Laws of Metaphysics? And Indiviality vs onesness

[unification]

Okay, so I have been going a bit crazy after reading a lot of material - from Bible to Gita and Stephen Mace to Dream yoga, experiencing and trying a bit of ...magick/manifestation/ritual/lucid dreaming, trying astral plane/ remote viewing, I reach that hypnogogic state or lights and feel my body rising, but I am too scared and confused to let go and "trust" the process...

The point that fucks me over is, are there any "laws of Metaphysics" or rules of our metaphysical self?

Are there any particularly "compulsory" conditions that must follow each other ??

Like while medium possession, the medium doesnt remember where what happened, it was a blip in their entire - physical and metaphysical reality? (Or was it?)

and as such, lucid dreaming, one does encounter good and bad "spirits/beings" either known and usually family connection, and once you start lucid dreaming and stuff, a lot unknown...

So, for rituals, there aren't "laws" but steps, which help invoke spirits as they are offered a "service", shown the discipline and respect, BUT they can choose people too.

And while reading Gita, I got confused with what so many religions and people have said, we are all part of the one - but we do have Indivialuality, and it is never born can never die... Yet we are part of the one.

What I understand is, there is this energy we all can harness - and the "Gods" are gurus who have figured it all out and thus have more metaphysical power (like a wrestler or a nerd) and are thus specialized in that domain (which basically gives then "knowledge" and using discipline and wisdom they turn it into "enlightenment"... And all.

So, what confuses me and what I would like to practically test or know your thoughts -

1) if we invoke a spirit at the same time, but at two different locations- with the best connected mediums to that spirits - is that possible to have two of them at the same time?

2) if everything is connected to oneness, can I never experience "living the material life and body" of someone else? Or is it that "I have forgotten and once enlightened you do??" But then there is no "individual personalities?"

3) any laws of Metaphysics that must follow or you have experienced - around this topic?


Or any book I should read?

Thank you )

 

[MrWitchyWitch67]

you’re not going crazy, you’re just running five different high-voltage practices at full blast with zero ground wire. that hypnagogic “rising” feeling is normal; the fear is what stops the release. think of it like a rollercoaster: if you grip the bar, you hurt yourself.

to your q’s, quick and dirty:

1) same spirit, two mediums, same time? maybe, but it’s like a bad zoom call split between two rooms. they can project awareness / “check in” but full possession is usually one strong line at a time, otherwise the signal gets muddy. quality drops.

2) oneness vs individuality: you’re a wave that forgot the ocean, not a drop hoping to become every other drop. can you feel others? yeah. live their body fully? basically possession or full merge, which usually dissolves your thread for a bit. enlightenment = holding both at once, not deleting personalities. reincarnation is basically the “try living someone else’s life” mechanism, but you carry your own core.

3) “laws”? not physics, more like rules of thumb: intention first, consent/reciprocity (spirits/helpers choose back, not just you), fear = static / invite chaos, ground after, don’t force. ritual steps are just polite protocol, not magic buttons. book for that exact hypnagogic/fear moment: the tibetan book of the dead (bardo thodol). it literally maps the “lights, rising, don’t panic” part. also maybe just re-read gita chapters 2-3 and ignore the rest for a month. and yeah, if you’re seeing unknown stuff in lucid dreams, just treat them like strangers in a bar: don’t chat, don’t invite in, put up your mental shield (visual wall/intent), and turn away. trust builds when you prove you won’t panic. stop trying to do astral + invocation + possession + dream yoga all in one week. pick one, make it boring and safe first.

you got this, just slow down.

 

[HoldAll]

It's easy to feel crushed by the weight of systems thousands of years old and still venerated by millions today. Immersing yourself completely in ancient wisdom can be a fine trip but don't let it swallow you whole. You need to keep some distance if you want to get something out of it, assess what could be useful for you and stay grounded at all times.

The idea of imposing manmande laws on the roiling chaos out there is certainly seductive; it makes it less scary. Most so-called occult 'laws' are derived from human experience, as if we were the measure of the entire universe, rely on outdated dichotomies, try to enforce symmetries where none exist in the wild, play numbers games with integers, proclaim a need for balance where none is required, or mangle mainstream physics until it fits the naive notions of their originators. It's just whistling in the dark if you ask me.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

You should examine what your assumptions are about magic and the world, because whatever you assume, that is what you will impose on the way you do magic.
You have already assumed that "everything is connected to oneness" - whatever you think that means will influence the magical results you experience.
If you think there are "metaphysical laws", then your magic will be influenced/contaminated by your idea of what such a "law" should be like. And so on.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:05 PM

The idea of imposing manmande laws on the roiling chaos out there is certainly seductive; it makes it less scary. Most so-called occult 'laws' are derived from human experience, as if we were the measure of the entire universe, rely on outdated dichotomies, try to enforce symmetries where none exist in the wild, play numbers games with integers, proclaim a need for balance where none is required, or mangle mainstream physics until it fits the naive notions of their originators. It's just whistling in the dark if you ask me.

They say you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter; there are people so desparate for "laws" that they take some glitter and roll it in turd

 

[HoldAll]

You should examine what your assumptions are about magic and the world, because whatever you assume, that is what you will impose on the way you do magic.
You have already assumed that "everything is connected to oneness" - whatever you think that means will influence the magical results you experience.
If you think there are "metaphysical laws", then your magic will be influenced/contaminated by your idea of what such a "law" should be like. And so on.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:05 PM

They say you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter; there are people so desparate for "laws" that they take some glitter and roll it in turd

Exactly. One of my pet peeves in occultism is the inflationary use of the term 'energy' as if subtle energies behaved just like mundane electricity, which means that they must always come from a definite source (I call it 'the cosmic wall socket' ) instead of e.g. materialising out of thin air, must be of sufficient strength to be able to power a spell, will become all used up after a while like a flat phone battery, etc. One author tried to replace 'energy' with 'information' because it's way less limiting when it comes to describing how magic works; sadly, it didn't catch on. What I'm saying is that thinking in metaphysical 'laws' can be disempowering if you're not careful.

 

[solxyz]

These are all great questions, but there are really too many different questions here to address them all at once, and that seems to be part of your wider problem: that you are trying to grasp too many different things at once. You're taking on a lot and it is going to take time to develop mastery of the various techniques and to digest all the novel perspectives this is opening up. It's ok to take on a number of different skills and theories at the same time, but you should accept that each one has to be practiced and learned on its own terms, and that takes time, and it is going to take even more time before you find a way that this all fits together for you. There is no master key that is going to make it all fall into place for you right away.

 

[unification]

you’re not going crazy, you’re just running five different high-voltage practices at full blast with zero ground wire. that hypnagogic “rising” feeling is normal; the fear is what stops the release. think of it like a rollercoaster: if you grip the bar, you hurt yourself.

to your q’s, quick and dirty:

1) same spirit, two mediums, same time? maybe, but it’s like a bad zoom call split between two rooms. they can project awareness / “check in” but full possession is usually one strong line at a time, otherwise the signal gets muddy. quality drops.

2) oneness vs individuality: you’re a wave that forgot the ocean, not a drop hoping to become every other drop. can you feel others? yeah. live their body fully? basically possession or full merge, which usually dissolves your thread for a bit. enlightenment = holding both at once, not deleting personalities. reincarnation is basically the “try living someone else’s life” mechanism, but you carry your own core.

3) “laws”? not physics, more like rules of thumb: intention first, consent/reciprocity (spirits/helpers choose back, not just you), fear = static / invite chaos, ground after, don’t force. ritual steps are just polite protocol, not magic buttons. book for that exact hypnagogic/fear moment: the tibetan book of the dead (bardo thodol). it literally maps the “lights, rising, don’t panic” part. also maybe just re-read gita chapters 2-3 and ignore the rest for a month. and yeah, if you’re seeing unknown stuff in lucid dreams, just treat them like strangers in a bar: don’t chat, don’t invite in, put up your mental shield (visual wall/intent), and turn away. trust builds when you prove you won’t panic. stop trying to do astral + invocation + possession + dream yoga all in one week. pick one, make it boring and safe first.

you got this, just slow down.

ahh that makes sense, i am still afraid to let go, i understand vibrations have "good or bad energy" and repeating angel or just "om" or mantras and chants help me take further control of the lucid dreaming / night paralysis - and then stephen mace and few others mentioned "make your own language and magic" - eg of a basic one - snapping fingers to take control of dream/self


a couple replies

1. but is it possible to have it present at two locations at the same time, like, i have never heard it happen, if so, then i assume we can ourselves be at two locations at two time -with somewhat limited to complete consciousness -

*basically a law of metaphysics that can be verified - even a single statistical evidence is enough

2. basically possession or full merge - i completely agree... but there is still some... logical gap here.. like i cant explain it in limited words, might make another post over it

3. okay i love those and agree with those laws... or general rules... "except the force" - i think unless you are more powerful, and know your stuff, you can force spirits (demons) and matter, physical matter, since it is just energy...


Tibetan book of the dead has been on my list for a long while, i guess this is a sign...

and thank you

my adhd wanted to explore all avenues and options, now i know what i connect to more - will be doing that )

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:03 PM

It's easy to feel crushed by the weight of systems thousands of years old and still venerated by millions today. Immersing yourself completely in ancient wisdom can be a fine trip but don't let it swallow you whole. You need to keep some distance if you want to get something out of it, assess what could be useful for you and stay grounded at all times.

The idea of imposing manmande laws on the roiling chaos out there is certainly seductive; it makes it less scary. Most so-called occult 'laws' are derived from human experience, as if we were the measure of the entire universe, rely on outdated dichotomies, try to enforce symmetries where none exist in the wild, play numbers games with integers, proclaim a need for balance where none is required, or mangle mainstream physics until it fits the naive notions of their originators. It's just whistling in the dark if you ask me.

yeah, one thing i learnt is to "unlearn everything and question all knowledge, all basics"... only with a free open mind, anything is possible.

its all science, experiment, try, repeat, test independently... until you find exceptions in everything and break everything apart

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:15 PM

These are all great questions, but there are really too many different questions here to address them all at once, and that seems to be part of your wider problem: that you are trying to grasp too many different things at once. You're taking on a lot and it is going to take time to develop mastery of the various techniques and to digest all the novel perspectives this is opening up. It's ok to take on a number of different skills and theories at the same time, but you should accept that each one has to be practiced and learned on its own terms, and that takes time, and it is going to take even more time before you find a way that this all fits together for you. There is no master key that is going to make it all fall into place for you right away.

yesssirrr

this is like, i guess... 4-6 weeks in after my first shroom trip.. questioning and discovering rebirth... For some reason, one of my first lucid dream, after so many years, i was doing a ritual - leading it, holding a candle with a group, towards the full moon, while someone from a lake/river was coming after us and people were trying to hold that person? (sounds like possession exorcism? or i am wrong)... and i was in control???... before even learning about "rituals" - when i was just exploring lucid dreaming - reading books and experimenting with WILD and MILD...

ti guess i will be focusing on lucid dreaming first )

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:21 PM

1. but is it possible to have it present at two locations at the same time, like, i have never heard it happen, if so, then i assume we can ourselves be at two locations at two time -with somewhat limited to complete consciousness

- carlos castaneda - in his book - one of the chapters mentioned how don giovanni was able to be at 2 locations, or multiple, with full consciousness.. i guess that is why i am questioning it more

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:22 PM

or don genero*

 

[darangal]

1) if we invoke a spirit at the same time, but at two different locations- with the best connected mediums to that spirits - is that possible to have two of them at the same time?
Possible in this ideal scenario, provided they have the same spirits, names are good but even a good medium can get tricked by a local entity based in another person, on top of the impact of cultural thoughtforms and the influence of land itself.

2) if everything is connected to oneness, can I never experience "living the material life and body" of someone else? Or is it that "I have forgotten and once enlightened you do??" But then there is no "individual personalities?"
Personality is a performance, a sequence of patterns and behaviors combined with a dogmatic sense of attachment, there is real depth behind personalities for virtually every person you meet but they are rarely well aligned. There is individuality, we are all different, special, practically speaking. Individual personalities do not exist in the thematic perspective of reality being a stream of consciousness, then the personalities are more like a combination of existing forces acting upon a receiver that produces something with no unique traits outside of it's circumstance, a very Buddhist perspective.

3) any laws of Metaphysics that must follow or you have experienced - around this topic?
Unjustified aggression is a big one, it often creates unbalance which can easily be leveraged on a cosmic level, passive aggression has more natural strength to it making the learning of self defense in occult practices relatively straightforward and simple in most cases. That is not to say that someone much more proficient could not bypass this mechanism and trounce a small fry on a whim or for the sake of grabbing a quick bite, however this is often due to (in my experience) an accumulation of bad behavior, economically overextending oneself morally, physically, mentally, emotionally, and facing the consequences of assuming safety in a given situation out of a perceived sense of comfort. I would like to say common sense prevails but that only applies when the muscle in question has not atrophied from lack of use or attention.


Or any book I should read?

I like

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

the Gita is really good too (I would send you a link if I didn't think you read it already), but to be frank provided you have any strong (or weak) spiritual connection to a protective deity or guardian they will naturally guide you towards where you need to be (I specifically mean what book would suit you best for your current situation). Prayer works, really fucking well.

It sounds like you are trying to apply form, or a formal system to the application of metaphysics which can be useful as a learning device. After skill and experience are acquired in metaphysics or any branch of knowledge & skill course corrections are constant for acquiring desired outcomes.

The real world, occult or otherwise, is full of chaos.
Anything that can go wrong often will, roll with the punches, you'll figure it out.

 

[ahathoor]

this is like, i guess... 4-6 weeks in after my first shroom trip..

For your own sake, you need to chill and touch some grass. Take it from someone who knows what you are feeling, you're trying to control Everything, and that's just not f'n possible. You can really hurt yourself, and not in a way that's worth it.

I can answer your first question without hesitation, yes, empirically, the same spirit can be summoned in any number of locations at the same time. What that tells you, you decide.

Third question, "rules". If you mean "rules of nature", nah. Existence is a huge soup of wtf with tiny pockets of differentiabilty (look at a bifurcation diagram to see what I mean.) Kia is limitless and unbounded, and remember what Captain Barbossa said about the Code. If you try to apply the ideas and methods of the natural sciences to, well, all this, you'll just confuse and traumatize yourself with little gain.

If by rules you mean rules of conduct for the wizard to follow... I can give you a few... Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Expecting to receive love can be really dangerous; radiating it is the most productive thing you can possibly do. The power is the mind, the mind is the power. And don't think about Qualia for too long, you'll get a headache.

Second question: "Yes." xD

 

[unification]

1) if we invoke a spirit at the same time, but at two different locations- with the best connected mediums to that spirits - is that possible to have two of them at the same time?
Possible in this ideal scenario, provided they have the same spirits, names are good but even a good medium can get tricked by a local entity based in another person, on top of the impact of cultural thoughtforms and the influence of land itself.

2) if everything is connected to oneness, can I never experience "living the material life and body" of someone else? Or is it that "I have forgotten and once enlightened you do??" But then there is no "individual personalities?"
Personality is a performance, a sequence of patterns and behaviors combined with a dogmatic sense of attachment, there is real depth behind personalities for virtually every person you meet but they are rarely well aligned. There is individuality, we are all different, special, practically speaking. Individual personalities do not exist in the thematic perspective of reality being a stream of consciousness, then the personalities are more like a combination of existing forces acting upon a receiver that produces something with no unique traits outside of it's circumstance, a very Buddhist perspective.

3) any laws of Metaphysics that must follow or you have experienced - around this topic?
Unjustified aggression is a big one, it often creates unbalance which can easily be leveraged on a cosmic level, passive aggression has more natural strength to it making the learning of self defense in occult practices relatively straightforward and simple in most cases. That is not to say that someone much more proficient could not bypass this mechanism and trounce a small fry on a whim or for the sake of grabbing a quick bite, however this is often due to (in my experience) an accumulation of bad behavior, economically overextending oneself morally, physically, mentally, emotionally, and facing the consequences of assuming safety in a given situation out of a perceived sense of comfort. I would like to say common sense prevails but that only applies when the muscle in question has not atrophied from lack of use or attention.


Or any book I should read?

I like

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

the Gita is really good too (I would send you a link if I didn't think you read it already), but to be frank provided you have any strong (or weak) spiritual connection to a protective deity or guardian they will naturally guide you towards where you need to be (I specifically mean what book would suit you best for your current situation). Prayer works, really fucking well.

It sounds like you are trying to apply form, or a formal system to the application of metaphysics which can be useful as a learning device. After skill and experience are acquired in metaphysics or any branch of knowledge & skill course corrections are constant for acquiring desired outcomes.

The real world, occult or otherwise, is full of chaos.
Anything that can go wrong often will, roll with the punches, you'll figure it out.

Thank you so much for the detailed answer. This does add a couple points to ponder about individuality.

About aggression - so many cultures say nothing is "good or bad" just "is" and has a action reaction or "yin yang" and the Buddhist version of karma.

I have been constantly confused about violence. Justified violence, to restore balance seems more and more fair to me... As this seems less and less of a "hell heaven earth" or "loop" but rather a game lol

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:15 PM

For your own sake, you need to chill and touch some grass. Take it from someone who knows what you are feeling, you're trying to control Everything, and that's just not f'n possible. You can really hurt yourself, and not in a way that's worth it.

I can answer your first question without hesitation, yes, empirically, the same spirit can be summoned in any number of locations at the same time. What that tells you, you decide.

Third question, "rules". If you mean "rules of nature", nah. Existence is a huge soup of wtf with tiny pockets of differentiabilty (look at a bifurcation diagram to see what I mean.) Kia is limitless and unbounded, and remember what Captain Barbossa said about the Code. If you try to apply the ideas and methods of the natural sciences to, well, all this, you'll just confuse and traumatize yourself with little gain.

If by rules you mean rules of conduct for the wizard to follow... I can give you a few... Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Expecting to receive love can be really dangerous; radiating it is the most productive thing you can possibly do. The power is the mind, the mind is the power. And don't think about Qualia for too long, you'll get a headache.

Second question: "Yes." xD

Lol yeah, I am taking break, gotta focus on my job for a whil ...thanks a lottt for the answers...

I would love to chat more about the second question lol

 

[Nembra]

Okay, so I have been going a bit crazy after reading a lot of material - from Bible to Gita and Stephen Mace to Dream yoga, experiencing and trying a bit of ...magick/manifestation/ritual/lucid dreaming, trying astral plane/ remote viewing, I reach that hypnogogic state or lights and feel my body rising, but I am too scared and confused to let go and "trust" the process...

The point that fucks me over is, are there any "laws of Metaphysics" or rules of our metaphysical self?

Are there any particularly "compulsory" conditions that must follow each other ??

Like while medium possession, the medium doesnt remember where what happened, it was a blip in their entire - physical and metaphysical reality? (Or was it?)

and as such, lucid dreaming, one does encounter good and bad "spirits/beings" either known and usually family connection, and once you start lucid dreaming and stuff, a lot unknown...

So, for rituals, there aren't "laws" but steps, which help invoke spirits as they are offered a "service", shown the discipline and respect, BUT they can choose people too.

And while reading Gita, I got confused with what so many religions and people have said, we are all part of the one - but we do have Indivialuality, and it is never born can never die... Yet we are part of the one.

What I understand is, there is this energy we all can harness - and the "Gods" are gurus who have figured it all out and thus have more metaphysical power (like a wrestler or a nerd) and are thus specialized in that domain (which basically gives then "knowledge" and using discipline and wisdom they turn it into "enlightenment"... And all.

So, what confuses me and what I would like to practically test or know your thoughts -

1) if we invoke a spirit at the same time, but at two different locations- with the best connected mediums to that spirits - is that possible to have two of them at the same time?

2) if everything is connected to oneness, can I never experience "living the material life and body" of someone else? Or is it that "I have forgotten and once enlightened you do??" But then there is no "individual personalities?"

3) any laws of Metaphysics that must follow or you have experienced - around this topic?


Or any book I should read?

Thank you )

1. It's two manifestations of the same one. Their minds are dispersed, they don't have any inherent linearity or chronology. Even humans with their minds tied to physical processes have been able to manage this feat on certain exceptional occasions.

2. What even is an individual personality is not easily answerable. That being said, a finger was never the whole hand and a thumb cannot feel what a pinky feels. This "connectedness" clause is vague enough to allow all kinds of interpretations.

Such laws, or rather theories, are possible to formulate, but this kind of opens the possibility for people to be gravely and provably wrong about their own beliefs. Not that many occultists are open to such a confrontation.

By the way, energy is just some kind of metaphor, and a very bastardised and overused one at that. Also gods being gurus sounds like something a god would say to you, notably falsely.