Lucifer: Truly evil and should be avoided or a victim of propaganda

[AEJOTYX]

I would like to know what are your ecperiences with lucifer or what knowledge do you have that might piint to a much different look of Lucifer than mainstream knowledge accepts

 

[r4zorenigma]

I view Lucifer as a representation of human consciousness, self-actualization, and navigating the material world. A personal experience on navigating the material world, I was sitting at a airport drinking coffee, waiting for my flight. I started noticing people moving robotically. It sounds weird I know, but at this point, it seemed like I was on the outside looking in. I felt calm, observant, I'm not going to type the whole gnosis that I received during this time, but I felt like there was something else going on the outside. To me, Lucifer represents that exact spark of self awareness and realizing that Lucifer can represent many faces. (Which he has).
Its not about who's right or who's wrong. Lucifer represents going your own way. Liberation. Finding your own path to enlightenment. I don't see him as an evil demon with big horns. I see him as someone completely different.....and isn't that the point.

I'm curious as to your experience--

1. What makes you think you reached out to a specific being called Lucifer?
-- of many thousands of possible ideas and thoughtforms floating around that can fit the name;; ie: calling out the name "Jose" in a Latin American concert and expecting to connect with a specific Jose out of a crowd of 75,000 people.

2. What differentiates your representation of human consciousness , self actualization and navigating the material world with your own spirit-- rather than this said being that you believe represents the same thing?

3. Why would this person represent human consciousness, if they are not human? nor physical?

4. What made you believe you connected with this 'representation'? Were there methods involved, did you simply imagine, and felt an effect, etc?

5. Do you feel you could connect to other 'representation' of different things? What are some other ones you connected to in a similar manner?


Sidenote: The reason why people who run the world run it now, is because humans are so influenced and suggestible.. Many humans have an external locus of control.. They also feel they don't have enough control.. they're constantly giving meaning to things that otherwise have no meaning.. ie: belief in this evil guy named Satanor Lucifer.. as a consciousness or otherwise.. its simply giving into the same principles they use to control people like the ones commenting in this thread.. gullible, weak minded individuals..

Religion is mythology.. its a means of control.. If you study enough you see where the origins of all these things came from.. most things are plagiarised, edited, given new meaning.. its been like that since the beginning of time.

To believe Lucifer or Satan is real is to say.. I believe the constructs you elite have created to control us sheep.. we will continue to give into your ideas.

 

[HoldAll]

What is

of Lucifer at this point. That he's a hunk with abs and eyeliner? That he is the emperor of Hell? There are several threads about him now. Please use Search for enlightening perspectives by all types of members.

What @Yazata said. Here are only two of several Lucifer threads according to which Lucifer is God, Satan (or not), Nebuchadnezzar II, or rather the focus of people's projections:

[Opinion] - The Lucifer Deception: How a 4th-Century "Typo" Created a Fake Deity (The Sovereign Truth vs. The Myth)

Are you worshipping a King, or are you worshipping a Latin translation error? Let's look at the Hebrew bones of the myth. "I’ve been reading through the UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) here about Lucifer, and it’s fascinating how much of the modern 'Enlightened Lucifer' archetype is actually...

wizardforums.com

Have you ever thought that Lucifer is god?

"It is a gnostic perspective because my beliefs are biased toward it, but what if it is true? If you read some of the gnostic gospels, especially the one where Jesus reveals how was the creation of the world, technically the demiurge is the serpent of the Tree of Knowledge. Moreover, it turns...

wizardforums.com

 

[MorganBlack]

As I never tire of saying, magic is a mercurial and liminal field. The rigid subject-object dichotomies that we are used to employing in our mundane lives don't work well here.

Damn, that is so well said, solxyz!

It is so hard to get us all to this because human brains have a really hard time thinking about any subject (or aspect of the universe) that venns over more than one domain or dominant.

Right right! Totally agreed here. The daimon is all of it.

The ritual you use, or lack thereof, your DNA, the stories you enage with and interanize, how you hold yourself and what you hold in your hands in ritual, your history, your culture and its expectations, your body - and the trauma you hold in your body (which I think used to be considered part of your 'Fate' see Jung's Red Book here) - and some other consciousness we are all part of which I don't totally understand. I use Bernardo Kastrup's Idealism / Neoplatonism as a framework for that part.

So I just stick with a modified sort of "Low" Neoplatonism and say "the daimons are always half us." And from my personal experience and that of other magicians you can absolutely get "cooler" (less dangerous, less chaotic) manifestations if you internalize Neoplatonism. For me, that is also Marian Catholicism as infinite love can also work here, but for me only after many years of engagement with Haitian Vodou, or for people who grew up in one of the more traditional Catholic cultures.

I have to add:

The Daimonic is not a solved ontology. Harpur’s whole move in Daimonic Reality is to refuse both reductive psychologism (“it’s just your subconscious” ) and brain-dead literalism (“it’s exactly and totally this literal being from a grimoire, or a literal pagan god.”).

The daimon belongs to the Imaginal - real, but not physical. It is autonomous, but not separable from the soul that perceives it. Neoplatonism works here - daimones are intermediaries in the chain of being, administrators of Fate, messengers, sometimes personal guardians.

Ritual is participation in a field where the boundary between “us” and “them” is porous.

I would love to hear your opinions on Bernardo Kastrup’s Analytic Idealism. I dislike his medical language but I love the idea that even the laws of physics we operate under are a "dreamed-up reality."

Anyway, I feel we Magicians can also use Kastrupas a bridge to a modern audience without all the other usual "esoteric" filler paste. If mind is fundamental, then spirits are not less real because they are mental. They can be understood as agencies ("alters," he calls them in medical language, but ugh!), or intentional patterns within universal consciousness.

I think each religion, each story, and each grimiore is a distinct Dreamed-up shared reality, with some more useful for sorcery than others and some more useful for Mysticism than others. I will never deny people their pagan realties or Hellscape dystopian realities they want to live in. If that is their Fate, so be it.

But there are still issues. Kastrup’s idealism says mind is fundamental, but it doesn’t say every evocation is a distinct autonomous alter. We still need discernment. The fact that something is mental does not mean it is arbitrary. The spirit is a shapeshifter, but not a blank screen. It pours itself into your mythos and ritual, but a good mythos and ritual are already responsive to its contours. Ignore those contours and you get ego projection wearing a RHP or LHP mask, not the daimon.

I like to say "the daimon is always half us" - but that is an operative heuristic that aligns with strict Neoplatonism, the daimon is not just your shadow. It can be a real Other that also corresponds to your Fate and Character. The work is not to decide it is all in your head, nor to hand over your sovereignty and fall down and woship them as pagan gods. But we need better wasy of talking about becoming capable of relationship (being in right raltion to) with an autonomous-yet-entangled other. That is very much the liminal daimonic middle.

And if daimones are administrators of Fate, then the process we call "magic" can very much be seen as standing up to Fate. In Iamblichus and Proclus, theurgy aligns you with higher causes. You do not defeat Fate by ego, you change your position in the chain. You collaborate with the daimon to renegotiate your portion of it. And to those more timid folks, that is it not alwasy fun. Be not afraid.

I think that's why an internalized Neoplatonism might produce “cooler” manifestations, and what kinds of materia you use in ritual have a huge effect on the manifestations. It's not because you mastered a technique, or learned the "correct" esoteric jibber-jabber, but because you changed the kind of container you are. The daimon has more and better to work with.

I think.

In the end I am not trying to be "correct" here. I just want more grimoire magicians around for company and comparing notes. That's all. Spirit evocation was missing a solid macro-level cosmovision for its practice. We got either too Christian mythic literalism, or too much neopagan mythic literalism, or LHP theatre-kid silliness.

And to add this:

The materia is part of that cosmovision made physical. The herbs, the cool water vs,. hot alcohol, the flame, litrugy, the tempo of the whole rite, the incense, the ink, the timing, the breath, the circle - these aren't just props. They are the spirit's body-language. They tell the daimon what kind of body it can wear in your working, and they tell you what kind of container you are becoming. So the same spirit might come as a king, a beggar, a holing, poltergeist activity, banging, smell, wraps on the windows, door, peronally apocolyptic visions, a Lovecratian being - as with the GV, or a strange calm in the room, depending on what you've built and what you bring to the rite.

That's why I feel we needs more tradtional magicans comparing notes , to better map the contours of the field an an invitation to future pratitioners. We need a practical macro-level cosmovision - I just made one by stripping away the modern hot takes, recent back on of the tradional Western Mystism tradition, , Neoplatonism, then find what i think are much better modern atriculations, like Harpur's imaginal, Kastrup's idealism, to talk about the messy actual work of pirit conjurong without collapsing into literalism , or using "psychodrama" as a coward's excuse for LARPing. More company for the journey , please.

Have heart, be not afraid everybody.

 

[Mannimarco]

I would like to know what are your ecperiences with lucifer or what knowledge do you have that might piint to a much different look of Lucifer than mainstream knowledge accepts

Well, neither actually.
I have worked with luci in the past, and i truly like his philosophy. However, he reeeeally didn't feel the same. So much so that he pretended to work with me for months, all the while putting energy blockages and other forms of sabotage into my energy body. It took years to figure it all out, and many thousands of dollars, to get it all cleansed and healed. I still don't know what his problem is. He has joined in several curse wars that I've been in, always against me.

I don't know if that's mainstream knowledge of lucifer or not, but its my experience with him. 0/10.

 

[Nembra]

Well, neither actually.
I have worked with luci in the past, and i truly like his philosophy. However, he reeeeally didn't feel the same. So much so that he pretended to work with me for months, all the while putting energy blockages and other forms of sabotage into my energy body. It took years to figure it all out, and many thousands of dollars, to get it all cleansed and healed. I still don't know what his problem is. He has joined in several curse wars that I've been in, always against me.

I don't know if that's mainstream knowledge of lucifer or not, but its my experience with him. 0/10.

He might be disagreeing with what you think is his philosophy.

 

[WonderFire]

He is a half remembered form of several (more or less) similar dieties, some of which plug into the Trickster, who is a very real, independent being that has been with humanity almost since beginning of our species. This would mainly be Mitra/Mithras. Other form are Eros the Elder, Horus the Elder, Phanes Protogonos etc. They are actually prototypes of a monotheistic god and are one of the main currents underlying both Judaism and Christianity.
The Church has massive daddy issues about this, hence you get Lucifer mythology.