Is dealing with Andras for the first time in goetia suicidal? I think it obviously looks like, but maybe someone has something to tell.

[lunaticloverMMXIV]

 

[A.Nox]

Andras is not dangerous by default. The real question is whether you have enough control to direct what he amplifies.
He is precise — and unforgiving toward lack of control.

 

[Lucien6493]

Andras is not dangerous by default. The real question is whether you have enough control to direct what he amplifies.
He is precise — and unforgiving toward lack of control.

Care to elaborate on that a bit? A few pages of scintillating analysis will do for now. A dissertation would be ideal, but it's only Monday. I suspect that there is more to this feathered fiend than his resume would indicate. I mean, "kill or be killed" is hardly an incentive even, or perhaps especially not then if you have the kind of temper that slips out sideways and makes Andras want to unionize, modern day squeamishness aside.

If I wanted to take the literal (psychologizing) approach to his characterization then he is the breaker of alliances that were never real, the eruption of suppressed hostility, the exposure of incoherent motives, the archetype of misrule that reveals the truth of a system and the termination of politics as we know it, never mind social discourse in polite society. In other words, he is a destabilizing force within the operator. So, you are saying he is "safe" so long as you are going after a controlled demolition? In modern application, I would agree with that, but in the context of the time period within which he first appears I suspect that we are dealing with a deliberate blind because his actual function would have been extremely valuable, sought after, and of such a nature as would make secrecy well worth the trouble. I would look to his orthography, which strikes me as decidedly alchemical cipher -- wolf, sword, head of a raven -- for clues.

Sorry, not about to test out that theory. He has been hanging about my inner temple periphery like a Hells Angels prospect at a wedding reception and that is as far as he is going to get, for now.

 

[A.Nox]

Care to elaborate on that a bit? A few pages of scintillating analysis will do for now. A dissertation would be ideal, but it's only Monday. I suspect that there is more to this feathered fiend than his resume would indicate. I mean, "kill or be killed" is hardly an incentive even, or perhaps especially not then if you have the kind of temper that slips out sideways and makes Andras want to unionize, modern day squeamishness aside.

If I wanted to take the literal (psychologizing) approach to his characterization then he is the breaker of alliances that were never real, the eruption of suppressed hostility, the exposure of incoherent motives, the archetype of misrule that reveals the truth of a system and the termination of politics as we know it, never mind social discourse in polite society. In other words, he is a destabilizing force within the operator. So, you are saying he is "safe" so long as you are going after a controlled demolition? In modern application, I would agree with that, but in the context of the time period within which he first appears I suspect that we are dealing with a deliberate blind because his actual function would have been extremely valuable, sought after, and of such a nature as would make secrecy well worth the trouble. I would look to his orthography, which strikes me as decidedly alchemical cipher -- wolf, sword, head of a raven -- for clues.

Sorry, not about to test out that theory. He has been hanging about my inner temple periphery like a Hells

Fair read. But the internal / external split is kinda artificial imo.
Andras doesnt destabilize the operator or the structure. He finds load- bearing fractures — wherever they are — and applies pressure. Operator is often just the nearest one.
- Controlled demolition- only works if you can name the target AND hold position while it comes down. Most cant do either. Thats where the old warning comes from. Not malice. Load transfer.
Your instinct to keep him at the periphery is sound tho. He doesnt negotiate well with ambivalence.

Personally I prefer him over the “easier” ones. Hot, chaotic spirits burn through whatever you bring them — your intent included. Andras is cold. He resonates with what you actually are, not what youre projecting. Easier to work with someone precise than someone loud

 

[Lucien6493]

Fair read. But the internal / external split is kinda artificial imo.
Andras doesnt destabilize the operator or the structure. He finds load- bearing fractures — wherever they are — and applies pressure. Operator is often just the nearest one.
- Controlled demolition- only works if you can name the target AND hold position while it comes down. Most cant do either. Thats where the old warning comes from. Not malice. Load transfer.
Your instinct to keep him at the periphery is sound tho. He doesnt negotiate well with ambivalence.

Personally I prefer him over the “easier” ones. Hot, chaotic spirits burn through whatever you bring them — your intent included. Andras is cold. He resonates with what you actually are, not what youre projecting. Easier to work with someone precise than someone loud

Saturnine then. The Nigredo (head of the crow) and the Gray Wolf of Antimony as his mount. The body of a man. The sword of separation. So Andras is who you might call upon to reveal to you certain secrets of the Great Work. I can go with that, especially if you put it in terms of load-bearing structure, which has maximal ambiguity and ambivalence pretty much built in, as does ATU XIII (Death) as opposed to say ATU XVI (The Tower). Perhaps then a Spirit of Nun, between Victory and Beauty.

 

[A.Nox]

Saturnine then. The Nigredo (head of the crow) and the Gray Wolf of Antimony as his mount. The body of a man. The sword of separation. So Andras is who you might call upon to reveal to you certain secrets of the Great Work. I can go with that, especially if you put it in terms of load-bearing structure, which has maximal ambiguity and ambivalence pretty much built in, as does ATU XIII (Death) as opposed to say ATU XVI (The Tower). Perhaps then a Spirit of Nun, between Victory and Beauty.

Saturnine fits. Nigredo even better — thats the function not just the iconography.
He doesnt destroy he decomposes. The distinction matters operationally.Nun between Netzach and Tiphareth is a sharp read. Path of Death between Victory and Beauty — passage through dissolution into something more refined.
Andras as the corridor not the destination — that lines up with what I see in practice: he leaves you with less, but what stays is structurally sound.The Tower comparison is the right cut. It removes without asking.
Andras does — but then holds you to whatever you answered.

Im curious how far youd push that on the Tree — keep him on Nun or shift it more toward Tzaddi.
Not many people here think in structure , most just collect names.

 

[thepolestar]

Andras is a predator, and could probably be called an apex predator. I can't tell you whether it's dangerous for you to call him or not, but if you are not in a good space mentally, or if you don't know how to banish what you summon, or if you are unfamiliar with Underworld spirits, then he's probably not the right Goetic spirit to call on.

Maybe get introduced to the Goetia through friendlier spirits like Eligos and Bune before literally evoking Andras, the original hitman.