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[Opinion] Islamic systems of magick

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Blackrose00

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“The book says you can’t do it, therefore it doesn’t happen”: this is not how religions work, especially ancient and widespread ones. Fundies quoting verses and engaging in no-true-Scotsman are just another ingredient of the soup. And when it comes to “magic” and cognate terms in various languages, the term is very amorphous and the loopholes are huge. Whether one calls it “magic” or something more pious like “prayer”, “spirituality,” etc Islamic magic exists. Here’s an exercise for you: define magic.
Magic in a nutshell = forcing a person to do something against their will, making them do it unwittingly, tricking them, deceiving them

It's not very smart to equate prayer with magic.
 

Voidking

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Why did you quit?
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Or see:

Harut and Marut

Well at that time I was a believer in a god up there sitting on a throne and I was happy following rules and rejecting the burden of choice and responsibility, then I started experimenting with psilocybin mushrooms and DMT, I had these mindblowing mystical non-dual expriences and a "temporary dissolution of the self", this resulted in a kind of existential crisis trying to grasp what happened to me and cope up with the fact that all my life has been an illusion, I've been following parents and religions like a blind sheep, I started looking for a philosophy that can explain what happened to me, I found Alan Watts, Ram Dass, Jiddu Krishnamurti, which led me to Yoga and Buddhism, Taoism, and now exploring the occult.... of course at that time I renounced Islam... then I came to understand that Islam has a mystical aspect encapsulated by Mystics such as Jalal Al Din Rumi, Shams Tabrizi, Ibn Arabi, Abu al-Hasan al-Shushtari, Attar of Aishapur, Hafiz, .... and I concluded that these mystics were promulgating the "perennial philosophy" and not the radical dogmatic ideology that promotes EGOTISM, separation and violence.
 

Blackrose00

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Giving up is your problem, it is quite normal to come to such a conclusion when you do your research wrong, when what you do is wrong.
 

Blackrose00

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So you have an extremely narrow definition that leaves out about 9/10 of magic. Try again?
I think I'm giving a broad definition, although there are different types of magic, the essence of it is to force someone to do something against their will, it can go as far as killing them.
I don't think I'm giving a narrow definition, you give me your definition?
 

Xingtian

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You also hear that alcohol is absolutely haram yet Muslims in Central Asia have been boozing on kumis for centuries with the sanction of (their version) of Hanafi jurisprudence.
 

Blackrose00

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You also hear that alcohol is absolutely haram yet Muslims in Central Asia have been boozing on kumis for centuries with the sanction of (their version) of Hanafi jurisprudence.
I have just answered this and similar questions, please read it
If you don't want to understand, don't ask me questions, keep thinking the way you know
 

Vandheer

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So you have an extremely narrow definition that leaves out about 9/10 of magic. Try again?
Let me try explain the thought process here, as a former Muslim. Shit like what west would define black magick or love magick is definitetely forbidden in this way of thought, period. That indeed leaves nine out of ten. You also can't use it for your personal gains. For someone elses gain? Maybe? I am not sure.

But if you are devising stuff with names of Allah or calling on angels or whatever, that just fine, call it dua, abjad, havass, anything but magic and you are good 😉. There is always a loophole.

As for the usage of jinn? Thats above my paygrade to draw a line.
 

Taudefindi

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Magic in a nutshell = forcing a person to do something against their will, making them do it unwittingly, tricking them, deceiving them
I'll enter the discussion here.

Magic is first and foremost for the person doing magic themselves, if anything it is about self-development and development of personal power(and said power can take any shape or form, including even the manipulation of others, yes).

It is known that there are people that try to use magic to influence others or affect them in bad ways.
But that's a small part of magic, not magic as a whole.A piece of something doesn't represent it in it's entirety, but it's still a piece of it, like a branch is part of a tree and might even be used to represent a tree, but the branch itself isn't the tree.

It's not very smart to equate prayer with magic.
Prayers(in religion) and chants(in magic rituals) aren't so different, the source and intent is the only differential, but in the end prayers are a type of magic.

Call it divine magic if necessary, but it is a magic of sorts.
 

Xenophon

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Magic in a nutshell = forcing a person to do something against their will, making them do it unwittingly, tricking them, deceiving them

It's not very smart to equate prayer with magic.
No one is doing that. They are just discussing magick as it is practiced---legally or not---in Islamic cultures.
 

Flavius

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Reading some ONA documents brought this question to mind as to why one is urged within the ONA to join Islam.
I thought of tacking onto the existing o9a thread, but then the question broadened in my mind into several questions.

If Islam has built in magickal systems or the Quran can be used to wield Magick?

if the Pyramid Sage Talismans are a basis for later Islamic Talismans?

How magi within Islam are not viciously persecuted?

Why djinn are a popular base of Magick and how?

You might want to look up Professor Saiyad Nizamuddin Ahmad on YouTube. There are a couple of videos with him on the channel Glitch Bottle where he talks about some of these things. The video is called Professor Saiyad Ahmad on Quranic Theurgy and Islamic Esotericism.
 

AlpStellarvore

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Greetings from a country with a Muslim majority.

The name given to these works in Islam is "havas". Although Havas mostly deals with protective works such as talismans there is a class named huddams that manage the jinns.

Being a Huddam is a talent passed down through blood ties. Not everyone can be a huddam. Huddams rule the jinns. Although they often take part in exorcism rituals, their skills are much more. For example, a talented huddam can have your lost belongings found by the jinn under his command. A malevolent person may harm another person with evil jinns. It is forbidden to receive news from the future in Islam. Allah forbidden the jinn to bring news about the future and closed the sky over them. Before it was banned, Jinn would rise to the sky and receive news from the future. However, some khuddams may violate this prohibition and have the jinn gather information. The accuracy of this information cannot be confirmed because demons are very liar beings.

Being a Huddam is not prohibited in Islam. is seen as harmful. The main reasons why it seems objectionable are:

1) Huddam can change the balance between dimensions. So it's like the butterfly effect. and this may have detrimental effects on the dimension in which we live.

2) Huddam can kill the jinn with whom he is hostile. Islam warns in this regard. Killing a demon is also a form of murder and it is not tolerated.

Additionally, Hadith sources convey the Prophet's contacts with the huddams and havas.
I have a lot of Havas books, but I couldn't read any of those books due to reading western sources. I guess I should check these out one day.
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Actually calling it Islamic magic system is not correct. Islam does not include in its literature many of the practices that you would consider magic. Sorcerers among Muslims use magic rituals inherited from pagan traditions before Islam came to those lands. Black magic literature within Islam comes from Assyrian, pagan Arab, Zoroastrian and Hebrew sources.

However, the other system, havas, is included in Islam. Havas is not a system that you would consider magic. There are interesting rituals in Havas. For example, one of them is to mention some verses in the Quran a certain number of times. They get some things in return for these certain numbers of dhikr. However, "riyazat" is required for these. Riyazat is the 40-day period in which a person spends isolated from society and devotes himself to taming his earthly emotions. During these 40 days, the person must follow a vegan diet. He cannot engage in any sexual activity. He constantly dhikr.
In addition, they consume "peganum seeds" and "Arundo donax" (they make a tea similar to ayahuasca), which will open the doors of their perception, and this inhibits the enzymes that prevent DMT secretion and causes DMT to be secreted from the pineal gland.
 
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SkullTraill

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SkullTraill

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I think my mythology may be rusty, but aren't those ifrit or shayateen?Or are they all jinn in the end?
No you're right, I just meant in "western" schools of magick we have things like "demons", "fae", "spirits" and in the middle east they have "djinn", "ifrit" etc etc, every culture/superculture has their own variations of similar concepts, I just meant it's not productive to as the question "why does <location> put so much emphasis on <local dieties>?" It's because they are local.

And honestly, strict definitions aside, from the significant time I've spent with middle eastern/muslim people, they often use "djinn" colloquially the same way we use "demon" or "spirit" etc.
 

Xingtian

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As I understand it, compared to angels and devils, jinn are a lot like people. Shapeshifting, invisible, magic people. They are a rational animal species. There are Muslim jinn as well as Christian jinn, Jewish jinn, even atheist jinn. They are probably most comparable to faeries or the old sense of daimon as nature spirit. Muslims would map jinn onto local invisible entities when they moved into new areas. Keep in mind that the five countries with the highest Muslim populations are all outside the middle east.
 
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