[Opinion] Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?

[Grayhoss]

In my opinion, magic. Religions, as far as magic goes, are codified magical models.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2026

which indeed?

You're approaching it from a very European model. In animism there is no difference; magick and religion are part of eachother. They developed together and are expressions of eachother and as has been said previously by another poster Indigenous animistic 'religion' doesn't even trouble to recognize 'religion' as a separate category from 'the experience of reality' or magick as separate from either.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

You're approaching it from a very European model. In animism there is no difference; magick and religion are part of each other. They developed together and are expressions of each other and as has been said previously by another poster Indigenous animistic 'religion' doesn't even trouble to recognize 'religion' as a separate category from 'the experience of reality' or magick as separate from either.

You are correct, but it can still stand that you need a structure in which to implement the magic, regardless of whether you call it, or even think of it, as a religion.

I understand that I look at these things from a very detached (European?) point of view, because that is how I came to understand magic

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Well, it depends on case. If one looks at the major religions of the world, or as they are known based on their founder Abraham; "Abrahamic religions", albeit their supposed denial of magic practices, they all are full to the brim with recorded magical practices, some detailed some not. For example, Christianity has the mention of the Bronze Snake that God commanded Moses to craft during the wilderness (Book of Numbers 21:4-9). The Serpent had healing properties and the person bit by a venomous snake was able to heal themselves just by looking at the snake.

In Islam, we have the Surah Al-Fatiha prayer who is recited to seek protection and recovery from illness.

In Judaism then comes the Mi Shebeirach prayer which means a communal prayer recited during Torah services asking God for refu'ah shleimah (complete healing) of both body and spirit.

I could extend longer on this but that would mean 10-20 or even more paragraphs as to how much mainstream religions actually have references, subtle and not-so-subtle-at-all references to magic.

Now, when it comes to whether magic is to be applied with religion, I think it depends more on the practitioner's choice. In my opinion, religion is what provides the starting point / background for magical practices, the exoteric side of things. The esoteric one comes then when someone wishes to know the hidden things behind the religion they may or may not practice, or are interested to practice. The idea is to strip away the useless political, dogmatic and power-limiting aspects that are dictated today by various modern "gurus" and phony practitioners of the occult that suffer from ego and power trips.

For example, one may have an eclectic path (multiple practices), and they can integrate reading Psalms (also found in Christianity), with Runes, Rosaries, and any other suitable methods. The craft is the result of what you, as the practicioner decide to put on the canvas called the path, essentially after receiving valuable spiritual insight that some form of practice from a religion will fit your work or not.

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

This is how we distinguish between magic and religion: in religion, you seek refuge in the name of God and His attributes, and the matter does not require any rituals or complexities. In the example, the man simply recited the Fatiha, took some of his own saliva, and applied it to the bite, and he was healed. Here, the driving force is his faith in God.
Magic, however, requires complex rituals to communicate with these entities.

Religion and magic are two different things (if that is what you are asking ? ) ... that is why we have two very different names ( with different roots and etymology ) for them , they derive from completely different linguistic roots and historical concepts in Latin and Persian.

What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.

i think looking around in the world and seeing the absolute multitude of spiritual practices, which do not conform to any clean division of religion or magic, the only valid response can be that magic and religion are arbitrary and culturally specific boundaries drawn on a terrain that is both and neither at the same time

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...

Because of that, religion can contain magic, but religion is not reducible to magic.

I agree with you within the framework of my basic idea, which is that religion came first because it came with Adam and Eve when they were sent down to Paradise, while magic arose from the interactions of their descendants later on.

Its up to the new religious system/people in it what it wants to do and I think no matter what religion despite its origins maybe being magick doesn't have to include it but it can and in certain parts of religions or entire religions it does. It just depends on the religion.

Do I understand from what you've said that the difference between religion and magic is that religion is a divine matter that comes from God, while magic is a purely human creation?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2026

magick and religion are part of eachother.

I disagree—they are not the same thing; rather, they are distinct. Religion is about justice, mercy, and morality, whereas magic is purely utilitarian, regardless of the rituals involved.

I understand that I look at these things from a very detached (European?) point of view, because that is how I came to understand magic

I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

It's purely because I came to magic by looking for a scientific explanation of how it works. I started with parapsychology, which is the closest thing to a mainstream study of magic. After a lot of research, I discovered that much of parapsychology is actually a subset of magic.

 

[ahathoor]

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...

I wouldn't even reduce it to being about Abrahamic vs. non-Abrahamic... even though the Torah speaks of sorcery being forbidden, and sorcerers as challenges to the faith of Israel, what we today see in Western discussion as religion vs. magic is a markedly hybrid Greco-Roman-Hebrew distinction, and from my limited understanding, this partially informs the similar distinction in Islamic culture via Hellenistic influence. And in many areas within say, Christianity, the distinction is highly unclear. Eg. the Catholic mass, with its rules and ontological content, is not much different from many related forms of theurgic magical operation, but it is canonically approved.

My point is that "magic" and "religion" are arbitrary boundaries, that only have validity on some spiritual terrains (eg. in Hellenic polytheism and Abrahamic religions)... in some cases the lines are more clear, like in Calvinism or Salafism, while in others more permeable, like in Catholicism or Sufism. Even though, say, as a Catholic one can clearly say what is by canon obviously encouraged (the Holy Eucharist) and what is obviously forbidden (pacts with literal demons), even this is somewhat more involved than "religion vs. magic"...

And then we have the spiritual terrains where "religion" and "magic" become synonyms. Again, to stand in for all animistic / shamanistic systems of the world there's Shinto, an animistic system built upon the veneration and magical control of spirits, with a complex mystical machinery fit for Ghostbusters being core to its practice... There's the various currents of Hinduism, where often daily religious practice via mantras and prayers blends together with folk magic and charms for daily life... say, as a businessman might pray / recite mantras for Lakshmi, he both elevates his human striving for success to the region of religious devotion, but also invokes the deity's power as a charm to bless his striving...

Of course almost all, if not ALL spiritual systems have a concept of encouraged, tolerated and prohibited spiritual practices, but these more than often simply do not line up with our Western concept of "religion" or "magic".

 

[Aeternus]

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

This is how we distinguish between magic and religion: in religion, you seek refuge in the name of God and His attributes, and the matter does not require any rituals or complexities. In the example, the man simply recited the Fatiha, took some of his own saliva, and applied it to the bite, and he was healed. Here, the driving force is his faith in God.
Magic, however, requires complex rituals to communicate with these entities.



What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.


Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...



I agree with you within the framework of my basic idea, which is that religion came first because it came with Adam and Eve when they were sent down to Paradise, while magic arose from the interactions of their descendants later on.


Do I understand from what you've said that the difference between religion and magic is that religion is a divine matter that comes from God, while magic is a purely human creation?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2026

I disagree—they are not the same thing; rather, they are distinct. Religion is about justice, mercy, and morality, whereas magic is purely utilitarian, regardless of the rituals involved.


I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

Thank you for your explanation. I believe that the Al-Fatima was revealed by God to the Muslisms in order to heal themselves and pray for healing.

I think that Magic can also be interpreted as connecting with God. Psalms can be used in various magical evocative and invocation practices, like healing. Seeking refuge to God as you put it is also a way to say that you are petitioning to God. Furthermore, talismanic sigils are different, yes, as per their structure, but that doesn't mean that they are different from petitioning to God or the God governing the said talisman.

If I have a Talisman for healing that calls on Archangel Raphael, for example... that means I am sort of sending my request to Archangel Raphael to be healed and protected from illness, and have it been the situation to not wear the sigil, I wouldn't have been able to send my desire and intention to Archangel Raphael.

Prayer, regardless of its different forms across major religions, as I have said, is very similar to intercession and requesting help from God or another deity (depending on the practitioner's path), and letting the said Deity, through energetic channels and physical occurring, or even mental occurrences, help you in your problem. The terminology is different yet the operation is the same.

As for the rituals, unlike some ceremonial stuff which is hard to be replaced with today's modernity, still, magic doesn't require complex rituals. Focusing, visualizing, cleaning your aura and chakras, contacting deities / angels / planetary spirits by meditating on their sigils doesn't require complex things. The willpower and strong desire to connect are the key. In the Shem HaMephorash system for example, I found it very useful to use Psalm 51 to connect with the Archangel Nithaiah, which is my Moral Guardian, in order to know a lot about the occult and hidden things:

The person born under Nithhaiah will receive revelations in dreams from him. Nithhaiah gives wisdom and discovers the truth of hidden mysteries. Governs occult sciences. Astrologically, this spirit signifies spiritual wisdom.

Nithhaiah rules over the Goetic demon Glasya-Labolas.

Now take a look at Psalm 51 KJV:

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

.

So, no expensive ritual equipment, just the sigil of the Angel, the Psalm, my willingness to connect .

 

[Firetree]

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

...

What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.

...

Again with that .

1. There are magical paths that are not re;ligious that do not do this at all.

2. What good is following a religion if it does not 'interfere' with your life and destiny ?

( not that I expect a reasonable answer form you )

 

[Angelkesfarl]

It's purely because I came to magic by looking for a scientific explanation of how it works. I started with parapsychology, which is the closest thing to a mainstream study of magic. After a lot of research, I discovered that much of parapsychology is actually a subset of magic.

I agree with your perspective because, for us in the East, magic consists of complex interactions between the forces of nature and their delicate balances—such as the theory of the four humors, which was used in ancient times to explain how these forces influence thought. I believe that the seven endocrine glands are the greatest real-world drivers of human thought and mood, and psychology, which explains the theory of how a person thinks and behaves, but magic as a system—especially from the Eastern perspective—expresses for us how an idea shifts from one belief to another. A simple example: a man who hates his wife. Here, everything behind his hatred stems either from thoughts based on her actual bad deeds or from mental distortions resulting from his own delusions and false conclusions. Now, in order to intervene through magic, we must manipulate what lies within him and then transform it into a different form—one that is loving, tolerant, and friendly—so that harmony is restored. There are multiple methods for this: some choose demonic manipulation, while others choose the angelic path; while others rely on the stars and their complex relationships and how they influence the person and the relationship; still others turn to herbs, quantum physics, or any other method—such as invoking Aphrodite, for example, or praying to God to mend the relationship.... Here is my question: How can we subject others to scientific testing? The truth is, despite all of the above, I have great respect for your thinking as well as your experience. My goal is to expand the awareness of the forum members, among whom I find scholars who are no less—and in fact, more—knowledgeable than Crowley and Levi. .

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2026

I wouldn't even reduce it to being about Abrahamic vs. non-Abrahamic... even though the Torah speaks of sorcery being forbidden, and sorcerers as challenges to the faith of Israel, what we today see in Western discussion as religion vs. magic is a markedly hybrid Greco-Roman-Hebrew distinction, and from my limited understanding, this partially informs the similar distinction in Islamic culture via Hellenistic influence. And in many areas within say, Christianity, the distinction is highly unclear. Eg. the Catholic mass, with its rules and ontological content, is not much different from many related forms of theurgic magical operation, but it is canonically approved.

My point is that "magic" and "religion" are arbitrary boundaries, that only have validity on some spiritual terrains (eg. in Hellenic polytheism and Abrahamic religions)... in some cases the lines are more clear, like in Calvinism or Salafism, while in others more permeable, like in Catholicism or Sufism. Even though, say, as a Catholic one can clearly say what is by canon obviously encouraged (the Holy Eucharist) and what is obviously forbidden (pacts with literal demons), even this is somewhat more involved than "religion vs. magic"...

And then we have the spiritual terrains where "religion" and "magic" become synonyms. Again, to stand in for all animistic / shamanistic systems of the world there's Shinto, an animistic system built upon the veneration and magical control of spirits, with a complex mystical machinery fit for Ghostbusters being core to its practice... There's the various currents of Hinduism, where often daily religious practice via mantras and prayers blends together with folk magic and charms for daily life... say, as a businessman might pray / recite mantras for Lakshmi, he both elevates his human striving for success to the region of religious devotion, but also invokes the deity's power as a charm to bless his striving...

Of course almost all, if not ALL spiritual systems have a concept of encouraged, tolerated and prohibited spiritual practices, but these more than often simply do not line up with our Western concept of "religion" or "magic".

Here, I won't respond; instead, I'll ask you to explain your Western perspective on magic and religion. I don't understand your doctrinal and rational basis well enough to respond to you.

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2026

Thank you for your explanation. I believe that the Al-Fatima was revealed by God to the Muslisms in order to heal themselves and pray for healing.

I think that Magic can also be interpreted as connecting with God. Psalms can be used in various magical evocative and invocation practices, like healing. Seeking refuge to God as you put it is also a way to say that you are petitioning to God. Furthermore, talismanic sigils are different, yes, as per their structure, but that doesn't mean that they are different from petitioning to God or the God governing the said talisman.

If I have a Talisman for healing that calls on Archangel Raphael, for example... that means I am sort of sending my request to Archangel Raphael to be healed and protected from illness, and have it been the situation to not wear the sigil, I wouldn't have been able to send my desire and intention to Archangel Raphael.

Prayer, regardless of its different forms across major religions, as I have said, is very similar to intercession and requesting help from God or another deity (depending on the practitioner's path), and letting the said Deity, through energetic channels and physical occurring, or even mental occurrences, help you in your problem. The terminology is different yet the operation is the same.

As for the rituals, unlike some ceremonial stuff which is hard to be replaced with today's modernity, still, magic doesn't require complex rituals. Focusing, visualizing, cleaning your aura and chakras, contacting deities / angels / planetary spirits by meditating on their sigils doesn't require complex things. The willpower and strong desire to connect are the key. In the Shem HaMephorash system for example, I found it very useful to use Psalm 51 to connect with the Archangel Nithaiah, which is my Moral Guardian, in order to know a lot about the occult and hidden things:



Now take a look at Psalm 51 KJV:

.

So, no expensive ritual equipment, just the sigil of the Angel, the Psalm, my willingness to connect .

Did I understand you correctly that it was the analogy between the verb and the psalm that led to the choice, rather than the actual correspondences of letters and words and their hidden connections between one entity and another? We call this “the science of harmonization” rather than “subjugation,” don’t we? But in the end, it is a glaring example of the intertwining between what was revealed as a pure “Psalm” from God and what humans later associated with it—the invention of angelic and demonic names. This proves that religion is like pure water, while magic is merely a dye used to color things. In the Eastern understanding of the difference between ruqyah—which is roughly equivalent to seeking refuge—and a talisman for a being, the door to God is open to everyone at all times, and there is no need to ask an angel or any intermediary to intervene.

Again with that .

1. There are magical paths that are not re;ligious that do not do this at all.

2. What good is following a religion if it does not 'interfere' with your life and destiny ?

( not that I expect a reasonable answer form you )

You’ve made your assumption—so why don’t you explain these points to everyone?
Religion is love and a relationship between the Creator and the created, whereas magic is different—it is a relationship between one created being and another....
In the Eastern definition, religion came to perfect moral virtues and establish boundaries between people; God is responsible for rewarding the good and punishing the wicked...
It also requires you to pray to God and ask Him for blessings, to ward off evil, to help you, to provide for you, to heal you, and so on...
So what is your definition?
Finally, whether that’s your interpretation of what I said or your assumption that I won’t give a logical answer—perhaps it’s simply because you didn’t understand me! You see things from your own biased perspective, and then you come back to accuse me by projecting your own issues onto me. My dear, don’t bring your hang-ups with you when you log into the forum—we’re not in the closet of your thoughts here...

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Here is my question: How can we subject others to scientific testing?

The only major prediction I've managed to make so far is that you need the subjects to be a) of a greater number than the experimenter (the more the better) and b) aligned to the same goal, as if they were, say, supporters of the same football team.

The experimenter has the same ability as the subject, so the subject not only has to do the thing, they have to do it in spite of the presence of the experimenter. With a greater number of subjects, the experimenter's influence will decrease.

I view this as still being a matter of 'coincidence'. Everyone has to end up in the same outcome, where they all agree on whether there was success or not. So adding more subjects aligned to the task is designed to turn the experiment from an arm-wrestle into a Mexican wave

 

[Angelkesfarl]

What is the difference between magic and religion?
The difference is clear and straightforward: Magic is a private matter—it involves sciences, arts, and communication with spirits and objects, or incantations, or even breaths.
Let me first define what magic is so that I do not fall into the trap of incomplete assumptions.
In Eastern culture, we understand magic to be something supernatural that utilizes hidden forces—forces that most people are unaware of—and is directed toward seeking dominance and elevating a person above their peers by granting them powers beyond ordinary human capabilities.

It is categorized according to type and power.
1. Magic of Strong Souls: Here, the sorcerer, through a series of exercises and internal breathing techniques, attains the ability to influence things solely through his own power, without relying on any external aid.
People differ in this regard: some possess greater innate strength than others, making the path easier for them, while others must strive hard to reach that level.

2. Magic involving the use of the planets: This is a practice of the Chaldeans, who seek to draw near to the planets. As mentioned in the “Pecatrix,” this involves various methods of drawing near, such as through clothing, food, scent, and drink—as exemplified by the Orphic tradition.

3- Magic involving celestial spirits, such as magic for communicating with angels and intelligent beings; note that I am summarizing and simplifying the matter for you.

4- Magic involving earthly spirits, such as jinn and demons, which are known in the West as spirits or “the fallen”—“creatures of fire.”

5. Magic involving the use of magic squares and what emerges from them—such as inscriptions and sequences derived from the science of the properties of letters and numbers.
6. Magic involving natural compounds derived from minerals, plants, and animals, whether from the sea, the air, or the earth.

7- Alchemical magic, which, while falling under the categories mentioned above, is distinguished by its focus on the supernatural and tricks, such as moving inanimate objects, turning a rope into a living being, or transforming a jar into a person, etc. It is a well-known type of magic with its own practitioners.

The eighth is not magic per se but is attributed to it: the magic of sleight of hand.


As for religion, it is defined as worshiping God, following His commands, and avoiding what He has forbidden.
Therefore, this religion is not magic...
Religion also includes incantations and supplications, but they are in the name of God and His attributes, and the term “God” may only be applied to the One God who has no partner.
However, my complete and sincere conviction that there is only one God
does not mean that others do not worship anyone other than God or believe that there are others besides Him; that is a matter of personal choice.

But are there magical religions?
There are magical religions; the worship of the planets is a religion and is, as mentioned earlier, one of the essences of magic...

Can religion be separated from magic?

Indeed, religion is separate from magic. Although there are many religions, not all of their followers are required to be magicians or to perform magical acts… Otherwise, we wouldn’t need this forum as a place to gather in and around.

Does religion need magic?
In the truth I believe in, religion does not need magic because, quite simply, God does not need intermediaries to act; rather, He Himself created the intermediaries… so it is they who need Him to give them their power and shape them from the very beginning…

The sufficiency of religion is a just sufficiency—that is, God is just and will not allow you to ask Him to wrong others… But the paradox is that we are in the material universe, where we can create both good and evil…
So how did those on the left find magic to meet their needs? It was by God’s own command and His design for the universe. Just as He created physical laws and entrusted them to His creatures—the snake’s venom did not come from the snake’s own composition; He could have created it without venom…

but it is a divine arrangement. Consequently, just as we can create and use deadly physical weapons, we can also create non-physical weapons that are equally deadly. Indeed, human beings possess within them both the tendencies toward good and evil, as explored by all Eastern scholars in China and its neighboring regions, all the way to India—these are all powerful psychological forces within the human psyche, such as Reiki and similar practices are all non-physical forces, yet they have an effect. Their source is human; there are no angels, no demons, and no planets involved—they are purely human, intrinsic forces.
Likewise, the evil eye is the essence of human evil and the mark of a person who possesses this power to corrupt things—despite the objections of anyone in a scientific laboratory who insists, “I cannot detect it.” It doesn’t matter whether you detect it or not; what matters is whether evil will befall us or not???

This is what sparked my desire to write about the subject of magic itself. A magician can gather the talismans that aid him; that is why we find those who have reconciled one type of magic with another, adding an Arabic name to a Greek one—and this has proven beneficial. This is the greatest evidence that magic is not a religion; it is a means to an end, an art—but it is not a religion. It can be separated from religion, but one must understand its true methods in order to achieve the desired results.

Translated with DeepL.com

 

[Ohana]

Do I understand from what you've said that the difference between religion and magic is that religion is a divine matter that comes from God, while magic is a purely human creation?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2026

Took a while to reply but I guess it could be interpreted as that. I also meant the egg magick might have lead to the creation of reIigous practices atleast that my hypothesis on how reIigions formed but just because magick may have formed reIigions doesn't automatically mean that reIigion and magick cannot be separated. So I agree on the point you made that though magick can be worked aIongside reIigion doesn't mean it has to or automatically will.

I also think just because magick may have been the egg from which reIigion grew doesn't automatically mean that the entities/entity worshipped wasn't already present before human created something that does acknowledge them. That might vary for some peopIe though and they might see magick practices more as egregores that are entirely within the mind.

My own personal view is very ambivalent to reIigion as a whole like they may exist they may not exist. I prefer to be ambivalent because when I veer into any direction it personally causes me to not be grounded. I tried fully not beIieving and fully beIieving and both weren't right. Agnositcism is the only thing that really works as system for me. This just works for me though and if what reIigion is what works for you then its what works for you.

That's why my own view on reIigion and magick is very neutral if I'm going to be honest so a very neutral middle of the road metaphor.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Took a while to reply but I guess it could be interpreted as that. I also meant the egg magick might have lead to the creation of reIigous practices atleast that my hypothesis on how reIigions formed but just because magick may have formed reIigions doesn't automatically mean that reIigion and magick cannot be separated. So I agree on the point you made that though magick can be worked aIongside reIigion doesn't mean it has to or automatically will.

I also think just because magick may have been the egg from which reIigion grew doesn't automatically mean that the entities/entity worshipped wasn't already present before human created something that does acknowledge them. That might vary for some peopIe though and they might see magick practices more as egregores that are entirely within the mind.

My own personal view is very ambivalent to reIigion as a whole like they may exist they may not exist. I prefer to be ambivalent because when I veer into any direction it personally causes me to not be grounded. I tried fully not beIieving and fully beIieving and both weren't right. Agnositcism is the only thing that really works as system for me. This just works for me though and if what reIigion is what works for you then its what works for you.

That's why my own view on reIigion and magick is very neutral if I'm going to be honest so a very neutral middle of the road metaphor.

The difference between magic and religion is like the difference between fresh water and salt water.

To be honest, since you’re so neutral, I’ll tell you that religion is the belief in the existence of a God who loves you and waits for you to ascend to Him—either purified of all impurities (“all evil”) or with your sins, in which case He will have mercy on you in Paradise. It involves worshiping, respecting, and revering Him.
God does not need an intermediary—that is, God hears you anytime, anywhere, and sees you; He is all-powerful, eternal, and everlasting.

As for magic, magic is a religion of self-interest: You will find deities from various civilizations side by side in the religion of sorcery; you may find Yahweh alongside other idols, and this is evident in the process of assimilation and incarnation, such as Ishtar, Isis, and Mary—a glaring example being Isis and Hades. Sorcery is the worship of the self and is centered around it; it is a science that investigates the properties of things in order to exert influence. Some people confuse true magic with spiritual practices, simply because they lack clear, definitive boundaries between these things.

Perhaps this is because they all fall under the umbrella of the metaphysical, the occult, folklore, and mythology.

This is why you find the worship of the seven planets intertwined with the rituals of the Shimhamfarash, alongside the names of the ancient Egyptians.
Consider these headless rituals; what matters is control, the gathering of power, and perhaps appeasing the worshippers of those entities—their spirits in the afterlife. Jinn and demons also have their own forms of worship, deities, and myths, for they are rational, thinking, and sentient beings. which is why magic can be separated from religion—just as those who added the Christian Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to invoke other entities. Thus, it becomes clear that if we were to separate all religion, we would merely be separating layers of complexity; for perhaps the spaces would be empty, to be filled with a name or several names—but they all indicate the locations and presence of those entities.

 

[Firetree]

You’ve made your assumption—so why don’t you explain these points to everyone?

Why ? Because I thought they were painfully obvious .

here you go ;


1. There are magical paths that are not religious that do not do this at all.

I can throw darts at a numbered board to get my winning lotto results ... where is the 'religion' in that ? I can look at animal entrails to make a prediction ; no religion required . There a many , many MODERN magical practices that need no connection to religion at all .

2. What good is following a religion if it does not 'interfere' with your life and destiny ?

If you follow the outer form of a religion , say, go to church , say your payers ... maybe even 'give alms' in public ... but YOU never change yourself and , let's say you are some type of criminal ( or worse , a priest that commits atrocities ) and doent 'interfere ' ( that is; make you change ) with your life and actions ( and hence future'destiny' ) what good is that religion to a person a like that ? It is just a false mask .

That is what I mean ... and I thought it would have been obvious to most .

Religion is love and a relationship between the Creator and the created, whereas magic is different—it is a relationship between one created being and another....

Only in THAT context and because you are saying it is so. You keep saying magic is only this thing or that thing and then basing what you say next on the definition you just invented , you keep doing this and I keep pointing it out .

Magic and types of magic can be other than ; '' a relationship between one created being and another....''

In the Eastern definition, religion came to perfect moral virtues and establish boundaries between people; God is responsible for rewarding the good and punishing the wicked...

The 'eastern tradition' religion includes Buddhism ... dont try to appropriate or claim all eastern religions support your viewpoint as they clearly do not .

Again . you are making up your own definitions and asserting things must comply with them . Buddhism does not even support 'belief in God' .

It also requires you to pray to God and ask Him for blessings, to ward off evil, to help you, to provide for you, to heal you, and so on...

Again .... ' Buddhism' !

So what is your definition?

I already gave it ; in relation to this thread topic - religion uses the technology of magic .... but magic can be used outside the framework of religion . Numerous examples have been explained at length by me and others throughout this thread .

Finally, whether that’s your interpretation of what I said or your assumption that I won’t give a logical answer—perhaps it’s simply because you didn’t understand me!

Its more because I dont agree with you . and I say I dont and explain why and ask the questions I do as I see fault in your reasoning and definitions ... as if they are biased and you are pushing an agenda .

You see things from your own biased perspective,

I give relevant answers and in many cases citations and proper definitions . Its not MY bias that I insist magic can exist without religion .

Look up a proper English dictionary definition of the word and you will find it does not HAVE TO relate to religion .

I am the one saying it CAN but there are forms of it that dont have to .... its curious that you protest so much , insist you are right and then try to 'call foul' on me because I present an accurate viewpoint and have pointed out your bias .

and then you come back to accuse me by projecting your own issues onto me. My dear, don’t bring your hang-ups with you when you log into the forum—we’re not in the closet of your thoughts here...

I'm not projecting 'issues' onto you ...... look up the definition of magic like I said .

Listen up Mr Angel ; YOU started a thread in the form of a question . I answered the question and you have been doing all sorts of things since , because you didn't like my answer . I mean , if this is supposed to be a 'tutorial' mark it so and don't put it in the form of a question to garner opinions .

Post automatically merged: Today at 1:08 AM

..

7- Alchemical magic, which, while falling under the categories mentioned above, is distinguished by its focus on the supernatural and tricks, such as moving inanimate objects, turning a rope into a living being, or transforming a jar into a person, etc. It is a well-known type of magic with its own practitioners.

I am not going to go all though your post as a lot of it is the same and suffers the same issues as already pointed out ... but I cannot leave the above alone without comment .

That is a terrible definition of alchemy and is clearly biased . It is not distinguished by 'tricks' and the examples you mentioned ; that is more 'stage magic' or 'illusionism' .

Alchemy is defined by a clear multi- step process and a single simple definition ;

'' a medieval chemical science and

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philosophy aiming to achieve the

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of the base metals into gold, the discovery of a universal cure for disease, and the discovery of a means of indefinitely prolonging life.''

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''Alchemists attempted to purify, mature, and perfect certain materials.

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Common aims were

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, the transmutation of "

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" (e.g.,

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) into "

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" (particularly

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);

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the creation of an

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;

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and the creation of

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able to cure any disease.'' - Wikipedia .

In short , it is any process that extracts the 'spiritual essence' of a subject , stores it in another and then projects it into a third substance to transform it . Anyone that knows anything about alchemy or has practiced it , understands and knows this .

I even did it as my paid job for a while ; making alchemical agriculture products - 'earth alchemy' . It had nothing to do with what you claimed . Again you make false claims and made up definitions to try and support your viewpoint .

The clear recognized and identifiable stages of alchemy ;

The four 'philosophical' stages ;

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  , the blackening or melanosis
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  , the whitening or leucosis
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  , the yellowing or xanthosis
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  , the reddening, purpling, or iosis

and in the laboratory ( ie the actual working process ) ;

1. Calcination
2. Dissolution
3. Separation
4. Conjunction
5. Fermentation
6. Distillation
7. Coagulation

 

[Ohana]

Why ? Because I thought they were painfully obvious .

here you go ;


1. There are magical paths that are not religious that do not do this at all.


Its more because I dont agree with you .

I'm pretty sure you do agree with him. Angelkesfarl says that magicaI paths and reIigion are separate. If I'm reading and understanding correctly. He agrees with you. I just thought I would point that out because I don't see why your so heavily disagreeing with him here when it seems Iike he agrees with you as well.

Listen up Mr Angel ; YOU started a thread in the form of a question . I answered the question and you have been doing all sorts of things since , because you didn't like my answer . I mean , if this is supposed to be a 'tutorial' mark it so and don't put it in the form of a question to garner opinions .

Post automatically merged: Today at 1:08 AM

This point I also want to point out because this is how a thread works. The thread isn't on the occult q&a its in the general one under opinion. So you provided your own opinion then other people provided there own with Angelkesfarl responding to those opinions which I think he can do since this is his thread he created. Even if it wasn't replying multiple times to a thread isn't banned here so people can add new ideas to what they learned later.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

This point I also want to point out because this is how a thread works.

You’re absolutely right. I was just provoking him to bring out the best in him, and he’s consumed by rage…!

By “the East,” I mean the Middle East—not Buddhism, Taoism, or anything like that, since I don’t favor them at all.
And finally, he actually answered the question: magic is separate from religion.

Thank you for your logical answers; they truly hit the mark, even if they’re organized in a highly rational manner.

 

[Firetree]

I'm pretty sure you do agree with him. Angelkesfarl says that magicaI paths and reIigion are separate. If I'm reading and understanding correctly.

If you want to read and understand me correctly, again ;

Religion uses magical technologies but magic need not be a part of or associated with religion .

This does not preclude magic and religion as being separate at all ; it says that religion uses magical technologies , I dont see , in this case, how they are separate. But the 'technology' or 'method' can be used by itself without the framework of religion around it , so in this case they are separate . Or in other words , if you are practicing religion you are using forms of 'magical technology ' , you cant get around the issue that you are using it but it is under the 'authority' and/ or guidance of others ; magic and religion are not separate . If you practice magic and have no association with , need or belief in a religion then you are not practicing magic and religion and in this case they are separate .

He agrees with you. I just thought I would point that out because I don't see why your so heavily disagreeing with him here when it seems Iike he agrees with you as well.

There are many points in which I disagree with him .

This point I also want to point out because this is how a thread works. The thread isn't on the occult q&a its in the general one under opinion.

The title is this and the first line of the opening post is this ; '' Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?
That is why I considered it a question .

So you provided your own opinion then other people provided there own with Angelkesfarl responding to those opinions which I think he can do since this is his thread he created. Even if it wasn't replying multiple times to a thread isn't banned here so people can add new ideas to what they learned later.

Of course , but within dialogue , when someone presents an opinion the other can examine it , see it as valid, find faults in it, define definitions of words used .... agree and confirm or even disagree and argue why , or is that all 'out of fashion' now ?

I made my opinion clear ( so I thought ) in post 4 . In my post 8 I addressed , what I saw , as a form of restricted dualism in the response to what I wrote ( since I got quoted ) - 'restricted' in the sense that this 2 part reality , rejects a three part reality which was the historical and long term basic of magic ... which I explained there (and got a like from the OP ) . I also asked a question . The answer ... well ... post 16... multi quoting a range of posts and giving an answer like that to all of them , doesn't actually 'clear things up' .

Amidst that it is announced ; ''Even leftists were not spared during the heyday of democracy and the exaltation of individualism; they are always viewed as selfish and frightening people. ''

Well, I am 'leftist' and have association with others similar , they are NOT like that . So I KNOW when it is declared ''they are always viewed as selfish and frightening people. '' , it isnt just an opinion , it is a wrong opinion . Are you saying I should not 'call that out ' ?

That is just an example of the to and fro and why it is like the way it is . We are not 'saying the same things ' at all .

When discussing such opinions people USED TO look into the validity of concepts and definitions and a whole lot of other things that can make an opinion or a discussion 'valid' *.

I'll explain ; If I say ' magic is the art of harming others ' and then go on to build an argument on that (or any other 'slanted' definition ' ) and you practice a form of magic that isnt like that at all , would your response ( or at least thought ) be ' that isnt accurate ' ? And if one says that , they should then be able to show why their opinion is valid , by definition , terms , logic, reason , theorems or valid ideas or history of ( in this case magic and religion ) and maintain a 'proper argument ' * '

* look up ' logical fallacies and bad-faith rhetorical 'devices' .

Anyway , enough of all that , maybe what I am saying is clear now , if it isn't, there ain't much point going on about it .

Post automatically merged: Today at 6:19 AM

You’re absolutely right. I was just provoking him to bring out the best in him, and he’s consumed by rage…!

.... 'rage ' ... you're funny .

By “the East,” I mean the Middle East—not Buddhism, Taoism, or anything like that, since I don’t favor them at all.

Well, you see ! Now that is a LOT clearer . Its going to be pretty hard for me to understand you if the terms you use are 'modified by your favoring' !

What about Yazidism , Baha'i ? They are 'middle -eastern '. I can assume .... then it would 'Abrahamic Religions ( minus Baha'i ) ... but then I am practically guessing , that's why I go on definitions .

And finally, he actually answered the question: magic is separate from religion.

Nope

( That 'tactic' is called 'putting words in his mouth ' )


- for MY words , see post above .