[Opinion] Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?

[Firetree]

Using your own style and logic, you’ve also generalized your point of view and considered what you believe—or think is the truth—to be the one and only truth.

You keep saying this to people yet cant seem to see this is exactly what YOU are doing . You declare magic is something - one definition if it - eg 'its something we use to harm others ' and then build your argument on that . When its pointed out that that is WRONG and clearly an incorrect statement , you then point the finger and say 'thats just your viewpoint ' .

You cant seem to realize , or identify the difference between an opinion and an opinion that can be demonstrated as right or wrong . Its all through your posts .

You’ve fallen into the very trap you came to fight, so I believe this, too, is zero-sum thinking based on nothing. Religion is the constant, whereas philosophies and personal viewpoints are what some people follow—not everyone.

What does 'religion is the constant' mean ?

On a planet with billions of people, worship, while others say that religion is a human invention.

What does this sentence mean ? It doesnt make sense . Sometimes I think , if you are using a translator , it isnt working very well or making what you perhaps want to say , clear in English

Could it be that the abundance of artificial and heretical religions is what has confused so many people about the true nature of God and the true nature of religion? Isn’t that a perspective worth considering?

Isn't it worth considering that YOU here are deciding which of the religions are valid ? I am assuming you have chosen your own as the valid one ; Islam , and you only accept Judaism and Christianity as precursors in the ytraditions that Mohamed accepted as valid previous religions .

What are these supposed 'artificial and heretical' religions ? ( not that I expect an answer as when a difficult question is asked , you just ignore it and go on the same )

Could it be that what you consider an artificial or heretical religion is actually '' what YOU believe—or think is the truth—to be the one and only truth. '' or is this just 'opinion' ?

Here’s another fact: religion explains everything from the perspective of divine revelation and has no need for philosophies; rather, philosophies are the result of human attempts to understand religion—not the other way around.

I hope that these views and philosophies are presented not to clash, but to complement one another and seek the truth.

And for the record, the truth is the truth—it has only one face—and it must erase every lie. Isn’t that right?

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 1:38 AM

So, based on my personal interpretation of what you’re saying, do you understand that religion—whatever form it takes—is the ritual foundation from which magic emerged, and that magic is a byproduct of religion and one of its remnants?

Not so , because by your own definition you preclude other religions as 'real or proper' religions and only see the Abrahamic stream as valid ( I have to assume this as You never answered my questions about it ) , so if there was no real religion before Abraham then all the magic that people did before then was not connected to religion at all so therefore - NO - magic was not the byproduct of religion .

You totally tripped yourself up with your own arguments and prejudices there !

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Yes, magic can be separated from religion.
Magic can be a product of religion. Magic does not have to be a product of religion or a faith.
Magic, depending on the practice, can be a veneer for a faith. True magic requires nothing but the will of the practitioner.

What you say is indeed true: magic can be separated from religion, for magic is not part of religion; rather, it stems from the sorcerer’s will, knowledge, and capabilities. Although religion has recognized magic and distinguished it, sorcerers have also drawn upon religious knowledge. For example, sorcerers drew upon the three verses in the Book of Exodus, from which they extracted the secret of the 72 angels and also the demons. ..
They also learned the names of the angels of the zodiac and interacted with them, and they learned the names of the true God in the Torah and used them as the most powerful names feared by all worlds.

However, in other religions, there were different methods and paths; thus, pagan religions ultimately resort to magic to prove their existence as religions, whereas the true religion does not need magic to prove its existence.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 4:48 AM

You totally tripped yourself up with your own arguments and prejudices there !

Can you step outside my perspective and answer clearly: Can magic be separated from religion, or are the two inseparable?

For once, talk about yourself, not me.

 

[Kepler]

Using your own style and logic, you’ve also generalized your point of view and considered what you believe—or think is the truth—to be the one and only truth. You’ve fallen into the very trap you came to fight, so I believe this, too, is zero-sum thinking based on nothing.

That's a misunderstanding. Perhaps a clarification that Fallibilism is an essential part of magickal research into the occult. It's been mentioned in other posts so often that sometimes it gets left out across threads due to repetition making it seem implied. Fallibilism is the ultimate antidote to dogma and zero sum. It's not about winning, it's about discovering a better way to express truth.
Meaning there isn't zero sum thinking involved. Magical discoveries in the occult benefit all by developing a better explanation of reality that is available to all. It isn't used to leverage an authoritarian dogmatic advantage. It provides an evolutionary advantage to those who adopt it.
However, it is a threat to dogmatic religious institutions since it undermines their control which may make it appear zero sum, but that is just a misplaced reaction to being offered freedom from being enslaved to the comfort of dogma.

Religion is the constant, whereas philosophies and personal viewpoints are what some people follow—not everyone. On a planet with billions of people, worship, while others say that religion is a human invention. Could it be that the abundance of artificial and heretical religions is what has confused so many people about the true nature of God and the true nature of religion? Isn’t that a perspective worth considering?

There isnt a religion that's constant. Anthropology has shown that. New religions appear, shift and change over time with the groups practicing it. It's a cultural product.

For a long time most people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Popular belief doesn't change the nature of reality, but it does influence how people interact with it.

That's where religious philosophers who operate within the limits of a religion try to make things fit into it. Not that there aren't philosophers that operate outside religious dogma. Just like there's low magick, as I defined in my first post in this thread, that can operate under a religious model using its formulas or high magick that can operate outside them to operate and explore the cosmological occult.

 

[Firetree]

Can you step outside my perspective and answer clearly: Can magic be separated from religion, or are the two inseparable?

For once, talk about yourself, not me.

Why cant you understand that I have answered this question, several times now ? very clearly and distinctly !

and why do you keep ignoring every other question or point of challenge I made to your ideas and theories and keep retutning to this same request for a statement from me when I keep making it .

I have no choice then but to assume you are trolling .

 

[levi777]

Magic is like a prism with many facets. For example, the Voodoo (or hoodoo) religion is both a religion and a form of magic. At other times, however, magic is simply an art. It also involves an element of religious belief, since faith is essential for someone to practice magic. Also has the element of tradition verbal and written, dogma or standard laws and principles are also common with religion. Magic includes ceremonies to a supreme being which is worshiped and that sometimes is a demon or an angel or God. So i believe that magic mostly can be viewed and as a religion!

 

[Angelkesfarl]

freedom from being enslaved to the comfort of dogma.

that can operate under a religious model using its formulas or high magick that can operate outside them to operate and explore the cosmological occult.

Magic is like a prism with many facets. For example, the Voodoo (or hoodoo) religion is both a religion and a form of magic. At other times, however, magic is simply an art. It also involves an element of religious belief, since faith is essential for someone to practice magic. Also has the element of tradition verbal and written, dogma or standard laws and principles are also common with religion. Magic includes ceremonies to a supreme being which is worshiped and that sometimes is a demon or an angel or God. So i believe that magic mostly can be viewed and as a religion!

Indeed, your words reflect a philosophical perspective that may be helpful to you, since you view things from a Western perspective; however, with all due respect and gratitude for your presentation of your theory, we cannot overlook the Eastern perspective on magic and religion and the distinction between them.
The truth is that, for us, religion came first, because it was revealed when Adam and Eve descended to Earth. They were created in Heaven and came down to Earth already knowing the one true God. However, evil also descended with them in the form of the devil, “Iblis,” who brought with him all the knowledge he had acquired on his earlier journey to heaven, including his knowledge of the secrets of magic.

The confusion arises because sorcerers initially imitated religious practitioners until, by connecting with the Great Satan, they were able to interfere with and manipulate human consciousness. They began by mimicking religious rituals—for example, when someone is afflicted by the evil eye, a mass is held and verses from the Book of God are recited to purify them from the evil eye. Likewise, Satan possessed his own power, which he used to create demonic possession and affliction. He drew groups of humans to him and gave them his children and servants to assist them in performing supernatural feats, thereby deceiving humanity into believing in the existence of another god or other groups of deities.
This is the Eastern perspective, for sorcery and sorcerers practiced what is known in the East as “incantations”—such as writing with saffron, dissolving it in water, purifying the body, and expelling demons—because they are bound by obedience to their father and the greatest tyrant. Wizards also used religious texts, prayers, and incantations to expel demons or to counteract each other’s spells in their struggles for power or fame.


The matter is extremely complex and intertwined, but what you may view as mere theories are, in fact, deeply rooted beliefs and convictions ingrained in the collective consciousness of the Middle East. And I repeat: all those who have influenced Western thought are, in fact, disciples of the East.

Translated with DeepL

 

[levi777]

Indeed, your words reflect a philosophical perspective that may be helpful to you, since you view things from a Western perspective; however, with all due respect and gratitude for your presentation of your theory, we cannot overlook the Eastern perspective on magic and religion and the distinction between them.
The truth is that, for us, religion came first, because it was revealed when Adam and Eve descended to Earth. They were created in Heaven and came down to Earth already knowing the one true God. However, evil also descended with them in the form of the devil, “Iblis,” who brought with him all the knowledge he had acquired on his earlier journey to heaven, including his knowledge of the secrets of magic.

The confusion arises because sorcerers initially imitated religious practitioners until, by connecting with the Great Satan, they were able to interfere with and manipulate human consciousness. They began by mimicking religious rituals—for example, when someone is afflicted by the evil eye, a mass is held and verses from the Book of God are recited to purify them from the evil eye. Likewise, Satan possessed his own power, which he used to create demonic possession and affliction. He drew groups of humans to him and gave them his children and servants to assist them in performing supernatural feats, thereby deceiving humanity into believing in the existence of another god or other groups of deities.
This is the Eastern perspective, for sorcery and sorcerers practiced what is known in the East as “incantations”—such as writing with saffron, dissolving it in water, purifying the body, and expelling demons—because they are bound by obedience to their father and the greatest tyrant. Wizards also used religious texts, prayers, and incantations to expel demons or to counteract each other’s spells in their struggles for power or fame.


The matter is extremely complex and intertwined, but what you may view as mere theories are, in fact, deeply rooted beliefs and convictions ingrained in the collective consciousness of the Middle East. And I repeat: all those who have influenced Western thought are, in fact, disciples of the East.

Translated with DeepL

Thats right wise teacher Angelkesfarl, i agree to all you said. From the historic perspective of human civilizations (if i am catching correctly your words) magic was always part of ritual and religions, but actually the pure magic as the manipulation of the powers and laws of the nature and universe magic is not actually a religion. I gave some basic points from the western perspective on what is religion on theory and the key words are supreme being (God), faith, dogma, tradition. On the other hand i know well that the Eastern perspective of magic is not only equal but im sure that is some miles ahead of western and more ancient! I say this because i know that Khaldean magic is so ancient, Colchis magic is also well known and ancient, and of course Egyptian, Babylonian and all middle east as you have said! There in the east are the roots of magical traditions and teachings most of which was from mouth to mouth and very few writtings were saved. Here i have to give the excemption of the master sorcerers of lost Atlantean civilization as of course Theosophy teaches.
Thanks very much for your knowledge, i read carefully your teachings and your posts and i keep learning.
YG sorry if there are any mistakes in my english, greek is my mothers language, but i try to do the best and with my english.

 

[Ben Gruagach]

There are definitely ways of practicing magick that don't have to involve working with spirits or praying to divine figures. There are many folk magick practices, including modern iterations of them, such as using crystals, herbs, sigils, and similar things that don't necessarily involve working with spirits or deities.

Frater U.D.'s helpful article "Models of Magic" (which you can read online for free at places such as sacred-texts dot com) summarizes some of the popular paradigms for explaining and working with magick, and only the "spirit model" requires a belief in the literal existence of spirits or deities at all.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

hanks very much for your knowledge, i read carefully your teachings and your posts and i keep learning.
YG sorry if there are any mistakes in my english, greek is my mothers language, but i try to do the best and with my english.

No need to apologize—there are no excuses among friends, man.
And indeed, magic is the result of a human and spiritual interaction with the other world—and by “the other world,” I don’t mean the realm of the dead, for the dead have no power in reality. Rather, it involves dealing with the world of fire—the “jinn,” the demons—or the world of the angels.
Magic based on religion stems from religious faith. You’ll find that the Hebrew Jews perfected Jewish magic and used angels and the names of God in their spells.
The Christians came after them and added belief in the Christian Trinity, altering the system of magic by incorporating the names and attributes of Christ, and magic worked just as effectively for them… even though, for the Hebrews, this is heresy, and for Muslim Arabs, it is also blasphemy—since Christ, in their view, is neither God nor the Son of God?
So how was this possible?
Because magic has its adherents from the other world—that is, those who share your faith will obey you.
But indeed, there is Babylonian magic, and I believe that it and ancient Egyptian magic are the most powerful and profound forms of magic on both the human and demonic levels; only the magic derived from Harut and Marut—the angels of magic who control it by the Creator’s permission—surpasses them.
What is remarkable is that no resolve, oath, invocation, or anything else is mentioned regarding these two angels, as if everyone had sworn to conceal the knowledge they taught to humanity. And by the way, they taught the most powerful forms of magic of all time, without any dispute.


Frater U.D.'s helpful article "Models of Magic" (which you can read online for free at places such as sacred-texts dot com) summarizes some of the popular paradigms for explaining and working with magick, and only the "spirit model" requires a belief in the literal existence of spirits or deities at all.
But where are their teachings?

They remain, though hidden in the minds and hearts of scholars.

There is also personal magic—incantations and rhymed verses—which is a purely human endeavor.

It requires neither a spirit nor anything else, only the practitioner’s focused intention on specific occasions, along with rhymed and balanced words. It mobilizes the human psyche and focuses its energy; if we consider the evil eye, for example, it is a purely human, destructive force that requires no connections, objects, or incantations—it suffices to mobilize the psyche to strike and corrupt, without needing any external catalyst or aid.

That is why there is a form of magic that belongs neither to Judaism nor Christianity and requires no faith whatsoever—otherwise, how could Hekate be combined with Persephone in a single spell?



Or even—you can compose a scroll or an oath, invoking spirits, helpers, and names of power, simply if you know the balance of magic and how to construct incantations, oaths, rebukes, and bindings.

 

[Kepler]

Indeed, your words reflect a philosophical perspective that may be helpful to you, since you view things from a Western perspective; however, with all due respect and gratitude for your presentation of your theory, we cannot overlook the Eastern perspective on magic and religion and the distinction between them.
The truth is that, for us, religion came first, because it was revealed when Adam and Eve descended to Earth. They were created in Heaven and came down to Earth already knowing the one true God. However, evil also descended with them in the form of the devil, “Iblis,” who brought with him all the knowledge he had acquired on his earlier journey to heaven, including his knowledge of the secrets of magic.

The development of the myth of Adam and Eve from the philosophical Platonic Realm of Ideal Forms was almost the example I opened my posts in this thread with before pivoting to Serapis. It's good to see that the myth was instead referred to organically by your side of the conversation and can be addressed.

In that religious myth that's built upon the philosophy of ideal forms, the words of all things that the archetypal Adam was taught by God also shows the frameworks of the philosophical source of ideal forms underlying the religious myth.

There's some important philosophical developments in the Christian and Islamic that include Neoplatonic ideas in their myth, further distancing them from Judaism(which were included in Kabbalah later), but investigation of the parallels further shows how all religions are created by people upon philosophic understanding of spiritual experiences from magickal investigations. That religious myth, all religious myth comes after.

The matter is extremely complex and intertwined, but what you may view as mere theories are, in fact, deeply rooted beliefs and convictions ingrained in the collective consciousness of the Middle East. And I repeat: all those who have influenced Western thought are, in fact, disciples of the East.

It's good to point out that it's not always philosophy that is exclusively influencing religious development, if a religious philosopher is able to go beyond the religious dogma through their magickally induced spiritual experiences they can positively contribute to the underlying structure religion is constructed upon. Ibn Arabi is a perfect example of this in how his experiences elevated Neoplatonic thought.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

It's good to point out that it's not always philosophy that is exclusively influencing religious development, if a religious philosopher is able to go beyond the religious dogma through their magickally induced spiritual experiences they can positively contribute to the underlying structure religion is constructed upon. Ibn Arabi is a perfect example of this in how his experiences elevated Neoplatonic thought.

You’ve indeed kicked things off with your perspective, which I welcome because there is common ground between us—I believe it will serve as a pathway to further points of convergence.
But I want to say that Ibn al-Arabi’s influence on—and influence by—Platonic thought stemmed from his immersion in spirituality and the theories of reincarnation and union. Although he spoke of these concepts with an aesthetic and spiritual fervor that carried him to different worlds, he soared through spiritual philosophy drawn from Indian teachings and Platonic intellectual philosophies. But there’s another side to it, man, and that’s magic.
Take al-Suhrawardi, for example: in one of his famous stories, a man came to him complaining of poverty, so he took a strand of palm fiber and transformed it into a goat. The man took it to the market and sold it there. When he had sold it, he returned to the Sufi master al-Suhrawardi, and it reverted to its original form—a mere strand of fiber. When the man’s group tracked him down and reached al-Suhrawardi, they demanded the money, and he took the man’s hand , and he shook his arm, causing it to come out into the man’s hand. He said to him, “Take it; I have no need for it.” The man who had bought the goat was terrified and fled, throwing the arm to the ground. The man picked it up and returned it to its place, and it reverted to normal…
He was accused of heresy and killed…

The same fate befell Ibn Arabi and many others; the accusation stemmed from the “Hudhud Exercise” and the names of the angels of the hidden stairway.
These were among the most strictly forbidden practices, akin to black magic that alters reality; they were the remnants of the magic practiced by the sorcerers of the Pharaonic court, who were famous for changing and subverting reality through “alchemy” and “sim-ya”—terms closely related to the word “Simiforas.” This is what is called “high magic” in Western thought—the ability to transform objects, fly through the air, walk on water, and eat fire… and so on—all of which are established magical phenomena…




However, there are accounts from approximately 825 years later in India of people from the class of the “poor in magic” who performed exactly the same wonders. From this, we conclude that philosophy—whatever it may be—is not the source of the act, but rather the mastery and knowledge of the magical secret that allowed the philosopher to use it, making him one of the most famous scholars and influential figures of his time, while a poor Indian performs performs wonders in the marketplace to earn a little money from onlookers...?

Translated with DeepL

 

[Kepler]

He was accused of heresy and killed…

The same fate befell Ibn Arabi and many others; the accusation stemmed from the “Hudhud Exercise” and the names of the angels of the hidden stairway.
These were among the most strictly forbidden practices, akin to black magic that alters reality; they were the remnants of the magic practiced by the sorcerers of the Pharaonic court, who were famous for changing and subverting reality through “alchemy” and “sim-ya”—terms closely related to the word “Simiforas.” This is what is called “high magic” in Western thought—the ability to transform objects, fly through the air, walk on water, and eat fire… and so on—all of which are established magical phenomena…




However, there are accounts from approximately 825 years later in India of people from the class of the “poor in magic” who performed exactly the same wonders. From this, we conclude that philosophy—whatever it may be—is not the source of the act, but rather the mastery and knowledge of the magical secret that allowed the philosopher to use it, making him one of the most famous scholars and influential figures of his time, while a poor Indian performs performs wonders in the marketplace to earn a little money from onlookers...?

Translated with DeepL

Historically there's many famous charges of heresy which have happened when religious dogma is challenged. Hus, Galileo, Bruno, and Joan of Arc as examples causing authorities to send out their enforcers. Often witchcraft is dropped to favour specific doctrinal transgression, like Joan wearing men's clothes. Witchcraft is difficult to objectively prove with evidence. Clothing appears just silly to anyone outside dogmas, as that has no inherent philosophical or secular meaning, but taken very seriously by those serving a fabricated theological dogma if threatening to their imposed authority over civil order.

High magick is traditionally associated with spiritual endeavours, such as union with the divine, but the line is blurred by definitions around class considerations and thaumaturgy. A reason why an effort was made to define it in my posts as above and before religious constructs to keep the definition from straying too far into hair splitting miraculous feats and derailing the topic. Folk magic that isn't reliant on developed philosophy and constructed theological frameworks is as close to early animism as can be gotten in the sense of being relational epistemology. Which was the central point where magick was defined as appearing first and separate from religion, upon which coherent philosophy and metaphysics can be developed and from there religions constructed as civil social engineering to organize behavior, enforce loyalty, and qualify its social order. Religion maintaining a stability until factors like cosmological understanding alters the philosophical and overthrows old religious engineering.