[Help] Is joining the catholic church worth it for protection in the working with infernal spirits?

[FireBorn]

consorting with "demons." And who does that here on this forum?

I do. Every. Single. Day. And its the jam. This is the LHP subforum. OP asked about working with demons. The Catholic/religious preaching should go right over into the Religion subforum.

 

[MorganBlack]

Oh dammit. You are right. Wrong place to go into it.

Well, you do. And me as well. And a handful of others.

But I was not preaching, just qualifying what the Church means by he word "magic" is not at all what 95% of what is called magic by most people here. Sorcery mostly is. Malefica 100% is. It's a common misconception. Nobody really cares about your chi-balls, Bardonian pore breathing exercises, or imagining what you want. Carry on, good folks.

 

[Ohana]

I don’t understand your metaphor about artist and quadratic formulas come. What are you trying to explain with that?

I was just trying to create a visualization of what I think using YHWH as a binding force against infernaI entities reaIIy entails to the OP. I don't think it wouId work on aII of them and I personally think it makes more sense to understand the entity and using discernemnt and basic protections that would work for any entity rather than getting a middle enitity? Involved that might not even work a 100 percent of the time.

I used math vs humanities metaphor to illustrate that since if someone wants heIp from someone in the humanities it makes more sense to just do research on what the person you want help from does beforehand, ask directly, but make sure that someone asking isn't too trusting of them and has basic discernement.

It seems like more leg work to go to a different department that the person asking isn't even affiliated with yet to get help. Especially if not everyone will listen to the entity in the middle facilitating this and some might even become annoyed at this damaging future prospects.

Math vs Humanities seems also like a good pick because math despite not being affiliated with humanities is generaIIy seen as to have more sway and power and this is using power to institute change on an entity using another entity with not as much affiliation.

You say that one should study the mythology before practicing, and for some reason you describe finding it funny to imagine YHWH going off to threaten the spirits.

No I find it funny to caII it an entourage. I should have specified more and probably not have chosen West Side Story to compare it too. The calling it an entourage is funny to me because entourage does not make me think of intimidating gang. Its too fancy of a word. It makes me more think of a MusicaI group or a group of theater peopIe going around performing which is in stark contrast to the image of intimidating entity thus the hilarity.

Canaanite deities who lost out to the cult of YHWH or appear directly in the Torah: Baal/Bael, Astarte, Beelzebub, Moloch, Ha-Satan, Asmodai.

Most of these yeah but MoIoch is contended entity to even reaIIy existing archeologically speaking and Ha-Satan literally just means adversary and in a OT context can sometimes be used to describe a position in the heirarchy not attributed to one single entity. Only in christianiazation did it change to the figure of actuaI adversary that was cast out and not there anymore and in that context I'm pretty sure supposed to leave out the Ha.

A better metaphor would simply be that they are workers, and you're going to report them to their boss if they don't obey you. In any case, it's really not clear to me what point you're trying to make.

In this metaphor I would add on that your reporting them to their ex-boss if they reaIIy did leave. They wouIdn't be working there anymore in this metaphor.

The point I was trying to make is what I already described above in my opinion I think thats its too much effort to do all that and make sure you just go directIy to there and ask whiIe using basic discernement and protection.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Kind of a funny image, an angry Jewish woman screaming at the Devil to make him release souls from eternal damnation.

Normally a role for the mother-in-law

 

[Ohana]

I’m not saying the history between traditional magic and the Church isn't fraught - it’s a very complex, multi-century cage match. I’m saying the degree of semantic blindness required to use their worst word for spiritual violation and expect a polite nod is utterly insane. What they mean by "magic " is what I mean by the word sorcery. And sorcery is mean-hearted.

This is the exact same modern trap as the word "witch." Historically, that word meant nothing good - it meant maleficium, malicious harm, that;s it, period - not nature mystism - until L. Frank Baum (a Theosophist with deep esoteric ties) wrote The Wizard of Oz. "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" Modern people imported a 20th-century pop-rebrand and expected ancient working definitions to go along with it, then act superior when they don't match the media expectations. It's silly.

When a modern "magic" energy worker uses the word - yeah, not the same - and look how much of what is done here is "energy" not demons nor daimons. Ya'll mean a mix of psychological archetypes, Chaos magic emotional symbols, shadow work, energy manipulation, New Age philosophy, and personal growth. It’s light and s soft, it’s basically wellness therapy culture with candles and a little edge. All good. I like some of it myself. But it is not sorcery. Never was, never will be.

When Rome uses the word "magic", they aren't talking about your chi-ball laser fingers or your edgy inner child. In the Catholic canonical framework, "magic" is a technical term for spiritual treason. It is defined - by design, for over fifteen hundred years - as an attempt to bypass divine authority, make pacts with predatory spirits, and commit spiritual assault against the rational order of the cosmos, and descend into what we moderns might call mental illness or madness. In their taxonomy, "magic" doesn't live in the same category as philosophy or meditation, or New Thought - it lives in the same moral bucket as rape, murder, but not for the reason modern magic think.

The only serious thing the Church actually has a fundamental issue with, depending on which flavor of Catholicism you're talking about, is consorting with "demons." And who does that here on this forum? And frankly, even the "demons" of the early modern grimoires are hardly the comic-book monsters of modern pop-exorcism. They were often understood within a complex, highly Christianized, celestial hierarchy that was less mythic literalist than most modern hot-takes.

Anyway, it’s a total translation failure. Trying to debate a 2,000-year-old legalistic empire using definitions picked up on the internet last week is absurd. They don't hate Chi-balls, or Jungian shadow work, or energy, or trees because they don't understand them.

With all this about magic though I think this probably is what was said on paper by the church due to peopIe being peopIe I wouId aIso Iike to point out how the persecution of magic practioners was tied to discrimination of peopIe that were seen as sub-human in the eyes of society like the disabled, older unwed women, and racism.

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Just look at this case and this is from a very very brief not extensive research into the topic. I know you are knowledgeable about this topic and want to acknowledge that but I also want to provide this context as weII to the history of persecuting magic practioners and some didn't even engage in this spirtuaI violence like that and were instead just part of a group of peopIe already deemed untrustworthy by the greater society at Iarge and falsely accused of it.

I also want to mention that even though some of these spirtuaI may in fact be vioIent not just to the church but just in generaI the church responded back with vioIence to that in some eras and I do not think was justified. This response back I think shouId aIso be brought up so as to not ignore and brush under the rug what these peopIe went through. This explanation of this history feeIs Ike a rose colored view of it so I just wanted to add some nuance to the points brought up.