[Help] Is Compulsion Really Necessary for a Safe Goetic Evocation?

[nergall]

Hey everyone,

I'm a beginner in ceremonial magic and I have never performed an evocation myself, although I've spent quite a bit of time reading about the subject. I've read several works related to Goetic and Solomonic magic, including Dr. Rudd's Goetia, Joseph H. Peterson's edition of the Lemegeton, the Grimorium Verum, the Key of Solomon, and others.

During my studies, I've been wondering about something that I haven't been able to completely resolve:

Is compelling and commanding the spirits really the only way to perform a safe Goetic evocation?

I find the traditional structure of the Ars Goetia very interesting. I can understand the purpose of things such as banishings, the circle, the triangle, the seals, divine names, and the various protective elements of the ritual. I can see how these could serve to establish boundaries and protect both the practitioner and the ritual itself.

What I'm less certain about is the idea that the spirits must necessarily be treated as essentially evil beings who have to be compelled, threatened, or forced to obey.

I have more than 15 years of experience practicing Brazilian Kimbanda, and, from my own experience and understanding, I don't regard the Exus as inherently evil beings. They can certainly work with aspects that might be considered morally or socially "grey," but that doesn't necessarily make them evil or hostile by nature.

I'm not trying to equate Exus with the Goetic spirits, since I understand that they come from very different traditions. I'm only mentioning this because it has influenced the way I approach the question of spirits in general. It makes me wonder whether there might be another way of establishing a relationship with Goetic spirits without necessarily adopting either a coercive model or a devotional one.

I've also come across modern Luciferian and other non-traditional approaches to Goetia. I find some of them interesting, but I'm somewhat hesitant about approaches that effectively deify the spirits or treat them as objects of worship. That feels like going too far in the opposite direction for me.

So I'm wondering whether there is a middle ground:

Could a Goetic evocation be approached respectfully and cooperatively, while still maintaining the traditional protective structure of the ritual?

In other words, is it possible to retain things like the circle, banishings, protective divine names, and the traditional ritual framework, but replace the idea of outright compulsion with something closer to respectful negotiation, invitation, or formal pact/relationship?

I'm particularly interested in perspectives from people who have actually practiced Goetic evocation, rather than purely theoretical opinions. I'm also curious whether there are historical sources or older grimoires that support anything resembling this approach, rather than it being entirely a modern reinterpretation.

Please be kind — this is a genuine question from someone who is still at the beginning of practical work, and I'm trying to understand the different approaches before attempting my first evocation.

Thanks!

 

[r4zorenigma]

You can be respectful -- you don't have to be disrespectful, mean or aggressive.. But you must be direct and authorative. You want to direct the energies and be commanding.. Not optimistic in your approach or suggestive. You are in control, and you want to be clear in your directions and commanding.

I would compare it to being a team leader, a manager, etc.. If you are not authorative and direct in your commands, peolpe are likely to not listen or not care as much as if you are.. now if you are straight up mean, aggressive or disrespectful, its hard to convince anyone of anything.

Regardless, if you have successfully evoked the being, its bound to listen to you-- however-- your suggestions and optimistic behavior is the equivalent of telling someone to broom around a little bit when asking them to clean a room.. rather than to make sure things are spotless. Goetic beings are malevolent energies.. They're not practical or reasonable.. Some have attitudes / energies of weeping and laziness and burdensome.. and some are overly direct, blunt, will cause your intentions to run throuh or over people to get to the outcome.. causing chaos in your life.. This is probably because not only the names, but the images and intentions infused into these goetic beings are all of low quality / low vibrational/ negative, loathing energies..

Some of my friends and colleagues over the years advise to write out well written contracts for your intention.. being super thorough and divisive, like writing a business contract. <-- I would agree with this and from my experience it becomes almost necessary to make sure things happen in ways you want and not ways you do not want.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

I haven't tried the Western version of the guita...
But based on my experience in the East, coercion isn’t the first resort—it’s the last resort you use when the ritual fails and the spirits are reluctant.
But in truth, after many, many successful experiments, I can tell you that if you follow the basic rituals correctly, you’ll usually not need to coerce or Compulsion the spirits.
As for the structural nature of the text itself, there are many different sections, and among them there are certainly those that serve the purpose.

The sciences, sections, invocations, invocations, and evocations are all part of a single path. If someone before you strayed from the fundamentals, the words and meanings can be altered—this is the “art of recitation.”

If you have mastered this, then you can express whatever you want using all manner of expressions—it will not cause you to fail.

But beware: they are creatures of fire, and for this reason, they crave power.

 

[nunaphael]

I've worked with my own personalized version of goetia for around 17 years and here has been my attitude and approach to it from day one.

It's like your first day on the new job.

You want to be on your best behavior, you don't really know how everything works, but you studied and got approved, so clearly you're ready to start, you just need to be listening and patient and put the work in that's necessary. Initially, it's a lot to take in, and you are expected to make mistakes, and you will be forgiven for them and "trained" when you need to be. Not in harsh ways at first, they can be quite nurturing and gentle at first (unless you're rude to them up front) but repeated mistakes that demonstrate laziness or intentional ignorance will receive more severe "corrections", as they do not have infinite patience, and some don't have very much to begin with.

Now skip forward past the initial getting the hang of it phase. A few weeks or months in, if you really were ready and you aren't screwing around, you'll find it's second nature in no time. The demons become your co-workers, and even the ones that act as your "bosses" will look forward to seeing you "putting the work in" and being a good role model for others. You will earn what in seidr they call "megin", which is basically like... your infernal credit score, like having "company credit" where the company takes care of you. The more work you put in, the easier it is to arrange time off, or do whatever it is that you want within the "company". If you want to move up, you can. If there's a really cool job, you'll be the first pick, instead of having to do "beginner" stuff forever.

Skip even further ahead, to where you have earned "rank" because you worked hard and were reliable and always showed up on time. Now you can command demons using your own name at that point, for a lot of "minor" tasks. Think of it as a hierarchy that is run almost exactly the same way a modern international corporation is run. There is a professionalism to it, even though sometimes you get some really wild characters you are interacting with. It's just like that in reality too, there will be really "unstable" or "zany" types of people you run into in every industry, usually the hyper creative types that lay all the golden eggs, but their antics piss a lot of people off. Think of people like Hideo Kojima, or Steve Jobs. Some demons can be the equivalent of the same "trickster" energy, and you gotta know how to reign those types in eventually.

It's all highly reasonable, even when it's unreasonable. That's been my experience with demons. I have never had to "compell" them, it's more like, when you "command" them using angelic names or whatever, you are no different from the wing commander in a squad giving an order in the midst of an operation. It's not personal, it's functional, and the demons understand, in fact, they appreciate it, because it establishes the "protocol" and makes everything clear. There's a huge diversity of demonic entities that you will run into, but since the whole point of such contact is to do business and make things happen, usually business can be done as long as a compromise can be reached and clearly understood by all involved parties. Clear communication is critical, and again, most of these entities will be forgiving when it comes to a minor faux pax, as long as your intentions are understood and you weren't trying to be rude. Like if some foreigner mispronounces your name, but they meant no disrespect by it and were in the midst of thanking you gratefully. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

Dr Stephen Skinner has a number of videos on YouTube about his performance of evocation with the goetic spirits, he emphasizes the importance of the “binding” of the spirit, for several reasons. One thing is that if you summon the spirit and don’t bind it to you, the next time you call that spirit, SOMEONE ELSE could possibly show up, also the protection of making sure they tell you the truth, don’t hurt you or your possessions or loved ones as they carry out your request.

I have never been in a situation where I felt the need or that it was appropriate to menace or bully a spirit. Now I DO agree with Senor Skinner about the importance of having a sharp sword, but I’ve never had to brandish it or imply that I was going to cut them with it.

of course spirits aren’t people like us, but I definitely think that there would automatically be a difference between approaching someone with confidence and authority as opposed to threats and verbal abuse. I mean think about yourself in that context. You’re comfortably existing in your own little world, doing your thing in your own home (your dimension) and someone pulls up in front of your house blaring loud music that just grinds your gears, reeking of weed, cigarettes , stale cologne and liquor, like they haven’t bathed in a month, and the first thing out of their mouth is “hey B—-, get down here or else I’m gonna F—- you up and get others to torment you, get over here right F—-Ing now, or else!” Oh yeah, what a great way to win friends and influence people.

They definitely aren’t your friends when you first encounter them and may never be your friend, but you can at least treat them with some respect and appreciate the fact that they’re not overly excited to be in our dimension, and do what you can to make them feel comfortable and welcome (correct incense, ritual bath, nice smelling water like rose water, maybe some food or drink, FACING THE RIGHT DIRECTION so you don’t summon them to your back or side, and hurt their feelings, greet them according to their titles, etc,) you might be the magician but they’re not your slaves or some kind of nobody to treat like peons.

of course you need to be aware of yourself and the boundaries of working with spirits (i freaking HATE IT when people say “working with” in most cases but in this case you’re working on a goal and soliciting help).

But yeah, definitely recommend checking out some of Dr Skinners videos on YouTube for some good pointers.

 

[Faria]

Hi! Please understand that I mean all of this in your interest and for your benefit, and try not to take offense.

Also understand that I'm the Lone Ranger when it comes to my opinions on this, you won't find books or teachers who will support this. That's too bad, eh? But that's why you ask for someone who knows from experience and not from theory. It's very likely that you're not going to enjoy what I have to say. I'm ok with that. Consider that it might be in your interest to pay attention.

What I'm less certain about is the idea that the spirits must necessarily be treated as essentially evil beings who have to be compelled, threatened, or forced to obey.

Can you imagine a force of evil that makes you happy and successful? People expect evil to be scary or destructive, but a lot of what's actually destructive is hard to see as such. A pleasant, peaceful person who spreads cheer about something awful is still bad.

Look for example at Poke Runyon. He literally worships Baal and Astarte, two of the spirits who are otherwise conjured. He gets to prance around his man-cave and enjoy his half-dozen disciples... but what else? The spirits have gained thousands of followers who sacrifice whatever to them, as a result of Runyon's work, but what has he got? Not a whole lot. He's doing service for them. Fuck that! Make the spirits serve you. Make them fulfill your real personal goals.

Ever notice that it's hard to get ahead in life? Why? Not any particular person, just a conglomeration of factors. People thinking that doing XYZ will make life better, but it leads to life being worse for everyone. That is a result of idolatry: embrasure of false ideals. Tear down that work and get free of it.

I have more than 15 years of experience practicing Brazilian Kimbanda,

Devil worship. Drop it. Forget it.

Kimbanda is just Brazilian Wicca. It has the same roots: 1920's cult BS mixed with 1970's cult BS. Sex and scams. Ditch it.

I'm not trying to equate Exus with the Goetic spirits, since I understand that they come from very different traditions.

I do. The list of Goetia spirits includes several of the Orishas of ATR cults. The book itself says that the spirits were all once worshiped as gods... those gods? That's them. Europeans encountered foreign religions and recorded their gods as demons. It's the same spirits, same offices, often even the same names albeit obscured or badly written. People will tell you there's not a bunch of book support for this idea, and maybe not, but this is the fact.

Solomonic demon evocation is 100% about enslaving other people's gods.

All of those gods are idols, false gods, illusions crafted around natural/ordinary things to give the semblance of power to these fictions. Solomonic magic is about invoking the true God to force those things into submission.

Could a Goetic evocation be approached respectfully and cooperatively, while still maintaining the traditional protective structure of the ritual?

Are you familiar with the Magna Carta? The relationship dynamics are similar. The king was forced to sign the Magna Carta, and compelled to act in accordance for centuries afterward. Is this disrespectful and un-cooperative toward the king? Maybe? But so what.

These are not people with families to feed. They are the root and sustaining power beneath everything that sucks in the universe. They are not your friends or helpers. Bind them and overcome the temptations they offer.

In other words, is it possible to retain things like the circle, banishings, protective divine names, and the traditional ritual framework, but replace the idea of outright compulsion with something closer to respectful negotiation, invitation, or formal pact/relationship?

If you are going to redesign the rituals, begin at the beginning. Include none of the symbols, names, or structural elements from the ritual. Don't cut the thing apart and try to rebuild it. That's what almost everyone does, and why almost everyone fails.

The biggest hurdle is not the lion-skin and the linen robe, it's the God question. Just set Goetia aside for a bit and memorize all the prayers in Book 5: Artem Novem. Do that until you mean it.

There is virtually zero danger from the spirits themselves. All the danger in magic comes from wanting dumb things and getting what you wanted. You want dumb things because you are walking through a web of lies crafted by evil spirits, misleading you about what is good and proper. Wanting bad things for yourself leads to your life sucking, so the answer is to bind those spirits. Make them submit or relegate them into the everlasting fire, and either way you are better off in the end.