Book Discussion Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell - Historical Novel by Susanna Clarke

[Asteriskos]

Hey there!,
I'd like to know if anyone has read the "massive" historical novel about English Magic, "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell"?
It's 782 pages of relatively small print, with "massive" footnotes, sometimes pages long! The author is Susanna Clarke whom I was not familiar with prior to this. I'm "most impressed" with her novel.

My wife just "gifted" me with an "almost new" hardback she and her book club found at a book fair! She knows me inside and out, I Love That Girl !!!
I promptly threw some frankincense resin upon the charcoal and "exorcised" it with due ceremony some days ago, it's a beautiful book with perfect dust jacket. I'm now half way through it and have adapted to the milieu, I "think"! Does anyone have Any Thoughts on this book Pro / Con / IDK?

 

[HoldAll]

In case someone wants to read that novel, it's can be found on annas-archive.org though I wouldn't encourage the uploading of fiction to the forum Library, enlightening as many sci-fi novels may be - hell, I used to be a sci-fi buff myself (Iain Banks! Alistair Reynolds, Neal Asher, Charles Stross, etc.), it's just that I now find myself swamped in 'technical' magical literature. Do you have any preliminary insights relating to practical magical work you'd like to share? Hard to get the discussion ball rolling properly when all you say here is "I've got this new book, so what do you think?" Yes, it's won the Hugo Award (!) but what is it you find interesting personally or like about it so far?

 

[Asteriskos]

In case someone wants to read that novel, it's can be found on annas-archive.org though I wouldn't encourage the uploading of fiction to the forum Library, enlightening as many sci-fi novels may be - hell, I used to be a sci-fi buff myself (Iain Banks! Alistair Reynolds, Neal Asher, Charles Stross, etc.), it's just that I now find myself swamped in 'technical' magical literature. Do you have any preliminary insights relating to practical magical work you'd like to share? Hard to get the discussion ball rolling properly when all you say here is "I've got this new book, so what do you think?" Yes, it's won the Hugo Award (!) but what is it you find interesting personally or like about it so far?

Well first off, the "historicity" of it, the time frame, secondly, the concept that there was "once upon a time" a thing called "English Magic" which early on in the book "appears to have been LOST!" I was asking if Anyone had Read the Book Prior to ME! And... wished to Share Their thoughts with Me! Thirdly, I want to be there when Napolean get his Ass Kicked!!! I've been practicing Magic/k for Thirty Five Years, it's time for some Light Reading!

 

[Taudefindi]

I haven't read the novel, just gave a glance at the TV adaptation of it.
But their "magic system" is indeed interesting.
It's a mix of material components, chanting/word and gestures(not all at once, sometimes it's just one or they mix two), the kind of magic most people associate to a magician from ficiton.

It is oddly inspiring to see what kind of magic they can create by using those classical means.If I had to mention something it is how ritualistic their magic seems(by the use of certain actions or objects) but when they're actually doing it it doesn't feels as ritualistic as you would think.It feels more...performatic?Practical?
Though maybe that's just on the Tv adaptation from the book, maybe the book itself is rife with rituals.

I do believe that, if magic was something as "showy" like that though(despite some magic not being that showy, but you get what I mean) and was considered as common knowledge as it is in that setting, most likely it would indeed have been used in war like they do on the show(and I guess on the book as well).

I wouldn't encourage the uploading of fiction to the forum Library, enlightening as many sci-fi novels may be

Agreed.
Fiction can be a place of inspiration and enlightment sometimes, but if we start letting fictional works come here it won't take long before everything gets mixed and both the "real life magic" books and discussions end up swallowed by those of "fictional magic".

 

[Asteriskos]

Additionally, there's also (early on) in the story that "most dreaded" of dichotomies: Theoretical (Armchair), and the "Much Rarer" Practical Magician! It caused me to ruminate upon the time when I myself first "Dared", as in one of the sides of the Pyramid (ya Know?) to Actually USE Magic/k! It was "alluring, scary, et al!". I also employed that most useful of "mudras", fingers crossed on both hands behind my back!
Fortunately for Me, I got a taste of it and have not looked back! Yes, it Can actually alter the "probability" factor in Your favor!
Of course Theory is a necessary refinement, but Practicing Magic/k will cause your "Deep Mind" to send frissons and shivers all through your esoteric anatomy! That should be a "flag" that somethings Happening, or About to Real Soon Now!
If there's a Moral to the story it just may be "Don't sit on the Fence, PRACTICE MAGIC/K!"

I gotta say this author is right up there at the Top of her game, IMO! If I were allowed to have been part of the process of that Hugo Award, I most certainly would voted in her favor, while simultaneously giving a Standing Ovation at the ceremony!

Post automatically merged: Apr 18, 2024

I haven't read the novel, just gave a glance at the TV adaptation of it.

I haven't seen that, very interesting, thanks for pointing that out!

But their "magic system" is indeed interesting.
It's a mix of material components, chanting/word and gestures(not all at once, sometimes it's just one or they mix two), the kind of magic most people associate to a magician from ficiton.

It is oddly inspiring to see what kind of magic they can create by using those classical means.If I had to mention something it is how ritualistic their magic seems(by the use of certain actions or objects) but when they're actually doing it it doesn't feels as ritualistic as you would think.It feels more...performatic?Practical?
Though maybe that's just on the Tv adaptation from the book, maybe the book itself is rife with rituals.

I do believe that, if magic was something as "showy" like that though(despite some magic not being that showy, but you get what I mean) and was considered as common knowledge as it is in that setting, most likely it would indeed have been used in war like they do on the show(and I guess on the book as well).

Agreed.
Fiction can be a place of inspiration and enlightment sometimes, but if we start letting fictional works come here it won't take long before everything gets mixed and both the "real life magic" books and discussions end up swallowed by those of "fictional magic".

 

[Taudefindi]

"most dreaded" of dichotomies: Theoretical (Armchair), and the "Much Rarer" Practical Magician

Indeed.
The so called magicians only spoke of theories or past glories(not even their own if I'm not mistaken, but "of English magic" in general).Otherwise their "society" was no more than a gentleman's club for simple social meetings rather than discussing and dealing with magic proper.

It caused me to ruminate upon the time when I myself first "Dared", as in one of the sides of the Pyramid (ya Know?) to Actually USE Magic/k!

Theory is the ideal practice, practice is the actual theory in action.
But yeah, first times really feel different from just speaking about them.

If there's a Moral to the story it just may be "Don't sit on the Fence, PRACTICE MAGIC/K!"

And that "if you don't practice it then don't pretend to know about it".

I haven't seen that

You can easily find the episodes on youtube, and it's interesting since they give an actual image to the magic portrayed in the work.
Like the "sand horses", or the "glass magic".

I have to say, while the discussion here started about the book, I think this can easily end up becoming a discussion about "armchair vs practicing" magicians on the general occult forum.Because the book itself, despite having interesting lessons and inspirations, is still a work of fiction and works of fiction aren't well seen because, as said before, they can murk the lines between reality and fiction and attract the wrong kind of people to the site.And from there it is a downward spiral.

My advice?
Pick the subjects of the book that most interested you/made you think and then write them as their own threads here:

General Occult Discussion

Use this section to discuss Occult topics that do not fit in the other sections, or that apply to many types of Occult practice.

wizardforums.com

 

[Asteriskos]

I haven't read the novel, just gave a glance at the TV adaptation of it.
But their "magic system" is indeed interesting.
It's a mix of material components, chanting/word and gestures(not all at once, sometimes it's just one or they mix two), the kind of magic most people associate to a magician from ficiton.

It is oddly inspiring to see what kind of magic they can create by using those classical means.If I had to mention something it is how ritualistic their magic seems(by the use of certain actions or objects) but when they're actually doing it it doesn't feels as ritualistic as you would think.It feels more...performatic?Practical?
Though maybe that's just on the Tv adaptation from the book, maybe the book itself is rife with rituals.

I do believe that, if magic was something as "showy" like that though(despite some magic not being that showy, but you get what I mean) and was considered as common knowledge as it is in that setting, most likely it would indeed have been used in war like they do on the show(and I guess on the book as well).

Agreed.
Fiction can be a place of inspiration and enlightment sometimes, but if we start letting fictional works come here it won't take long before everything gets mixed and both the "real life magic" books and discussions end up swallowed by those of "fictional magic".

Ah..., you're Both Staff Librarians, I understand your Concern! I didn't mean to cause any alarm by mashing magical fiction and non-fiction together, it was simply such a "Synchronicity" that I would receive a pristine book Like This as a gift, that I merely interpreted it as another "Little Act of Magic/k", not uncommon in a Magical Life! Please feel free to delete this topic, I detest childish "hissy fits" , as Staff, Ya gotta Do what Ya Gotta Do! It's So... Rare that I indulge in "fiction", Magical or Otherwise, I suppose I was temporarily "beside myself" with delight!
Believe this: I am foremost a Practical Magician, er... Sorcerer!!!


Don't these "new" people cause an Awful Lot of "unnecessary, if unintentional" Work around here?

Post automatically merged: Apr 18, 2024

I meant to say that I won't "throw a hissy fit" if you guys do what ya gotta do! It's All Good!

 

[Taudefindi]

I didn't mean to cause any alarm by mashing magical fiction and non-fiction together

It isn't an alarm per se, but if we allow one we have to allow others and from that it might end up in a slippery slope.
The book itself might have interesting discussion subjects but even those can easily become subjects to talk about in the general forums and that ends up taking away the focus on the book.

Novels end up having as their focus either the plot, the characters or the worldbuilding.And yes, those can also have something worthy to mention that also brushes on "real life magic", but the more we talk about that the more we stray from the book itself and more into the subjects that came from it.

Please feel free to delete this topic

I don't think it's something that should be deleted.

It isn't a threat to WF and it might serve as both a reminder as to why fictional books aren't exactly talked about here but also as to why they're still important nonetheless(as they can generate interesting topics to talk about).
There isn't any problem with being into fictional magic, it's just that we have to be alert to deal with people that might confuse reality and fiction, so we have to be a bit strict with fictional books exactly to avoid attracting those that can't distinguish.

But...you CAN create a journal to talk about the book itself freely if you want to.As long as you don't go spreading hate or break any rules, journals are quite free as to what you can write on them.

 

[Asteriskos]

Indeed.
The so called magicians only spoke of theories or past glories(not even their own if I'm not mistaken, but "of English magic" in general).Otherwise their "society" was no more than a gentleman's club for simple social meetings rather than discussing and dealing with magic proper.


Theory is the ideal practice, practice is the actual theory in action.
But yeah, first times really feel different from just speaking about them.


And that "if you don't practice it then don't pretend to know about it".

You can easily find the episodes on youtube, and it's interesting since they give an actual image to the magic portrayed in the work.
Like the "sand horses", or the "glass magic".

I have to say, while the discussion here started about the book, I think this can easily end up becoming a discussion about "armchair vs practicing" magicians on the general occult forum.Because the book itself, despite having interesting lessons and inspirations, is still a work of fiction and works of fiction aren't well seen because, as said before, they can murk the lines between reality and fiction and attract the wrong kind of people to the site.And from there it is a downward spiral.

My advice?
Pick the subjects of the book that most interested you/made you think and then write them as their own threads here:

General Occult Discussion

Use this section to discuss Occult topics that do not fit in the other sections, or that apply to many types of Occult practice.

wizardforums.com

Noted!
It's refreshing to find one's self in the company of those who have, or are in the process of, "paying their dues", I wonder how many realize that's also "Synchronistic"? The ongoing drive of the staff to make this a high quality place to be was something that did not escape me when I "lurked" prior to registering! Deep calls to Deep as well!

 

[Vandheer]

No but seriously, I agree with the mod. Open up a journal. You are all over the place.

I don't mean it like you are spamming all over the forum by the way.

 

[Asteriskos]

No but seriously, I agree with the mod. Open up a journal. You are all over the place.

I don't mean it like you are spamming all over the forum by the way.

1.) I consider most advice, once I saw that the "mods" were both staff librarians I understood where they were coming from!

2.) I'm Impressed with "pretty much" everything I've seen all the mods interact in, I don't see why You would think otherwise?

3.) I've reacted to a few things I've observed, and am picking up on what the "preferred protocol" just might be, but seriously my enthusiasm being new just turned into a gigantic time-sync. Nobody wants or needs that. I don't feel bad about it though, stumbling around in the dark is how you find the light switch! So, I'll determine what direction to take and Act on it! By nature I'm not one that speaks a lot! This short interlude has actually been a rarity for me, expect me when you see me, and Thanks for your advice!

 

[pixel_fortune]

Absolutely one of my favourite books

I also strongly strongly recommend her other book, Piranesi. It's completely different in some ways, and a LOT shorter, but it has deep magical resonance imo.

 

[Asteriskos]

Absolutely one of my favourite books

I also strongly strongly recommend her other book, Piranesi. It's completely different in some ways, and a LOT shorter, but it has deep magical resonance imo.

Thanks, I Appreciate that, I can now say with conviction Why you might feel that way!
This is an Epic, after I recover from this one I'll need to rest! But I'll keep an eye on her work for sure!

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

1.) I consider most advice, once I saw that the "mods" were both staff librarians I understood where they were coming from!

2.) I'm Impressed with "pretty much" everything I've seen all the mods interact in, I don't see why You would think otherwise?

3.) I've reacted to a few things I've observed, and am picking up on what the "preferred protocol" just might be, but seriously my enthusiasm being new just turned into a gigantic time-sync. Nobody wants or needs that. I don't feel bad about it though, stumbling around in the dark is how you find the light switch! So, I'll determine

Damn, I hate typos, I meant "time sink", duh!

what direction to take and Act on it! By nature I'm not one that speaks a lot! This short interlude has actually been a rarity for me, expect me when you see me, and Thanks for your advice!

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

N.B.
Since the general consensus is that this doesn't belong Here, which was a surprise to me, for my part I'm considering it closed.
Please feel free to move it, delete it, or whatever it is you do with things that don't belong "somewhere"?
I'm going to Uncheck Follow this post as soon as I post this.
I appreciate what input it did get though.

 

[HoldAll]

Thanks, I Appreciate that, I can now say with conviction Why you might feel that way!
This is an Epic, after I recover from this one I'll need to rest! But I'll keep an eye on her work for sure!

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

Damn, I hate typos, I meant "time sink", duh!

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

N.B.
Since the general consensus is that this doesn't belong Here, which was a surprise to me, for my part I'm considering it closed.
Please feel free to move it, delete it, or whatever it is you do with things that don't belong "somewhere"?
I'm going to Uncheck Follow this post as soon as I post this.
I appreciate what input it did get though.

It's just that in your excessive enthusiasm and excitement at finding our forum and the wide range of possibilites afforded by it through communing with other like-minded people, answering intelligent comments and so on, you completely forgot about the subject of your original post and failed to tell about the book you championed when starting this thread. @Vandheer is right, you're all over the place. We usually suggest starting a journal when a member has a tendency to go on rants and idiosyncratic tangents but I don't feel this is the appropriate solution here, so I would like to suggest the following:

1) Stick to the topic of this thread, i.e. the discussion of your book.
2) Use other forums and open threads there if there is a well-defined subject you want to discuss or have questions about.
3) Open a journal in order to keep a log of your thoughts, discoveries, insights, adventures etc. that do not depend on the input of others.

All of this may sound pedantic but we're trying to run a tight ship here and had problems with off-topic or downright crazy ramblings before; it's also unfair to other members when a thread heading sounds interesting but the thread offers little in the way of on-topic information.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I read it roughly when it came out, and also saw the series. Yes, I was amused by the Society of English Magic, and Clarke using all the Swiftian tools to satirise her own invention
The Society thought it bad manners to actually do any magic
The only criticism I have of her work (I read Pirenasi as well) is that she doesn't really do endings, much like Neal Stephenson. When I saw the TV series, I remember thinking "I'm pretty sure the book didn't end as properly as this"

 

[pixel_fortune]

This quote also reminds me of my attempt to study ceremonial magic and tarot while ignoring Crowley, who irritates me:

"It is the contention of Mr Norrell of Hanover-square that everything belonging to John Uskglass must be shaken out of modern magic, as one would shake moths and dust out of an old coat. What does he imagine he will have left? If you get rid of John Uskglass you will be left holding the empty air."

[To be clear, I know it's not true of all magic! Crowley isn't the Raven King. It's just a catchy quote. It's probably more relevant to trying to shake Abrahamic religion out of Western ceremonial magic]

 

[theil]

Hey there!,
I'd like to know if anyone has read the "massive" historical novel about English Magic, "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell"?
It's 782 pages of relatively small print, with "massive" footnotes, sometimes pages long! The author is Susanna Clarke whom I was not familiar with prior to this. I'm "most impressed" with her novel.

My wife just "gifted" me with an "almost new" hardback she and her book club found at a book fair! She knows me inside and out, I Love That Girl !!!
I promptly threw some frankincense resin upon the charcoal and "exorcised" it with due ceremony some days ago, it's a beautiful book with perfect dust jacket. I'm now half way through it and have adapted to the milieu, I "think"! Does anyone have Any Thoughts on this book Pro / Con / IDK?

Read it years ago. It's a good story from what i remember of it with interesting characters.