is the modern occult community getting too soft?

[FireBorn]

What a strange statement. As useful as the others you have made in other threads. I'm not inclined to accept your shallow understanding handicapped by silly blinkers that direct personal experience is somehow irrelevant, and that magic is somehow not magic. Maybe I should put you in a bucket.

I see...

Well since you didn't answer my argument and went straight to insults, I guess you win lol. Good job. Tell me about the bucket I get to be in? Is it cool?

 

[Ombriel]

Well, sovereignty has left the building. We arent talking about dogma and hate here. Magick doesnt do anything. People do. People with beliefs that harden into dogma are the problem, not magick, not magickal groups. To put all that into one bucket for an agenda is lazy.

this is exactly the clarity i was hoping to find when i posted this thread. sovereignty has nothing to do with how much damage you can cause in the physical world or how many political enemies you can make. it is entirely about whether you own your own mind or whether your dogma owns you.

putting terrorism and aeonic warfare into the same bucket as someone trying to hold down a job while practicing banishing is lazy, just like you said. true hardness is not about being edgy or violent. it is about having the internal battery to face a completely mundane, boring, and difficult tuesday without collapsing into the astral plane for comfort. thank you for bringing the focus back to reality.

Post automatically merged: Today at 9:17 AM

I remember, when the O9A was accused of being too soft and Chloe Ortega chastised for it not being like some imaginary fiction produced by Stephen Leather. Shortly thereafter, Jall (Hoy) took command with DarkLogos9 (Sutter) and started promoting all manner of rape, CSAM and violence. Today, that dregful morass has splintered from Tempel ov Blood into 764 which has children torturing children. On the flipside, the Temple of THEM, my group, maintained a restrained composed rational position for almost 30 years, until recently when it declared war on the Australian Government, infiltrated its indigenous political party, and has called for the death of those politicians who aided and are aiding Zion. Zion are the reigning masters of magic and the Israeli's penchant for amoral holocausts are as hard as they come - completely immured from empathy and entirely driven by ideological capture. Is that the kind of hardness you want? That's where absolute power always leads: magical or political.

From our long-term point of view, there is nothing wrong with softness, not everyone has what it takes to risk their life or put it on the line for those they've never met purely because of a difference of moral compass or aeonic visions of what is necessary to guide Mankind and stop it sinking into savage ignorance. Magic does have levels - where do you want to wade in? Not everyone is inclined to head toward deep waters and dangerous waters like dealing with secret societies, intelligence agencies, or psychopathic killers. But when the veil lifts and you see what lies beneath you are thrust into such a world whether you like it or not. But coupled with the historical truism of realization that those who engage in such arts of death such as the Israeli's have no limits and it is only a matter of time before we and you are the next Gaza - its necessary, critical that someone does something whether they stand to succeed or not. The future is certain if nothing is done to change the course. Now - Who can stop them? Who will try? Even to try is to sign your death warrant. We have signed ours long ago.

The occult is a plural field - it has room for many practitioners, including escapism, healing trauma, harmless delusion or in their own way making the world a warmer, better place, even if you don't appreciate their attitude, approach or non-seriousness, it is still valuable to the magical collective that it remains plural and non-monolithic - because concentration and seriousness for an entire collective only ends in totalitarianism, elitism, fascism or worse. The Temple of THEM arose as a thing precisely because the ONA wanted to restrict all forms of Satanism to its own and create a monolithic definition. We rebelled against that and came together from many walks to form a pluralised expression of satanism through our many different viewpoints and belief systems. Magic can and does raze entire countries to enact ancient prophecies or political or economic aims which are their own species of magic. We've infiltrated political parties and the RPG community, challenge the FBI and openly threaten our politicians - we're designated as terrorists and extremists, though neither of those terms have a legal definition, it's a fun catch-all that is its own magic. We didn't set out to be such- those are labels they apply to us.

You should be grateful for those who employ magic for personal entertainment. From our perspective, if you're not willing to do what it takes to use magic in a war for the aeon and kill or self-sacrifice yourself to stop the holocaust then you are not hard enough for us either. So, I think the occult, will always be on a spectrum and you should be careful what you ask for. Because the Devil is never far away. Moderation is the best way.

you are conflating physical violence and political extremism with internal energetic discipline. they are not the same thing, and equating them is a massive strawman.

when i ask if the community has lost its teeth, i am not asking for more domestic terrorism or aeonic death cults. i am talking about the psychological resilience of the individual practitioner. there is a massive difference between a pluralistic field that allows for harmless escapism, and a field where the standard for success is simply feeling good while your actual life falls apart.

i am perfectly fine with people using magic for personal entertainment. my critique is aimed at the ones who demand the respect of a warrior while living the lifestyle of a victim. you do not need to infiltrate a government or declare war to prove you are not soft. you just need to be able to stand in a crowded room without leaking your own power. that is the only hardness i care about.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

i am perfectly fine with people using magic for personal entertainment. my critique is aimed at the ones who demand the respect of a warrior while living the lifestyle of a victim. you do not need to infiltrate a government or declare war to prove you are not soft. you just need to be able to stand in a crowded room without leaking your own power. that is the only hardness i care about.

I think it was conflating the 'occult community' with the biased sample of wimps that was the problem.

 

[ahathoor]

OMG, not enough aeonic death cults out there, we're really losing our teeth! xP

Anyway, i do get what @Rynnshng was saying. There's wisdom to appreciating childish games and weightless vices, for they show us the center holds, and the pillars are still bearing the load. Harmless nonsense is the laughter of Kia. And we can be annoyed by something and yet still conceptually accept as an unambiguous good that we get to be anooyed by it.

i think, @Ombriel, if the critics of your post have got one important thing right, is that these small vices are often part and parcel with self-discovery and self-assertion, and ideally one grows out of them. Some remain stuck in them and end up in daytime talk shows or selling crystals on Etsy, but honestly, why would that bother me any more than, say, people overusing Crowley's "magick" spelling?

ps. @Rynnshng, remember that there's always more than one way to fight. In magic especially.

 

[akenu]

OMG, not enough aeonic death cults out there, we're really losing our teeth! xP

Anyway, i do get what @Rynnshng was saying. There's wisdom to appreciating childish games and weightless vices, for they show us the center holds, and the pillars are still bearing the load. Harmless nonsense is the laughter of Kia. And we can be annoyed by something and yet still conceptually accept as an unambiguous good that we get to be anooyed by it.

i think, @Ombriel, if the critics of your post have got one important thing right, is that these small vices are often part and parcel with self-discovery and self-assertion, and ideally one grows out of them. Some remain stuck in them and end up in daytime talk shows or selling crystals on Etsy, but honestly, why would that bother me any more than, say, people overusing Crowley's "magick" spelling?

ps. @Rynnshng, remember that there's always more than one way to fight. In magic especially.

Well, in my defense, "Magick" is easier to Google

 

[Kepler]

I think it was conflating the 'occult community' with the biased sample of wimps that was the problem.

We're in an active diverse occult community and there isn't an example around here.
But, maybe we're missing it and OP can show a few real examples from the forum that'll support their position, or that'll at least clarify to see what it really is if they're misrepresenting.
Since they claim it's common in the occult community that shouldn't be a problem.

isn’t weak behaviour you criticize people that fighting against depression or “negative vibes” and to the point of come here for validation seeking and ego boosting?

It is.

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:50 PM

the critics of your post have got one important thing right, is that these small vices are often part and parcel with self-discovery and self-assertion, and ideally one grows out of them.

As one of the critics I can confirm that's part of my reasoning, but it goes further to be more encompassing and of personal benefit to guide on the path.
Since it appears you're familiar with Crowley, an old chestnut from Liber Librae to elaborate, as I would say the same worded differently but this quote readers might've already contemplated:
Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldest have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?

Which leads to self-discovering and balance from answering the question, if one is experiencing this.

 

[Zelator2148]

I went through a similar disaffection as the early-70s New Age zeitgeist unraveled into the entrepreneurial opportunism of the late-70s when the "money-men" found their opening. I started calling the purported "Age of Aquarius" the "Piscean Pipe-Dream" and the "False Dawn." These days I see most of the vulnerability in the social-media arena that epitomizes the "attention economy" someone else mentioned. It's superficiality is about as far as one can get from the sense of gravity I've always found in occult studies and practice. But I don't go looking for alignment there anyway (which is the main reason I ditched Facebook as a lost cause) and my public posture as reflected in my divination blog has been decidedly curmudgeonly. It's like the old SNL bit where the waitress takes an order of decaf coffee from a customer and shouts to the counterman "Joe, another cup of 'why bother!'"

 

[ahathoor]

@Kepler I hold no disagreement here; I do my best not to judge, yet at the end of the day I too am subject to my own vices.

And telling a commune of lazy hippies to put down the bloody weed, stop whinig about "Babylon," and grab the pickaxes because the barranco has started to stink and the latrine won't dig itself is not necessarily a judgement in the same sense.

The fragile witchling's hypersensitivity is at its core not merely self-harming, but also abusive in the same way as the alcoholist mage's severe downcast gaze.

 

[Kepler]

The fragile witchling's hypersensitivity is at its core not merely self-harming,

It isn't self-harming at its core. Increased sensitivity from developed awareness is a result of the work.

Which may explain the apparent lack of increased sensitivity due to the absence any self-developmental work from or of those supporting OP.

That claim of self-harming is armchair occultism idealizing a world from a position of knowing nothing from experience. Then trying to infantilize and victimize from an armchair with speculations waved as facts of those who are doing the work.

but also abusive in the same way as the alcoholist mage's severe downcast gaze.

If you're letting yourselves be abused by these phantasms or taking their existence that way that's on you for not removing yourself.

 

[ahathoor]

omg @Kepler, someone dares disagree with you, and you begin flinging the very judgement and condescension you were preaching against...

seriously, what exactly is your problem?

sensitivity is not the same as fragility; the former is a subjective experience, that one learns to handle (or not), the latter is a weaponization of weakness to control others... and bullying isn't determined by whether others "let themselves be bullied" - but by the intention to control and subjugate, regardless of its success

 

[akenu]

I love that people who hate on OP are the same people who cringe when they hear about "WitchTok"

 

[Kepler]

omg @Kepler, someone dares disagree with you, and you begin flinging the very judgement and condescension you were preaching against...

seriously, what exactly is your problem?

sensitivity is not the same as fragility; the former is a subjective experience, that one learns to handle (or not), the latter is a weaponization of weakness to control others... and bullying isn't determined by whether others "let themselves be bullied" - but by the intention to control and subjugate, regardless of its success

By the reaction it seems the armchair was an accurate assessment.

Sensitive and fragile are partial synonyms. And sensitivity of the senses, even inner ones for the occultist, is an objective experience not subjective, the latter is a condition of distress from the subjective interpretation.

I love that people who hate on OP are the same people who cringe when they hear about "WitchTok"

I've never mentioned witchtok, except now to say I've never mentioned witchtok.

But a good example of the rational foundation OP supporters have throwing out whatever accusations to see what sticks so they don't have to think about the flaws in their position.

 

[Phillian]

This is my perspective on the topic. I do not think people are becoming "soft"; in truth, I think the world around as become too dull and grim for one to see life in a "harsh" light, which is also allied with the reemergence of a neo-pagan era. Overall, people are searching for a lighter environment, returning to old practices and revamping them to fit the necessities our time demands. I believe it is a pursuit of something which feels lost: the nostalgia of better days, and yes, it is possible to seek tranquility and still have life in shambles. I do not believe this duality is a sign of bad craft or going "soft"; if anything, I believe it is quite the opposite: the sign of an awakening or rebirth...

Think about it: you are entering into the craft and finding your identity and path; you will inevitably desire the best outcome, because you need that, but will you produce results right away or know which path to follow? No, you will need time, and with time comes wisdom, insight, and warding your energy and craft, so, in sum up, I believe this "softness" you are noticing is just the dawn of a future generation of practitioners of the craft, although, call it a hunch, could it be the reason you feel discomfort is because it reminds you of your own journey, or is this a reminder that you need to revise your base? Sometimes discomfort is a manifestation of the shadow work that needs to be done to unlock a new path or a better connection with our essence.

 

[akenu]

By the reaction it seems the armchair was an accurate assessment.

Sensitive and fragile are partial synonyms. And sensitivity of the senses, even inner ones for the occultist, is an objective experience not subjective, the latter is a condition of distress from the subjective interpretation.


I've never mentioned witchtok, except now to say I've never mentioned witchtok.

But a good example of the rational foundation OP supporters have throwing out whatever accusations to see what sticks so they don't have to think about the flaws in their position.

Right, but would you agree that you would cringe at WitchToks and at the same time WitchToks are pretty much what OP was talking about and you chose to die on a weird hill?

 

[Toz_]

Let’s add more fuel to the fire (I’m being polemical on purpose, and I’ll flag where I’m speculating vs. where I have evidence).

Look at Dion Fortune’s Psychic Self-Defence, then look at Crowley. His documented behavior is damning on its own terms, independent of any theory about his psychology: he never overcame his own drug addiction, he introduced heroin to his followers, he extracted money from them, and he ran humiliation rituals and sexual relationships with people who were under his spiritual authority. Regardless of the “teachings” attached to it, this is behavior we’d call abusive by any standard today.

Now, the speculative part: it’s tempting to read Thelema as Crowley working out his own repression and sexuality as a Victorian-era gay man, and self-declaring himself “prophet” as an outlet for that and for his ego. That’s a plausible psychological reading but I want to be clear it’s a reading, not proof of anything about Thelema’s validity. Plenty of people with troubled origins have produced ideas or systems that outlived and outgrew their creator’s dysfunction. So this point cuts against Crowley the man, not necessarily against Thelema the system.

And the most cynical version of this argument, which I’ll own as cynical rather than demonstrated: maybe occult communities have always attracted people in psychological distress, and what looks like a community-specific problem is really just what happens whenever vulnerable people gather around a charismatic authority figure. I don’t have evidence that people were “more unstable” in the past that’s not a claim I can actually support but I’d argue the dynamic (charisma + authority + vulnerable followers) is old and recurring, with or without a claim about historical psychology.

 

[akenu]

Let’s add more fuel to the fire (I’m being polemical on purpose, and I’ll flag where I’m speculating vs. where I have evidence).

Look at Dion Fortune’s Psychic Self-Defence, then look at Crowley. His documented behavior is damning on its own terms, independent of any theory about his psychology: he never overcame his own drug addiction, he introduced heroin to his followers, he extracted money from them, and he ran humiliation rituals and sexual relationships with people who were under his spiritual authority. Regardless of the “teachings” attached to it, this is behavior we’d call abusive by any standard today.

Now, the speculative part: it’s tempting to read Thelema as Crowley working out his own repression and sexuality as a Victorian-era gay man, and self-declaring himself “prophet” as an outlet for that and for his ego. That’s a plausible psychological reading but I want to be clear it’s a reading, not proof of anything about Thelema’s validity. Plenty of people with troubled origins have produced ideas or systems that outlived and outgrew their creator’s dysfunction. So this point cuts against Crowley the man, not necessarily against Thelema the system.

And the most cynical version of this argument, which I’ll own as cynical rather than demonstrated: maybe occult communities have always attracted people in psychological distress, and what looks like a community-specific problem is really just what happens whenever vulnerable people gather around a charismatic authority figure. I don’t have evidence that people were “more unstable” in the past that’s not a claim I can actually support but I’d argue the dynamic (charisma + authority + vulnerable followers) is old and recurring, with or without a claim about historical psychology.

I always like to say "One day, Magick will collect all the broken toys".

 

[Rynnshng]

this is exactly the clarity i was hoping to find when i posted this thread. sovereignty has nothing to do with how much damage you can cause in the physical world or how many political enemies you can make. it is entirely about whether you own your own mind or whether your dogma owns you.

putting terrorism and aeonic warfare into the same bucket as someone trying to hold down a job while practicing banishing is lazy, just like you said. true hardness is not about being edgy or violent. it is about having the internal battery to face a completely mundane, boring, and difficult tuesday without collapsing into the astral plane for comfort. thank you for bringing the focus back to reality.

Post automatically merged: Today at 9:17 AM

you are conflating physical violence and political extremism with internal energetic discipline. they are not the same thing, and equating them is a massive strawman.

when i ask if the community has lost its teeth, i am not asking for more domestic terrorism or aeonic death cults. i am talking about the psychological resilience of the individual practitioner. there is a massive difference between a pluralistic field that allows for harmless escapism, and a field where the standard for success is simply feeling good while your actual life falls apart.

i am perfectly fine with people using magic for personal entertainment. my critique is aimed at the ones who demand the respect of a warrior while living the lifestyle of a victim. you do not need to infiltrate a government or declare war to prove you are not soft. you just need to be able to stand in a crowded room without leaking your own power. that is the only hardness i care about.

Your criteria seems solely focused on material success as a representation of magical success. The two are not related. The fact we infiltrated what we did is exactly the kind of preservatory internal magic discipline that allows a person to hide their intentions from others through glamour and provision of expected social mores. We have stood in many rooms without leaking our magical vitriol because that is how magic is done. How you shift shape. To achieve what you aim to achieve. Many of those with material success in the magical field, with prestige, property, money find it swept away from them or used as leverage against them as things they can lose, via cancel culture or ostracization for daring to challenge the status quo or reigning ideology. While I take your point that some project an outer mastery they do not in fact possess, your bar for the art of change is focused on superficial temporality. Some of the greatest magic, including music, poetry, art is created by those with utter shambles of lives. Without material possessions or mental stability. Some is not. I think your conflation of material success/stability and magical prowess is groundless.

Physical violence and political extremism are not separate from magic - they are among the principle causes of change, usually employed when rapid change is demanded. Extremism is a term the state uses, but which has no legal definition, neither does terrorism, both of which are genuine strawmen to label others who stand against their forms as an enemy. That doesn't give them grounding - that can only be enforced through more violence, and applying the label is part of that. Ontology and reality are not controlled by the Magi, nor the State, but many accept those terms as given, only, because of the violence used to enforce them, laziness/fear to challenge them or the convenience a supplied reality provides for consensus crystallization. Statecraft is witchcraft with guns and violence. But in academia you will find phrases such as 'terrorism is extremism' - a tautology that defines neither but then proceeds to talk about them as if it does. This nebulousness is what society is constructed upon, smoke and mirrors, and it can be torn down and modified, we are not helpless against terror, we are participants in this thing we call life. The ONA/THEM demonstrate and celebrate that.

We're not proving we're not soft, friend - we're making a stand against a sentinel, magico-political, pedophile, epsteinien class that are dismantling all international and domestic laws of decency and humanity and blaming scarecrows like the ONA and national Socialism as 'accelerationist' for doing what they themselves are doing.

Certainly, violence is not my preferred form of dialogue, I avoided it for three decades, and unlike our chattel brethren with low animal instincts that like terrorism, pedophilia, harming others, we have chosen to show the beauty of the Sinister through art, poetry, philosophy, music and non-violent subversion. Until now when we have added a new string to the bow. Presently we are hunting down cup and ring sites across the world and mapping them, because they're everywhere, but all have a specificity of being near rivers, and appear in at least 67 countries, 26 US states, multiple remote islands including Coats in far northern Canada, the Canary Islands, islands within inland seas and lakes, and we strongly reject the idea that this was the product of different people coming to the same conclusion. We aim to show a previous epoch was here, which magico-politically will assist in dismantling the hold religion and state have on history - (which is also asserted through violence). The only reason religion has a hold is because they killed anyone who challenged it and will do again today and tomorrow. These cup and rings have been misunderstood for aeons but they tell a very different story to the one constructed. And we are sharing it. Ironically, one of CB's Sinister Tarot cards features the Cup and Rings on a megalithic structure, and a woman holding a tetrahedron clutching her head in pain - we have actually lived that experience and archetype - brought his image to life, realising it only later upon accidental reflection.

This strategy of ours is detailed in The Corpus Themeticum. Rather than amass guns or build gangs that storm buildings and kill people to achieve an aim we have opted for a bloodless coup by taking command of the one thing the Australian Government values - the IAPA - (at least since 1970 when it stopped trying to murder and breed out the indigenous people) and pretended it was a renovated multi-cultural success to obscure its shame for its own genocide in 1947 of the Stolen Children. It is also an embarrassment to the intelligentsia that we have done so, bypassing all that national security and claims of its purpose and strength to protect - and shows the fragility of 'national security' which is a dangerous psychopathy to entertain. That's also why we don't attack buildings or protest because that is an expression of impotent rage, those things are engineered to absorb it and change nothing. So, we have employed novel means over simply assassinating those in power. Meanwhile, Australia engages, aids and supports another genocide while tyrannizing its people through co-opted Israeli magico-politics and AI enforcement as the totalitarian country it is. We will use many methods to resist. We have to. The world keeps trying to rationalise what is irrational - the magic of its army of death to fulfil a prophecy - and the longer it takes for the collective to understand that, the more people suffer the holocaust. It chagrins me to watch people preserve and protect it.

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Actual SRA with pangs of Project Monarch by the Zionists.

 

[12RelayT10]

You know... I was born an occultist, and the first thing I did was peel my face off. If you look at Harry Potter, he also has a scar. The difference is, he got his from another hand. But I see some similarities, like being a softy in the beginning and later becoming a tough Harry. So I think what you mean by the occult becoming “softer” is that the occult isn’t really the occult anymore, and it’s becoming “Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger”

 

[Zelator2148]

You know... I was born an occultist, and the first thing I did was peel my face off. If you look at Harry Potter, he also has a scar. The difference is, he got his from another hand. But I see some similarities, like being a softy in the beginning and later becoming a tough Harry. So I think what you mean by the occult becoming “softer” is that the occult isn’t really the occult anymore, and it’s becoming “Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger”

Your post reminded my of the old Gary Larson cartoon where a grizzly bear is chomping on the head and shoulders of a hunter and says to a second bear "I love these things, soft on the outside, crunchy in the middle." The "softies" here are certainly showing a good deal of internal "crunch."