Is wealth really the measure of one's magic?

[Taudefindi]

I was reading some posts about magic and magicians and that made me wonder, can we truly only call someone a legit [insert magic-themed role] if they have a lot of money due to their practices?

Because this seems to be the general consensus of majority, that a good mage(I'm using this term as is the most neutral in scope and gender) is only one that can be wealthy, although I don't think many really explain if they should be "1% type" of wealthy or middle-class's version of wealthy, which is someone that can have a comfortable life and sometimes splurge on luxuries.

Maybe it's because I automatically do not link "magic" with "money" because to me the connection only reminds me of scammers, or it is because I was influenced by many fictional works when younger, but in my head a legit mage would be someone "of power".That can make things happen by their will(and work) alone.
I never associated them with "being wealthy", although in hindsight-and after reading some books in history of magic-it does make sense that the ones learning about (certain types of)magic in the past would be people that we could call "learned", and to be learned back then meant having some status.And status was mostly acquired through wealth.

But nowadays, with the advent of internet and the ease of share of knowledge, has wealth become the tool to determine if someone's magic is valid or not?Or is this only for certain types of people?For example, book authors that write about this specific subject, or people that claim to be great at magic?At which point should wealth be a measure of one's magic?

Spoiler: ps

You can answer as deep(ly philosophical) or as shallow as you like, I'm not going to judge.I'm just going to discuss it.

 

[Vandheer]

I was reading some posts about magic and magicians and that made me wonder, can we truly only call someone a legit [insert magic-themed role] if they have a lot of money due to their practices?

No.

Sure, it helps not thinking about rent or mortgage or whatever. It would be very, very good if you have managed to get to a point you will never have to worry about it and could just focus on the Great Work, or whatever is to their liking.

But I am pretty sure there are practitioners who are very skilled but also desentesized to earthly posessions, whether because they are getting what they want without money or not, or money means nothing to them because there is something grander. Or insert whatever reason.

 

[Morell]

I was reading some posts about magic and magicians and that made me wonder, can we truly only call someone a legit [insert magic-themed role] if they have a lot of money due to their practices?

Yes.

Magic can be used to achieve many goals. If someone's goal is money, so be it. I do not connect those two things, magic and money, either, but definitely magic can be used to get money. Only I wouldn't want as much as possible, I just want enough to live comfortably and sometimes buy an occult book or something.

However I think that a sign of good magician is the difference between talking about magic online and actually practicing magic. Those who practice, don't have that much time to talk magic and even if not good now, they are the ones, who are heading towards being good.

No.

Sure, it helps not thinking about rent or mortgage or whatever. It would be very, very good if you have managed to get to a point you will never have to worry about it and could just focus on the Great Work, or whatever is to their liking.

But I am pretty sure there are practitioners who are very skilled but also desentesized to earthly posessions, whether because they are getting what they want without money or not, or money means nothing to them because there is something grander. Or insert whatever reason.

That's actually true as well.

 

[Taudefindi]

It would be very, very good if you have managed to get to a point you will never have to worry about it and could just focus on the Great Work

That would be amazing indeed.
A bit stereotypical with the classic "wizard in the tower", but I imagine that being able to (chose to)focus only on that would feel very rewarding.

Post automatically merged: Aug 1, 2024

a sign of good magician is the difference between talking about magic online and actually practicing magic

The difference of an armchair mage and a mage.
Though there is some merit in discussing the theories of magic, as long as people remember that practice is also a necessity.

 

[Yazata]

I was reading some posts about magic and magicians and that made me wonder, can we truly only call someone a legit [insert magic-themed role] if they have a lot of money due to their practices?

Because this seems to be the general consensus of majority, that a good mage(I'm using this term as is the most neutral in scope and gender) is only one that can be wealthy, although I don't think many really explain if they should be "1% type" of wealthy or middle-class's version of wealthy, which is someone that can have a comfortable life and sometimes splurge on luxuries.

Maybe it's because I automatically do not link "magic" with "money" because to me the connection only reminds me of scammers, or it is because I was influenced by many fictional works when younger, but in my head a legit mage would be someone "of power".That can make things happen by their will(and work) alone.
I never associated them with "being wealthy", although in hindsight-and after reading some books in history of magic-it does make sense that the ones learning about (certain types of)magic in the past would be people that we could call "learned", and to be learned back then meant having some status.And status was mostly acquired through wealth.

But nowadays, with the advent of internet and the ease of share of knowledge, has wealth become the tool to determine if someone's magic is valid or not?Or is this only for certain types of people?For example, book authors that write about this specific subject, or people that claim to be great at magic?At which point should wealth be a measure of one's magic?

Spoiler: ps

You can answer as deep(ly philosophical) or as shallow as you like, I'm not going to judge.I'm just going to discuss it.

The Great Beast died poor but I doubt anybody will deny he was a great Magician.
I've had the idea (with all goals really) that not getting exactly what you want is a motivation to keep going and improving and moving beyond. Maybe the many money spells (and love spells too) are a test to see if the Magician is serious about Magick?

 

[Jackson]

I see no reason they can't be considered a highly successful petty sorcerer, but you wouldn't usually measure any art solely by money.

Unless the radioactive toothpaste of it's day is a good product.

 

[Pyrokar]

C'mon. we all know who uses this mo all the time. some mages are mystics
only interested in closeness and union with their patron, they do things many would consider idiotic like standing on one leg for 30 years
caves,forests,deserts. they go there and are never heard from for x years.

that was just example one and that logic is already trashed.
That kind of train of thought is nothing more than what "they" would do had they those powers
and of course they won't get them.
"hurr durr if you speak to spirits why can't i see/hear them"
"if you could do that you would be rich beyond belief" okay, maybe you would.
Reducing magick to a money grab it's just....like....i've seen some stupid in my life, but come the fuck on.
isn't it historically more accurate magicians want to fuck off and be left in peace, and have a natural predisposition to dislike
wealth and that obscene kind of lifestyle. Indeed, you can't even pass level one if you don't acquire such a mentality
imagine living like Mr.Crabs bruh.

this is indirectly related to when i asked how a Magician appears and though it took a while i think we all agreed.
it's some sort of x factor for sure, but it's not - can not - nor will it ever be - Andrew Tate or Paul Logan.

also why wouldn't a magician check out a forum? straight up unfair.
mind the absolutism it's leaving a rather jaded atmosphere.

Also note: real wealth, and this is complete normies, never show off their means. They could buy your whole bloodline
but will be dressed using whatever they dig up from the lost & found

 

[HoldAll]

Many people hold down low-level jobs, e.g. as civil servants, to have enough leisure time for their hobbies, callings, charitable volunteer work, etc., so if you asked them to choose between, say, their beloved daily aikido classes and a lucrative career as a business executive, they would probably go for the former (ok, you'll have to live in a relatively affluent economy so you don't have to work two or three low-paying jobs just in order to survive). Ok, granted, maybe that's a European thing.

Conversely, E.A. Koetting talked in one of his early videos about how he used to attend workshops held by these famous occult authors who all struck him as either overweight, out of shape or plain not healthy. Is fitness the measure of one's magic, too? How many buff wizards are there?

In "Liber Null & Psychonaut" (1987), Peter J. Carroll writes:

The magical life demands the abandonment of comfort, conventionality, security, and safety—for competition, combat, extremes, and adversity are needed to produce higher resolutions and personal evolution. An air of desperation is required in a life lived close to the edge. One must be living by one’s wits.

In "Liber Kaos" (1992), his next book, however, he starts a paragraph with: "Before I made myself wealthy, …". Turns out he started a successful mail order and wholesale business (and eventually an export business) in aromatherapy oils, creams, cosmetics, etc. in the meantime, so he must have become fed up with 'living on the edge' between his first and second book. In "Financial Sorcery", Jason Miller talks about how he was a slacker in his 20ies and 30ies, I think until he got married, and I guess many people in the occult have similar biographies.

For me, the measure of a mage is not financial success but charisma - utter self-confidence, that mesmerizing gaze and the unmistakable vibes of a celebrity [before you even know what he or she is supposed to be famous for - I've met such (non-magical) people, this is not some fantasy of mine]. And what's also important would be that a mage can turn that charisma on and off and become inconspicuous if need be. I would describe that magical charisma as one of my main occult goals, wealth doesn't come into it.

 

[Jackson]

Is fitness the measure of one's magic, too?

it might help channel energy more easily though

 

[Vandheer]

C'mon. we all know who uses this mo all the time.

Yeah we might as well tag him

 

[Pyrokar]

Is fitness the measure of one's magic, too? How many buff wizards are there?

we also talked about this in the fuel capacity thread, a magician absolutely should be physically fit if not above average

i share your leaning towards charisma, but it too is rooted in health and fitness.
Ritual work is draining, what can you expect from a magician who can't do a pushup
one might use belief, willpower, chi, charisma, all viable sources. But beneath it all i think the yazman got it right.
It's life/sex/kundalini that is the original "mana"
which isn't to say a cripple can't do magick, their life force will simply shine through other means.
"weak of mind - weak of body" it's all connected.

One must be living by one’s wits.

love that. also note he didn't get rich off of magick it was business upon which he may have used magick not the other way around
a very simple difference in intent and quality - compare Carroll to GoM or New Avatar and the result should be a chuckle.

 

[HoldAll]

love that. also note he didn't get rich off of magick it was business upon which he may have used magick not the other way around
a very simple difference in intent and quality - compare Carroll to GoM or New Avatar and the result should be a chuckle.

In Interview with a Wizard, he says:

I don’t think any promotional material ever left the premises without me casting a spell over it.

Nice.

 

[Taudefindi]

workshops held by these famous occult authors who all struck him as either overweight, out of shape or plain not healthy

Occult authors that also were mages too?Because you can be one and not be the other.

How many buff wizards are there?

Don't know, but I do plan to become one

For me, the measure of a mage is not financial success but charisma

Makes sense, that "magnetism that attracts" the attention of others.

I would describe that magical charisma as one of my main occult goals

A great goal to have indeed.

it might help channel energy more easily though

I see fitness as a necessity mostly because of endurance needed for rituals, but a fit mage that works their body, mind and spirit will always be more in-tune than one that trains just one, two or none.

It's a bit akin to having all gears in a machine welll oiled and in pristine condition.If one piece is a bit off it may not matter much but it will certainly affect it's performance, and in tge long run it may affect the integrity of the machine.

a magician absolutely should be physically fit if not above average

Agree.

"weak of mind - weak of body" it's all connected

It's as that old phrase says: as above so below, as within so without.

 

[Mars]

Yes it is. Its just dealing with the basic shit you need to even live a life in the current age.

Enough money to not worry about the price tag when buying food, a house or whatever.

Everything else comes later. Everything else is cope. Being non materialistic does not mean to abstain from anything materialistic, but not to be controlled by it.
Actually you are still being controlled by materialistic desires if you avoid them by saying "Oh I dont need money". If you have that money, and are able to indulge in everything and even being offered it but refuse... only then you are truly non materialistic. The true face of a man only shows itself when he is rich.

It's the same but a different colour with being good or talented at something.

This is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

Theres many ways to do this, you can fuck with the automated systems during leverage day trading, stocks in general, lottery tickets or others

All depends on how proficient you are. If you are not proficient enough to get all numbers in the same line for lottery than you are not good enough yet. Simple as.

I manage 4 out of 6 currently on a single tip line on a lottery ticket. With all correct numbers on the entire ticket. Just spread out, not yet in the same line. I need to become better. No one else is doing it for me. It is my duty to do so.
I'm still not at the point where I would like to be. But it is possible. And this is just fucking remote viewing.

No, do not tell me "But you can live a good life even without much money". This is cope. then use your magic to get money and build with it.

You do not realise how much you can do it with it. How much you can do for others and make their lifes easier and better. Or for your communities. Or whats left of them.

Theres many people, yes even in europe, europeans, the white race ( you don't need to look to africa) , that can not even eat properly, pay bills or survive.

You can open up 24/7 soup kitchens with it and feed people that are hungry, you can buy up forests and turn them into sanctuaries, you can pay mercenaries to guard the rainforest which is currently being cut down by assholes, you can pay other peoples debt with that money, you can pay your parents,
you know the ones that raised you and went through a lot of trouble in doing so and finance their life so they will never have to work again

you can use that money and build temples for our original gods, (did you know the fucking muslims destroyed a shit ton of the sumer statues and relics in Iraq? Lets hope they do not come back.)

you can finance a poor ass engineer or scientist that desperately works on new drive systems so we can go back to Mars and Venus and terraform them etc. etc. we would be an interstellar civilisation by now.

You can do everything with money and be selfless, pious, humble and non materialistic too. Even moreso. Just look at MrBeast. He is a case study in Hermeticism. He did the shit thats written, instead of talking about it and larping. Never have I seen someone that's actually this successful with it.

Acta non verba.

 

[lee smith]

In my initial training I was taught to never charge for magical services and while donations were fine they were never to be solicited. i was also taught that any magic that I wanted to do for personal gain was extremely suspect. Now, 35 odd years later I don't feel that way. Magic is as much for my benefit as anyone else's. If you are a parent and your young children are not being provided the basic necessities and you are a wizard, whatever, and you refuse to use magic to help your family my opinion of ripe garbage is probably higher than the one I have for you.

As far as fitness, 7 years ago i had a complex migraine with aura that mimicked a stroke and nearly killed me. I got to learn to tell time again and that good stuff. It forced me into permanent retirement. I tell you that while one can have deep and meaningful mystic experiences it is much easier to do operant magic when one is healthy . By healthy, I mean at a proper weight with a decent amount of muscle and some cardio endurance, BP and blood sugar in check with a good mental, emotional health.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Money is just Earthy energy, there's a reason why in the Tarot the Earth element is represented by coins with magical symbols on them, and is one of the things mastered on the Magician card. Like all things outside ourselves, money is just a tool. If you cannot provide for yourself, you're not much of a successful individual, let alone a successful mage.

And if you become slave to something outside of yourself, like a grubby little Golem in search of his precious (absurd wealth accumulation) you're not much of a mage either. It's like blood, you need a certain amount to live, out of compassion you can donate some of it to the needy, but having more than you need is just... silly. Selfish. Bad

 

[Lurker]

No, because I see no evidence that everyone prioritizes money magick. I think the measure of a successful mage is being able to routinely achieve success with magick, regardless of what they are using it for.

 

[Taudefindi]

I think the measure of a successful mage is being able to routinely achieve success with magick, regardless of what they are using it for.

A very good point and one that I also believe in.

 

[Xenophon]

No, because I see no evidence that everyone prioritizes money magick. I think the measure of a successful mage is being able to routinely achieve success with magick, regardless of what they are using it for.

Exactly. I think little of Christianity, but venerate Albrecht Duerer's, "Ritter, Tod, und Teufel" as a surpassing great masterpiece. Same thing with money magick. A preoccupation with gold and Geld might not be the supreme best use of one's time. But if a mage gets wealth, there is no fault to be found with his his magick as such. The measure of magick is whether or not the worker gets results.

 

[Asteriskos]

No.

Sure, it helps not thinking about rent or mortgage or whatever. It would be very, very good if you have managed to get to a point you will never have to worry about it and could just focus on the Great Work, or whatever is to their liking.

But I am pretty sure there are practitioners who are very skilled but also desentesized to earthly posessions, whether because they are getting what they want without money or not, or money means nothing to them because there is something grander. Or insert whatever reason.

A. O. Spare was like that. There were apparently some instances where he did Real Sorcery "almost" instantly, with witnesses, yet he lived barely above subsistence level. There's a few examples in "Austin Osman Spare" by Phil Baker, with a foreword by Alan Moore, if anyone's interested.

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2024

A. O. Spare was like that. There were apparently some instances where he did Real Sorcery "almost" instantly, with witnesses, yet he lived barely above subsistence level. There's a few examples in "Austin Osman Spare" by Phil Baker, with a foreword by Alan Moore, if anyone's interested.

The book I mentioned has a subtitle too, might help in a search: "The Occult Life of London's Legendary Artist".

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2024

The Great Beast died poor but I doubt anybody will deny he was a great Magician.
I've had the idea (with all goals really) that not getting exactly what you want is a motivation to keep going and improving and moving beyond. Maybe the many money spells (and love spells too) are a test to see if the Magician is serious about Magick?

After his family fortune was squandered, he did manage at least a fair pension from British Intelligence (for Services Rendered), I recall that from something by Kenneth Grant, a Long time ago, I think it was an interview. He lived in "Netherwood", a fairly nice Boarding House the last few years of life. Point being he wasn't entirely destitute, as I recall.

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2024

A. O. Spare was like that. There were apparently some instances where he did Real Sorcery "almost" instantly, with witnesses, yet he lived barely above subsistence level. There's a few examples in "Austin Osman Spare" by Phil Baker, with a foreword by Alan Moore, if anyone's interested.

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2024

The book I mentioned has a subtitle too, might help in a search: "The Occult Life of London's Legendary Artist".

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2024

After his family fortune was squandered, he did manage at least a fair pension from British Intelligence (for Services Rendered), I recall that from something by Kenneth Grant, a Long time ago, I think it was an interview. He lived in "Netherwood", a fairly nice Boarding House the last few years of life. Point being he wasn't entirely destitute, as I recall.

Let me add so this is not taken as off topic, that through his Magic and Notoriety he assured his Retirement?