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I am new to all information relating to magic, and from what I gather, belief plays an important role. I suspect that I have many of them. Is there any point to or any benefit derived from practicing magic without belief? How do I go about identifying and dismantling each belief in a practical and systematic step-by-step formula?
This is actually an enormous topic that isn't much touched upon because most occultists know very little outside of memetic tropes passed down by other people of questionable esoteric merit.
Beliefs aren't just beliefs. They are thoughtforms on the individual level, and they can hook one up to egregoric 'streams'. These can be very limiting factors. These are real energies that impact one's entire complex.
Introspection is a must. Altered states of consciousness are useful for ferreting out beliefs. Again, these are real energies and can be treated and dispensed with as such.
Ideally, one's beliefs should come about not from books, orders, or the emotionalized pressures of egregores (ie, religion) but from direct, clean perceptions of higher dimensions and working out an individualistic practical regimen.
The way I look at it, belief is how you access the mechanism of magic. You have to alter your viewpoint at such a fundamental level to match up with your successful outcome, that the interface that you use for this is belief. The key is that you are trying to reprogramme your unconscious mind, where the changes occur, but the intent has to begin in the conscious mind.
As they say in chaos magic, it doesn't matter what the belief is, as long as you believe it. Why else would such a wide range of different magical systems have equal amounts of success?
The way I look at it, belief is how you access the mechanism of magic. You have to alter your viewpoint at such a fundamental level to match up with your successful outcome, that the interface that you use for this is belief. The key is that you are trying to reprogramme your unconscious mind, where the changes occur, but the intent has to begin in the conscious mind.
As they say in chaos magic, it doesn't matter what the belief is, as long as you believe it. Why else would such a wide range of different magical systems have equal amounts of success?
That makes sense. It’s really the belief and intention that matter most, not the specific system. If you truly believe, it seems anything can work.
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I'm also new to magic, so I get where you're coming from. I think personal conviction definitely helps with maintaining focus and intention, but even if your belief isn’t perfect, results can still happen.
As for dismantling beliefs, I guess the best way is to start paying attention to what thoughts come up, question if they’re true, and then try to replace doubts with more positive ones. It’s a gradual process, but I think awareness and practice are key.
Introspection is a must. Altered states of consciousness are useful for ferreting out beliefs. Again, these are real energies and can be treated and dispensed with as such.
I was already under the assumption that introspection was necessary for identifying beliefs, but what about replacing them? Will old beliefs simply fall away with enough investigation or spiritual experiences? Or is there a formula to cut them out precisely and intentionally? If these are real energies, can they be dealt with by a third-party, or must this be done internally by each individual affected?
As for dismantling beliefs, I guess the best way is to start paying attention to what thoughts come up, question if they’re true, and then try to replace doubts with more positive ones. It’s a gradual process, but I think awareness and practice are key.
This is the bit I'm stuck on. If beliefs are real thoughtform energies, is it really as simple as paying attention to thoughts/questioning them, using mental reframes and positive affirmations? If so, it sounds like a grueling and very long process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to me.
The way I look at it, belief is how you access the mechanism of magic. You have to alter your viewpoint at such a fundamental level to match up with your successful outcome, that the interface that you use for this is belief. The key is that you are trying to reprogramme your unconscious mind, where the changes occur, but the intent has to begin in the conscious mind.
As they say in chaos magic, it doesn't matter what the belief is, as long as you believe it. Why else would such a wide range of different magical systems have equal amounts of success?
So basically, use magic in such a way that the mechanism/system aligns with my current beliefs? You are probably correct and I thank you for your insight; I am only disappointed by how restrictive that sounds.
So basically, use magic in such a way that the mechanism/system aligns with my current beliefs? You are probably correct and I thank you for your insight; I am only disappointed by how restrictive that sounds.
Not really - the point of chaos magic is that you manipulate your belief system to match up with the successful outcome of your intent. The simplest kind of belief is that you are a magician who can achieve your goals. You have to get a bit meta about all this
This Is is the bit I'm stuck on. If beliefs are real thoughtform energies, is it really as simple as paying attention to thoughts/questioning them, using mental reframes and positive affirmations? If so, it sounds like a grueling and very long process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to me.
What I mean is that instead of just temporarily changing thoughts, the goal is to actively rewire your core beliefs so they align with your desired outcome. While CBT focuses on temporary thought changes, the approach is about transforming beliefs at a deeper level to support manifesting what you want.
This is an interesting topic, and yes, it is real. Rather than disappearing into metaphysical fog, I’m going to answer the OP directly and offer something that may actually be useful in practice.
Changing your beliefs sounds simple until you actually try to do it. Then shit gets real very quickly. So try this:
Write the following questions and answer them before each ritual attempt in a journal:
What do I keep assuming is true?
What do I expect the ritual to do before I even begin?
What outcome feels impossible to me?
What thoughts keep repeating every time I go to practice?
Am I actually willing to be proven wrong?
If I am proven wrong, what does that threaten in me? My identity? My certainty? My self-image?
Am I willing to do the work without clinging to a specific outcome one way or the other?
Then test it. Pick a ritual. Do it. Journal everything. Keep going. I do not care if you do 25 rituals and think nothing happened. Keep testing. Try other rituals. Keep going. Something in you wants to find out, that is a great place to start. Just dont give up.
At some point, maybe something happens that you cannot explain away so easily. Good. That is the point. You want direct experience to push against your existing beliefs hard enough that they either break, bend, or reveal themselves more clearly.
Then you get to choose. You choose what you believe. Not a book. Not a current. Not a forum poster trying to sound profound. You.
That is true freedom, true power.
This is not an overnight thing. It takes time, It takes experience. You cannot think your way through all of it. At some point, you have to do the work and let experience push back.
Yes! There's so much to gain from the occult without belief! At the core of all religious, spiritual, and occult frameworks (as much as they can be differentiated) is a set of psychological functions that everyone can and should benefit from.
Better still, there are plenty of moral and logical questions and exercises to keep us sharp and give us food for thought. There's historical puzzles we can solve and try to solve to understand the truth of our collective history.
The occult is just a long lineage of human inquiry into the question of us, our being, our existence. Even if our predecessors found nothing factually true, they often revealed things about who they were, their fears, their desires and through their works we can connect to another human being centuries/millennia dead!
But if you're curious about what is directly beneficial and not just intellectually stimulating, consider my two favorite activities as an Atheist Occultist
Manifesting
The most directly useful form of magick is the various forms of manifesting. There are real studies that show simply saying out loud that you want to do a thing, increases your chances of doing that thing. This is a concept I came across in "Atomic Habits" by James Clear, but mundane tasks like lighting a candle or changing into "do the thing clothes" is enough to set your mind to the "thing doing" mode.
Consider, you want to read more books. So, to manifest this goal you change into your reading robes, enter your reading space, and light a candle and maybe an incense. In this example the ritual triggers or habit stacks start with changing into ritual clothes and lighting the ritual candles. Now your mind is set to acomplish your goal.
Maybe you need a bit more, maybe you need to meditate. That's what I have to do. I read 2 hours a day. 1 hour is for intellectual persuits so I meditate before hand to clear my mind and help me focus on the text at hand.
Mindfulness
Mindfulness appears in nearly every occult practice in some form. This is the skill of reflection, meditation, contemplation, etc. This is such a secularly useful idea that I'm pretty sure half the global income of Buddhist teachers comes from Tech CEO's paying them to teach meditation to over worked programmers.
I've found it's hard to explain the exact hows and whys about meditation, but I haven't read much of the academic psychology work on why it's good. I simply practiced it. For me it's the connection to constant awareness that it so valuable to an atheist or non-believer. We become hyper aware of this being all and hopefully we become appreciative of the good experiences we have. Mindfullness is how I focus on who I want to be in my one shot at life.
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I'm currently working on a longer guide to the occult for an atheist type thing. I'm manifesting it as a book, but I tend to ramble. My weekend project is to set up a mdbooks website and start filling it out. I have a lot of this written out in various quality blog posts on my website.
This is why, along with Alan Chapman's "Advanced Magick for Beginners" I always recommend Stanislawski's "An Actor Prepares" which is basically the bible of method acting. If you read it from an occult point of view, it's mind blowing.
I am new to all information relating to magic, and from what I gather, belief plays an important role. I suspect that I have many of them. Is there any point to or any benefit derived from practicing magic without belief? How do I go about identifying and dismantling each belief in a practical and systematic step-by-step formula?
Approach things such as entities and magick and such as if they are real, but not assuming. Whether they are or not, the benefit is the same. Whether an entity manifesting is a symbolic manifestation of the mind or a literal concious entity doesnt matter, the symbolic meaning is the same. Just approach as if it is real, until proven wrong, and if not, the benefit stays the same.
I was already under the assumption that introspection was necessary for identifying beliefs, but what about replacing them? Will old beliefs simply fall away with enough investigation or spiritual experiences? Or is there a formula to cut them out precisely and intentionally? If these are real energies, can they be dealt with by a third-party, or must this be done internally by each individual affected?
Let's examine a hypothetical person and examine how a limiting belief can actually operate. Let's take something on many peoples' lips- Karma
-There's a constellation of beliefs (and a belief itself is a concatenation of cognition, emotions, and other things that are hard to place into language ) about karma one can absorb as a function of one's culture. These can impact one's 'subconscious' even if one thinks they are dismissive of it- think carefully about that.
-There's a constellation of beliefs about karma that arrive into one's self based on distorted subjective filters one overlays on their personal experiences. These are often emotional energetic knots in one's system.
-Then there is the collectivist energy one hooks into by nurturing a belief in karma. Collectivism in general on the energetic level is not good. It's the lowest common denominator, whatever seeming boost it gives a person. Religion here is a huge culprit, and practitioners get imprisoned in those energies.
-Then there are real, actual beings who exploit beliefs and disempower you and keep you trapped in a limited form of existence.
Is it any wonder there are so few liberated humans?
Visualization and affirmation done consistently can work for some things and has some practical value, but it's often more surface. But fully removing disempowering beliefs/energies can really only be accomplished by energywork -esp done in deep states of consciousness, while also continually crystallizing a true 'I'.
This. Additionally, applied relativism concerning your convictions and identity may help. The chaos magic approach to achieving this would be paradigm shifting, also called 'random belief', where you adopt another set of convictions (religious, political, etc.) and/or identities (different gender, nationality, etc.) for a limited period of time. The aim is to make the mind more pliable so that you become capable of holding just about any conviction because it's just another arbitrary interchangeable belief, nothing special.
It was a revelation for me, making me realise that I could have been an entirely different person had I been born into different circumstances, met different persons, had different relationships, etc. Once you're able to feel this realisation deep down in your guts (and not just intellectually!), consciously adopting any belief becomes dead easy. As a result, I'm always 100% convinced that my operations will work, and if I fail, it feels like an unimportant freak accident because I don't require success as a proof for my pig-headed belief anymore.
Ooh, that's interesting. This is the sort of thing I like to experiment with. Practicing magic with disinterest... that's not a million miles from sigil magic and trying to forget it after casting.
I always think belief is a funny thing. We only seem to believe in things that aren't definitely real. Like aliens and fairies and gods. I don't think I've ever believed in my microwave or my shoes or my table.
At the SPR, one guy said "When people ask me if I believe in ESP, I ask them 'Do you believe in marmelade?'"
When it comes to belief, I usually quote the Thomas Theorem: "When someone believes a thing to be real, the consequences of that thing are real"
So you end up with things, like money, that are real, but don't actually exist.
