asking for trouble. Best stick with "Above" Magic or the cooler, nicer "Below" spirits.

I hope that all makes sense.

 

[ewiz]

Maybe magic doesn’t work like ordinary genetics.
It could lie dormant in a bloodline for a generation or two, then awaken again in a descendant.
I’m more curious -whether you think that kind of inherited potential could exist...

No. This entire idea you're talking about belongs on a forum discussing fantasy fiction writing or LARPing. Magic isn't some force people have in them like midichlorians from star wars, where only the ones who have enough of it can become jedi. I think it's a ridiculous suggestion that doesn't really have a place in serious discussion.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

What is magic, so that we may understand it:
It is the attempt to do something in a non-physical way—to exert control over something in order to change it. For this reason, it is undoubtedly a science in which researchers and practitioners seek revolutionary methods and every minute connection between things.
Here, the magician is one who has searched until he has discovered ways to communicate with entities whose power far surpasses his own.
That is why I simply view it as being like the son of an old general when he meets his grandfather’s friends at the officers’ club: whoever among them sees that he resembles his grandfather in strength or in his way of thinking will turn to him more quickly than someone who calls out to you, asks for you, and meets you for the first time.

In the spiritual realm, it is said that if a child is born from his mother’s womb at the appointed time and in the place suited for the manifestation of the magical spirit, then—if he is receptive—magical power is immediately imprinted upon him as part of the continuous divine outpouring from the heavens and the cosmic spiritual current that carries magic through the rays of the planets, zodiac signs, stars, and earthly configurations.

Is this why the power of a grandchild may actually weaken, while that of a stranger may increase?
It is like artistic talents in humans: a doctor, after all, is an artist in healing people.
And a magician is an artist in painting the canvases of consciousness and applying them to reality.

There are many types of spirits, but they are of a single kind, created from the same origin, which is fire.

They are then composed of the elements; what is said to be above the moon is actually beneath Mercury, and all are fiery, powerful, and penetrating forms that, through the act of creation, have transformed from fire into effective ethereal, spiritual forms—yet they possess the ability to incarnate and take on forms. The spirits of places are known among us as the “jinn of the houses,” so say “welcome,” for, by the way, they are our neighbors.

That’s why it’s not a matter of inheritance; rather, it’s a stroke of luck that Neri, Messi’s son, is a professional soccer player like his father.

 

[Frater M.M.]

What do you think? Can it [magic] skip a generation, or does it disappear if a witch/wizard has a child with a human?

My take:

The (boring) answer is it depends on what you mean by words like "magic" and "witch" and also what you think is doing the heavy lifting in "magic".

To take three deliberately simple examples (yes, in reality, these 3 categories may co-occur within a single working and there will be other categories as well):

[1] Recipe magic with utilised material ingredients doing the heavy lifting. e.g. Hot Foot powder: make/use the stuff according to the recipe and lay it in the target’s path to drive them away.

No special “witch gene” is required, just like no special "chef gene" is required to prepare a meal; in principle the technique and materials are doing the work.

[2] Prayer magic or requests to spirits with spirits doing the heavy lifting e.g. praying to Abrahamic God to heal a loved one. (there may be offerings, and certain prayers etc but the spirits are basically doing the work unlike [1]). Again, no special “witch gene” is required, just like no special "requests gene" is required to make requests of ppl in daily life.

[3] Innate psi magic/powers doing the heavy lifting. e.g. precognition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, psychokinesis, etc. Here there is room for heritability to be involved in the variability of talents found in ppl and there is potentially room for some kind of "magic gene".

So for [1] and [2], yes J.C. is relevant ("I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic: any c*** can do it."). [3] is debatable, a reasonable topic to explore and needs empirical research. We may all have latent psi abilities, some may have psi powers and some may not, or maybe some of us can do some psi stuff and are never able to do other psi stuff.

Searching around in PubMeb, I can see that ppl are in fact beginning to investigate [3]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

:

Background: Psychic experiences are widely reported across cultures, yet their potential biological underpinnings remain poorly understood. Survey research suggests such experience may run in families, raising the possibility of genetic contributions. This study explored associations between genomic variation and self-reported psychic experiences.

...

Results: ... Most first experiences occurred before age 24, and 82% reported family members with similar experiences. Genomic analysis identified 212 single-nucleotide polymorphisms significantly associated with psychic experience scores (FDR < 0.05). The strongest association was observed for rs10410488, mapping to ARHGEF18, a gene involved in calcium-dependent dendritic growth. Other significant RSIDs mapped to genes implicated in calcium signaling, brain structure, microtubule dynamics, estrogen pathways, and retinoic acid signaling.

Conclusions: This exploratory study identified candidate genetic variants associated with self reported psychic experiences, but these findings should be considered preliminary. Future research with larger, more diverse cohorts and refined analytic methods will be essential to clarifying the genetic and neurobiological underpinnings of psychic phenomena.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk ...

 

[MorganBlack]

Nicely said, Frater M.M.!

Angelkesfarl, so good! That is so close to my own views. You have convinced me I need to study Islamic magic more to fill in the gaps in my own Neoplatonic POV.

The main topic: yeah, I don't believe in "witchblood" or similar, but maybe there is something from where modern takes are maybe getting the idea. Sublunar "Below" magic, especially the chthonic grims, I feel, have an astrological aspect that precedes to some degree who is drawn to use them.

Aphorism 5 from Turner's 1655 edition of the Arbatel de Magia Veterum:
"A man that is a true Magician, is brought forth a Magician from his mothers womb: others, who do give themselves to this office, are unhappie."

I am not a big astrology guy - much to my chagrin - but in Hellenistic and Medieval astrology, the nature person’s spirit-guide and natural calling can be identified by looking at the Oikodespotes, the Ruler of the Chart - the primary planet ruling the Ascendant, along with some other aspects. It describes the field in which the daimon operate, the “office” you were born into, the territory where your fate gets meted out.

"Daimon" is, by its Greek root, an allocator of Fate. And the nature of our Character plays a huge role in how they appear to us. Heraclitus said, “character is a man’s daimon.” The daimon allocates fate, but your character determines how that allocation appears and what it demands.

If this planet was Saturn (ruling Capricorn or Aquarius) or Mars (ruling Scorpio and Aries), or if Saturn was heavily configured to the Ascendant, the person’s life-path is bound to involve the Underworld, boundary-lines, unseen debts, and the dead. All the fun, spooky, weird-ass chthonic Sublunar ("Below " or “downward-facing” magic) that some of us are called to do.

I think. Still looking at it all.

 

[Accipeveldare]

I think we're talking about two different things here. I agree that magic can be learned and developed through practice. I was just thinking more in terms of a world where some people are naturally born with it.
.So, I don't think it necessarily has to disappear just because a witch or wizard has a child with a human. Maybe the child has very weak magic, maybe it doesn't show up at all, and maybe it shows up again in a later generation.
I’m not saying it has to be genetic or anything. I just mean that if some people are born with magic, maybe it can show up in weird ways from one generation to another...

Yes but magick is not something only certain people are born with. It is something we and our environment all embody. I dont get your logic, friend.

 

[Eldros]

No. This entire idea you're talking about belongs on a forum discussing fantasy fiction writing or LARPing. Magic isn't some force people have in them like midichlorians from star wars, where only the ones who have enough of it can become jedi. I think it's a ridiculous suggestion that doesn't really have a place in serious discussion.

I’m not saying magic is passed down exactly like genetics, or anything like the whole midichlorians thing. I just don’t think it has to follow normal genetics either....
\.If someone can be born with magical ability, they could have the potential without really showing it themselves. That potential could show up more in their descenddants.
So when I say magic can “skip” a generation, I don’t mean it disappears and randomly comes back. The potential is still there, it’s just not as obvious in one generation.
.I just find that more interesting than magic automatically getting weaker or disappearing because one parent is human.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:15 PM

My take:

The (boring) answer is it depends on what you mean by words like "magic" and "witch" and also what you think is doing the heavy lifting in "magic".

To take three deliberately simple examples (yes, in reality, these 3 categories may co-occur within a single working and there will be other categories as well):

[1] Recipe magic with utilised material ingredients doing the heavy lifting. e.g. Hot Foot powder: make/use the stuff according to the recipe and lay it in the target’s path to drive them away.

No special “witch gene” is required, just like no special "chef gene" is required to prepare a meal; in principle the technique and materials are doing the work.

[2] Prayer magic or requests to spirits with spirits doing the heavy lifting e.g. praying to Abrahamic God to heal a loved one. (there may be offerings, and certain prayers etc but the spirits are basically doing the work unlike [1]). Again, no special “witch gene” is required, just like no special "requests gene" is required to make requests of ppl in daily life.

[3] Innate psi magic/powers doing the heavy lifting. e.g. precognition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, psychokinesis, etc. Here there is room for heritability to be involved in the variability of talents found in ppl and there is potentially room for some kind of "magic gene".

So for [1] and [2], yes J.C. is relevant ("I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic: any c*** can do it."). [3] is debatable, a reasonable topic to explore and needs empirical research. We may all have latent psi abilities, some may have psi powers and some may not, or maybe some of us can do some psi stuff and are never able to do other psi stuff.

Searching around in PubMeb, I can see that ppl are in fact beginning to investigate [3]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

:



Thank you for coming to my TED talk ...

I suppose I meant the third one --magic being an innate trait. It is not quite like the magic gene, in which you are either blessed or you do not have it.
..One may inherit the possibility of having magic powers, although not all will have the same.
So, in my example, it appears that the grandson is completely void of magic, but he could have passed on the possibility to the daughter, who then develops her magical traits...

 

[Robert Ramsay]

[3] Innate psi magic/powers doing the heavy lifting. e.g. precognition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, psychokinesis, etc. Here there is room for heritability to be involved in the variability of talents found in ppl and there is potentially room for some kind of "magic gene".

I am of the opinion that it's independent of genetics - everything I've researched shows this "innate" magic to be the same as the other kind of magic. What I think is important is whether you develop the way of looking at things, the kind of thinking, the mental techniques that enable a person to do magic. How well you get to grips with those is what makes you a good or bad magician.

As I said before, I consider magic to be an unexpected by-product of normal human consciousness; something so fundamental that you would not be a person without it.

You might, I suppose, have genetic predispositions that make it harder to get your head round the necessary techniques, but, as we know, most forms of neurodiversity do not seem to be a barrier to magical success, so I'm not sure what those genetic predispositions might be. Maybe if you were born without a corpus callosum.