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My problem Dionysus.

lumineth Realm Lord

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So, earlier, I was reading this book on the ancient Greek world. The book said Dionysus is a "Transgressive" deity. In that he dissolves social boundaries through drunkenness.

I interpreted that as to mean he can help me make connections and find friends. Especially in a party environment. So, I've debated on calling on him. Especially considering that the book says that snakes are one of his sacred animals. Considering that snake dream I had.

The problem, though, is when I consider this pragmatically.
1. Alcohol is a depressant. I already have enough psychology BS to worry about.
2. Drunkenness leading to people getting along is an ideal. Drunkenness leading to people getting into fights is a reality.
3. I don't know about in ancient Greece, but alcohol tends to be a sign of wealth and elitism. Just watch any rap video.
4. When I go out, I go alone. So, I have to remain sober to get home. Gods, I need friends.
5. I am autistic, and can't stand the sensation of drinking. The taste, smell, and sensation of swallowing it. My body seems to refuse any alcohol. It's a gag reflex.

What do you think?
 

Morell

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Alcohol is inhibitor of inhibitors in the brain. Small dose can probably work as described, which might be what they meant by being drunk, there are levels of drunkness. With proper self control it can be useful, but from my experience it is not worth it. Clear head is better to me.
 

Asteriskos

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So, earlier, I was reading this book on the ancient Greek world. The book said Dionysus is a "Transgressive" deity. In that he dissolves social boundaries through drunkenness.

I interpreted that as to mean he can help me make connections and find friends. Especially in a party environment. So, I've debated on calling on him. Especially considering that the book says that snakes are one of his sacred animals. Considering that snake dream I had.

The problem, though, is when I consider this pragmatically.
1. Alcohol is a depressant. I already have enough psychology BS to worry about.
2. Drunkenness leading to people getting along is an ideal. Drunkenness leading to people getting into fights is a reality.
3. I don't know about in ancient Greece, but alcohol tends to be a sign of wealth and elitism. Just watch any rap video.
4. When I go out, I go alone. So, I have to remain sober to get home. Gods, I need friends.
5. I am autistic, and can't stand the sensation of drinking. The taste, smell, and sensation of swallowing it. My body seems to refuse any alcohol. It's a gag reflex.

What do you think?
Point #3 on your list seems somewhat short sighted, look at the "winos" lying in the gutter in any inner city!
The other points you list there should be self evident to you. Drunkenness is anathema to any magician, et al. I go to a pub which is frequented by other magical practitioners, I usually have a double Bourbon on the Rocks, nothing more, and I make sure to have eaten some decent food prior to that as well. That hasn't impaired me "magically" up to this point of my life, any More Would though, so I Don't! Seems to me that you've given Yourself some good advice, and don't force yourself into alcoholism, it's Bad for Business, and your Health! Like many things in life alcohol and drugs are Very Insidious. Once they get hold of you, you're in for a Real Fight as well! Point #5 on your list would be enough reason for Me!
 

Adelina

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Association of Dionysus with wine is a very late invention. All Ancient Traditions mention that Gods enjoy special divine drink which isn't available to conmon mortals. This totally excludes such vulgar drinks as wine, etc. Need to consider that some people are interested in blocking others from getting knowledge and power, so they invent all this kind of nonsence that Gods drink wine and so should the practitioner in order to be able to form connection to these Gods. Hah, no.

Wine and similar drinks make people open to the influence of Spirits from Lower Worlds, these Spirits are attracted to it like to a magnet. Sometimes wine and such drink are given to those Spirits as offerings, but practitioners themselves are not advised to drink those themselves.
 

Yazata

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special divine drink which isn't available to conmon mortals
From something I was reading recently this even is simply rain, or the heavenly waters.
Once alcohol was discovered this then turned into that divine liquid which dazzled man and made him feel he could do more than he could.
 

Asteriskos

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From something I was reading recently this even is simply rain, or the heavenly waters.
Once alcohol was discovered this then turned into that divine liquid which dazzled man and made him feel he could do more than he could.
"Nectar and Ambrosia" is the sustenance of the "gods", giving it to Mortals was a No No, just like Fire! :cool:🤘
 

HoldAll

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There are numerous examples for what were originally gods of ancient Middle Eastern tribes which then became included in the pantheons of the Greco-Roman world, were subsequently condemned by the Christian Church as demons, only to be 'rescued' by modern philosophers and psychologists until finally being worshipped and adored as these really cool, edgy entities by goth occult counterculture. The result of this process is that you get an image of this deity that is full of contradictions that self-styled 'experts' love to bicker about on reddit.

Therefore I think you could do worse than checking out Nietzsche's concept of the Apollonian and Dionysian which makes infinitely more sense than all the Greek legends about this god (didn't any of his ancient worshippers in Antiquity think about hangovers?). Nietzsche leaves the alcohol aspect completely out of the picture and focusses more on the hedonistic, chaotic and orgiastic side instead, and that's probably what Dionysus really stands for:

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Ziran

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The book said Dionysus is a "Transgressive" deity. In that he dissolves social boundaries through drunkenness.

IOW, neither progressive nor regressive. Progress forward-or-backward, inner-or-outer, higher-or-lower, ... etc, is irrelevant. It is beyond the realm where progress is significant. Hence, drunkenness. I know it best as a manifestation of, "Tohu Va'Vohu", "Chaos-and-Void", from Genesis 1.

Practical examples:

<------------------------------->

"She can be a lot of fun at parties, but, only in small quantities"

or

"Nice place to visit, but, I wouldn't want to live there."

is

"Drunkenness"

or

"transgressive"
 

voidcat

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Alcohol is a depressant. I already have enough psychology BS to worry about.
What has been written is good advice. Quick note some safety advice from a person who cant use substances with the occult: I'm on meds that are respiratory depressants. If you are on psych meds like I am they also could be respiratory depressants. Add alcohol in the mix and I literally could stop breathing because it too is a respiratory depressant.

If you do choose to drink keep in mind the meds you are on if you are on any. If it says alcohol is not good to drink with it you want to look into why. If you choose to drink after that I would first talk to the psychiatrist or even call the pharmacy as pharmacists are well versed in med interactions to get advice on how to drink without dying. Like how long off the meds do you need to be without alcohol increasing your risk of dying. Or if small amounts are ok. Weigh the pros and cons.

You can't make friends if you dead.
Post automatically merged:

If you want a social deity for partying...Bastet is associated with celebration, music and dancing. She's also associated with sexuality and fertility if you looking for a partner not just friends. She's also associated with cats which many people say act like autistics. You might could call on her for help with socialization. That's who I worship though she's not for everyone she can be pretty direct. Like a cat she can be a bit in your face.
 
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So, earlier, I was reading this book on the ancient Greek world. The book said Dionysus is a "Transgressive" deity. In that he dissolves social boundaries through drunkenness.

I interpreted that as to mean he can help me make connections and find friends. Especially in a party environment. So, I've debated on calling on him. Especially considering that the book says that snakes are one of his sacred animals. Considering that snake dream I had.

The problem, though, is when I consider this pragmatically.
1. Alcohol is a depressant. I already have enough psychology BS to worry about.
2. Drunkenness leading to people getting along is an ideal. Drunkenness leading to people getting into fights is a reality.
3. I don't know about in ancient Greece, but alcohol tends to be a sign of wealth and elitism. Just watch any rap video.
4. When I go out, I go alone. So, I have to remain sober to get home. Gods, I need friends.
5. I am autistic, and can't stand the sensation of drinking. The taste, smell, and sensation of swallowing it. My body seems to refuse any alcohol. It's a gag reflex.

What do you think?
I am pretty anti-alcohol and psychoactive in general when it concerns spiritual practice. But that is a personal thing that I recognize is not always the case. However, most of the time it is. I recognize psychoactives have a long history with spiritual practice and religion but it is important to remember these were in guided religious settings similar to going to a therapist, and their availability and potency werent as dramatic as they are today.

With this being said, there is an often looked over fact towards Greek practice and religion that people like to gloss over in order to justify turning sex and drugs into their religion. And its that Greece's excessive culture was its downfall and why their civilization degenerated so quickly. It is important to remember that looking at the behaviors of every day libertine religious practitioners, even if they are more ancient, is not magic. You are just practicing a mundane religion, the only difference is its dead. So looking at an exoteric ancient religious practice as a way to inform magical practice, which requires more discipline and fortitude than every day religion, is similar to taking communion at a mass and calling it magic.

Now whats at the core of the Dionysian revelry is ecstatic experience, and this can definitely be useful for magic and help, but using substances and sex ritualistically is highly problematic as they are addictive behaviors and more often than not filter people from spiritual experience. And this is exactly what happened to the Greeks and why their philosophers spent so much energy trying to break from those religious expressions to save their culture.
 

silencewaits

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So, earlier, I was reading this book on the ancient Greek world. The book said Dionysus is a "Transgressive" deity. In that he dissolves social boundaries through drunkenness.

I interpreted that as to mean he can help me make connections and find friends. Especially in a party environment. So, I've debated on calling on him. Especially considering that the book says that snakes are one of his sacred animals. Considering that snake dream I had.

The problem, though, is when I consider this pragmatically.
1. Alcohol is a depressant. I already have enough psychology BS to worry about.
2. Drunkenness leading to people getting along is an ideal. Drunkenness leading to people getting into fights is a reality.
3. I don't know about in ancient Greece, but alcohol tends to be a sign of wealth and elitism. Just watch any rap video.
4. When I go out, I go alone. So, I have to remain sober to get home. Gods, I need friends.
5. I am autistic, and can't stand the sensation of drinking. The taste, smell, and sensation of swallowing it. My body seems to refuse any alcohol. It's a gag reflex.

What do you think?

Dionysos embodies a wealth of experiences. He is not simply the god of drunkenness--he is the spirit of the wine. He is transgression, liberation, madness, joy, and ecstasy. Dionysos is also a god of rebirth, and immortality; he is Zagreus, the Thrice-Born.

A group of young people finish off bottles of alcohol and smoke some x, y, or z. They start playing music, doing stupid things, engage in affectionate acts with their partners--or a stranger. The next day they go to church. The young man who ran into the lake after drenching himself in alcohol and setting himself on fire is the pastor's son. The young lady who was very openly making out with another young lady is the church pianist. Very musically inclined. Their little Saturday night revelry makes their Sunday morning (and the rest of the charade) endurable. Eventually, in the next generation, the binds that keep the previous generations in thrall will loosen. Why is this? They have experienced life at the boundary of accepted behavior, so-called civilization. These experiences can be a source of joy, inspiration, etc.

It's a state of consciousness which can be accessed using drugs, sex, and rock and roll--but not alone. It loosens inhibitions.

Association of Dionysus with wine is a very late invention. All Ancient Traditions mention that Gods enjoy special divine drink which isn't available to conmon mortals. This totally excludes such vulgar drinks as wine, etc. Need to consider that some people are interested in blocking others from getting knowledge and power, so they invent all this kind of nonsence that Gods drink wine and so should the practitioner in order to be able to form connection to these Gods. Hah, no.

This is simply untrue; if you have sources for that claim I would love to see them. Wine was not considered a vulgar drink, beer however was. Drinking wine was a part of connecting with Dionysos. It featured explicitly in various aspects of his cultus.

I am pretty anti-alcohol and psychoactive in general when it concerns spiritual practice. But that is a personal thing that I recognize is not always the case. However, most of the time it is. I recognize psychoactives have a long history with spiritual practice and religion but it is important to remember these were in guided religious settings similar to going to a therapist, and their availability and potency werent as dramatic as they are today.

With this being said, there is an often looked over fact towards Greek practice and religion that people like to gloss over in order to justify turning sex and drugs into their religion. And its that Greece's excessive culture was its downfall and why their civilization degenerated so quickly. It is important to remember that looking at the behaviors of every day libertine religious practitioners, even if they are more ancient, is not magic. You are just practicing a mundane religion, the only difference is its dead. So looking at an exoteric ancient religious practice as a way to inform magical practice, which requires more discipline and fortitude than every day religion, is similar to taking communion at a mass and calling it magic.

Now whats at the core of the Dionysian revelry is ecstatic experience, and this can definitely be useful for magic and help, but using substances and sex ritualistically is highly problematic as they are addictive behaviors and more often than not filter people from spiritual experience. And this is exactly what happened to the Greeks and why their philosophers spent so much energy trying to break from those religious expressions to save their culture.

They were conquered by the Romans, who absorbed a lot of their culture and ideas. Classical ideas and culture form the basis of Western civilization (when there was one). So I'm not sure what you mean by their civilization degenerating so quickly. Besides, there's nothing wrong with sex and 'libations', unless the person is weak and prone to addiction--uncontrolled. They can be used to great effect in both solitary and ceremonial workings. They're not necessary, of course, but still very potent when used right. It is better for the person(s) conducting the rite or working to remain in control, everyone else can let loose. It's actually better that way.

Of course, I'm more prone to trapeze with the Green Man than Dionysos; I still used to chug wine straight from the bottle. ;)
 
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