Ongoing work with Bune everything I've done, still waiting on a sign. How did she show up for you?

[kvzlx]

I've been building a relationship with Bune, the 26th spirit and a Duke, usually associated with the dead and moving them, but also strongly connected with prosperity, wealth and opening roads. I wanted to lay out exactly what I did and ask people who've actually worked with her.

What I did:

I went out to a quiet spot in nature because I wanted to be away from the house for this one.

For offerings, I used incense, a green candle, an orange cut into four pieces, and a libation of aguardiente, a local cane spirit. I drew her seal by hand instead of printing it because that felt more personal and more like my own work. I also played her enn while I sat with everything.

The first time was a petition. When I didn't get a clear response, I went back later to reconnect rather than starting a completely new petition. Same place, same general offerings, just continuing the same thread.

Where I'm at now:

I'm watching for something I would personally read as a sign of acceptance. Beforehand, I set a few specific possibilities for myself: a particular bird appearing at my window, a vivid or lucid dream, or clear movement in the matters I asked about.

So far, nothing has happened that feels completely unmistakable. I'm still watching.

What I'm curious about:

1. For those who've worked with Bune, or with Dukes generally, how did acceptance actually show up for you? Was it subtle, obvious, through dreams, or through real-world events?
2. How long did it take before you noticed anything? I don't want to be impatient, but I also don't want to keep waiting on something that isn't going anywhere.
3. Were there any offerings she seemed to respond especially well to? Is there anything you would add or change?
4. And be honest, did I miss an important step, or is "wait and watch" basically the answer at this point?

I'm not looking for guarantees. I'm mainly interested in real experiences from people who've actually done the work.

 

[r4zorenigma]

I've worked with Bune maybe 13 years ago.. or so.. While Bune is most likely a fictional character.. I remember having some effects based on the magick i imparted on my subconscious based on the attributes given.. Bune is good for wisdom. He's like a wise old man.. Think an old chemistry teacher that found a likeness to you and wanted to teach you about Forex trading.. something you didnt know he knew about.. because you gave him some weed to help him sleep after finding out he deals with insomnia..

However, I must stress.. most all of these beings are fictional creations. The guy who wrote Ars Goetia just copied msot of his work from another fictional writer before him, some dutch guy who was a Physician and had nothing to do with Occult himself despite having family members interested in studying the occult.. Its just a buncha quackery and sadly western magick treats it like its real ancient wisdom.. Its embarassing..

Instead of summoning someone elses fiction, why not create your own demons and give them the attributes you want and then remove any ugly/harmful elements out of them? It would make it way more effective.

 

[kvzlx]

I've worked with Bune maybe 13 years ago.. or so.. While Bune is most likely a fictional character.. I remember having some effects based on the magick i imparted on my subconscious based on the attributes given.. Bune is good for wisdom. He's like a wise old man.. Think an old chemistry teacher that found a likeness to you and wanted to teach you about Forex trading.. something you didnt know he knew about.. because you gave him some weed to help him sleep after finding out he deals with insomnia..

However, I must stress.. most all of these beings are fictional creations. The guy who wrote Ars Goetia just copied msot of his work from another fictional writer before him, some dutch guy who was a Physician and had nothing to do with Occult himself despite having family members interested in studying the occult.. Its just a buncha quackery and sadly western magick treats it like its real ancient wisdom.. Its embarassing..

Instead of summoning someone elses fiction, why not create your own demons and give them the attributes you want and then remove any ugly/harmful elements out of them? It would make it way more effective.

Appreciate the actual experience. The "wise old man" read is interesting, because the older sources lean that way too. Alongside wealth and the dead, Bune is also associated with wisdom and eloquence in speech, so a teacher-like figure makes sense.

On the "fictional" side of it, I'm actually closer to your view than it might seem. My whole approach is about separating what's genuinely old from what got added later, and yeah, the Goetia is a 17th-century compilation that leans heavily on Weyer (1577).

Where I land a little differently is on the practical side. Whether Bune is a discrete being or a structured part of my own mind, what I'm really testing is the result. And by your own account, you got effects too, so we're probably not that far apart.

The "build your own and strip out the harmful bits" route, like servitors or egregores, is completely valid. I just see it as a different tool. What draws me to the traditional names is the shared symbolic framework and the centuries of attributes that come with them.

One quick follow-up, because it's exactly what I'm trying to calibrate: when the "wise old man" showed up for you, how did it actually come through? Was it a dream, intrusive thoughts, a sudden shift in how you were thinking about a problem, or something else?

I'm mainly trying to get better at distinguishing a meaningful signal from me just reading into things.

 

[ewiz]

I've been building a relationship with Bune, the 26th spirit and a Duke, usually associated with the dead and moving them, but also strongly connected with prosperity, wealth and opening roads. I wanted to lay out exactly what I did and ask people who've actually worked with her.

What I did:

I went out to a quiet spot in nature because I wanted to be away from the house for this one.

For offerings, I used incense, a green candle, an orange cut into four pieces, and a libation of aguardiente, a local cane spirit. I drew her seal by hand instead of printing it because that felt more personal and more like my own work. I also played her enn while I sat with everything.

The first time was a petition. When I didn't get a clear response, I went back later to reconnect rather than starting a completely new petition. Same place, same general offerings, just continuing the same thread.

Where I'm at now:

I'm watching for something I would personally read as a sign of acceptance. Beforehand, I set a few specific possibilities for myself: a particular bird appearing at my window, a vivid or lucid dream, or clear movement in the matters I asked about.

So far, nothing has happened that feels completely unmistakable. I'm still watching.

What I'm curious about:

1. For those who've worked with Bune, or with Dukes generally, how did acceptance actually show up for you? Was it subtle, obvious, through dreams, or through real-world events?
2. How long did it take before you noticed anything? I don't want to be impatient, but I also don't want to keep waiting on something that isn't going anywhere.
3. Were there any offerings she seemed to respond especially well to? Is there anything you would add or change?
4. And be honest, did I miss an important step, or is "wait and watch" basically the answer at this point?

I'm not looking for guarantees. I'm mainly interested in real experiences from people who've actually done the work.

I've only summoned Bune once back in 2009, using only a candle, gas station incense sticks, a paper seal colored copper with glittery eye makeup, a masking tape circle and triangle, and the first Goetia conjuration from memory, which ended up turning into a freeform conjuration. I didn't use any offerings.

I knew the spirit had arrived because the atmosphere totally changed, the lighting outside of the circle seemed darker than dark, and the whole thing took on a dreamlike quality. During my petition, I saw an unmistakable phantom appear in the triangle briefly, it looked like a head of an alligator or crocodile, or I suppose a dragon. The only communication I recieved was mental impressions, but after stating my goal for exactly $5000 by a specific deadline, in exchange for a later candle offering, I got a strong sense of agreement. The feeling you might get when someone shakes their head yes in response to your question.

A little over a week later, I think 11 days, when I was helping my dad move some boxes in his room a $5000 Hell Bank Note fell out and it had a tear in it. I took this as a positive sign at that moment, and others I spoke with did as well. However I didn't end up getting the money by the deadline. Later I interpreted this manifestation of Hell Money almost as a joke by the spirit, like "here's your money lol." And now I think the tear was meant as a sign that the spirit was essentially breaking the deal, perhaps because something had changed and it wouldn't have been possible anymore.

It's hard to say for sure as I decided not to call the spirit again after this. I did keep the bill though, to burn as an offering should I call it again, alongside the candle I promised but failed to deliver in exchange for results (I didn't get exactly what I asked for, but in a way I sorta did.) Every time this spirit comes up there seems to be a brief influence in my life, positive and related to money. I think when you decide to open the door to any of these things, they stay with you and become a part of your story.

I've never felt anything bad from this spirit, just a sort of unseriousness almost like a trickster quality after the fact, but this is just my experience. I didn't notice a gender, and a lot of the modern aproaches with offerings treat the spirit as a female. Perhaps this is because the spirit is more welcoming when you arrive bearing gifts, or perhaps more seductive. I don't necessarily have any suggestions, except maybe meditate on the meaning of the spirit's described appearance from Goetia. This is one spirit where the description of it's appearance symbolically lines up with it's powers almost exactly. And spending more time outside of ritual studying and focusing on the spirit might help keep it's attention.

Look forward to your progress.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:25 PM

I f

I've only summoned Bune once back in 2009, using only a candle, gas station incense sticks, a paper seal colored copper with glittery eye makeup, a masking tape circle and triangle, and the first Goetia conjuration from memory, which ended up turning into a freeform conjuration. I didn't use any offerings.

I knew the spirit had arrived because the atmosphere totally changed, the lighting outside of the circle seemed darker than dark, and the whole thing took on a dreamlike quality. During my petition, I saw an unmistakable phantom appear in the triangle briefly, it looked like a head of an alligator or crocodile, or I suppose a dragon. The only communication I recieved was mental impressions, but after stating my goal for exactly $5000 by a specific deadline, in exchange for a later candle offering, I got a strong sense of agreement. The feeling you might get when someone shakes their head yes in response to your question.

A little over a week later, I think 11 days, when I was helping my dad move some boxes in his room a $5000 Hell Bank Note fell out and it had a tear in it. I took this as a positive sign at that moment, and others I spoke with did as well. However I didn't end up getting the money by the deadline. Later I interpreted this manifestation of Hell Money almost as a joke by the spirit, like "here's your money lol." And now I think the tear was meant as a sign that the spirit was essentially breaking the deal, perhaps because something had changed and it wouldn't have been possible anymore.

It's hard to say for sure as I decided not to call the spirit again after this. I did keep the bill though, to burn as an offering should I call it again, alongside the candle I promised but failed to deliver in exchange for results (I didn't get exactly what I asked for, but in a way I sorta did.) Every time this spirit comes up there seems to be a brief influence in my life, positive and related to money. I think when you decide to open the door to any of these things, they stay with you and become a part of your story.

I've never felt anything bad from this spirit, just a sort of unseriousness almost like a trickster quality after the fact, but this is just my experience. I didn't notice a gender, and a lot of the modern aproaches with offerings treat the spirit as a female. Perhaps this is because the spirit is more welcoming when you arrive bearing gifts, or perhaps more seductive. I don't necessarily have any suggestions, except maybe meditate on the meaning of the spirit's described appearance from Goetia. This is one spirit where the description of it's appearance symbolically lines up with it's powers almost exactly. And spending more time outside of ritual studying and focusing on the spirit might help keep it's attention.

Look forward to your progress.

*I failed to mention I don't come from an Asian family with Hell Money practices, and my dad is white. He had no idea what the hell bank note was, and had never seen it before.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:28 PM

I'm watching for something I would personally read as a sign of acceptance. Beforehand, I set a few specific possibilities for myself: a particular bird appearing at my window, a vivid or lucid dream, or clear movement in the matters I asked about.

Assuming that you spoke these intentions to the spirit, thereby solidifying what you're willing to accept as a sign that it's working for you, then I would say it's best to wait for one of your signs. If you didn't include a specific time constraint, then it's hard to say for how long. Sometimes, this sort of work can take months to show signs of movement, and other times the result might show up within the hour after the spirit departs.

What I have found helpful is being very specific in terms of what you will accept as a success, including a specific timeframe. And if you have made predictions of particular omens you might be looking for, these should be spoken aloud to the spirit during the ritual as well. I never used to do this, but it's so easy to look for patterns and see them everywhere. If I see a cloud, maybe I think it looks like a dragon, and then maybe I take that as sign the spirit is working. But without the clear prediction that I was looking out for a cloud beforehand, I think it's best to be more careful, and document the synchronicity as an interesting coincidence, but not count it towards my success/failure.

And if you didn't tell the spirit you were looking to see a bird, or a revalation through a dream, you shouldn't assume that it knows you want that. At the same time it's best to be very clear, you don't want the spirit thinking you will accept a dream as a full success, job done lol. My experience with this spirit makes me think they might be happy to do this and find it funny.

 

[Faria]

how did acceptance actually show up for you? Was it subtle, obvious, through dreams, or through real-world events?

As a terrifying monster, strange beyond my wildest imagination. For years I thought it was some sort of fossil invertebrate, but later discovered what a cowrie shell creature would look like without its shell. It was that, which I interpret as a clue to the identity of the spirit.

How long did it take before you noticed anything? I don't want to be impatient, but I also don't want to keep waiting on something that isn't going anywhere.

My goal was not really a one-off thing but rather to be surrounded by riches for my whole life: gold, precious gems, treasures. Not to be rich, but to have riches. That all began about then and hasn't quit. I can pinpoint the exact moment, when I said fuck all the non-essential bills and poured everything into my workshop. This following years of my mother telling me how I was basically a bum with no career. The very day I completed my first project, I had planned to show her the result as proof that I finally did something worthwhile, but decided to wait until morning. She died that same night, and I have kept at my career ever since.

Were there any offerings she seemed to respond especially well to? Is there anything you would add or change?

I don't make offerings to spirits, and I can't find any similarity between what you're doing and what I do, so as far as "important steps," I don't see anything here. How would you approach this if there were no "enns" and no offerings? And maybe that works for you, for others, not saying it's "wrong," but it's a completely different protocol.

 

[kvzlx]

I've only summoned Bune once back in 2009, using only a candle, gas station incense sticks, a paper seal colored copper with glittery eye makeup, a masking tape circle and triangle, and the first Goetia conjuration from memory, which ended up turning into a freeform conjuration. I didn't use any offerings.

I knew the spirit had arrived because the atmosphere totally changed, the lighting outside of the circle seemed darker than dark, and the whole thing took on a dreamlike quality. During my petition, I saw an unmistakable phantom appear in the triangle briefly, it looked like a head of an alligator or crocodile, or I suppose a dragon. The only communication I recieved was mental impressions, but after stating my goal for exactly $5000 by a specific deadline, in exchange for a later candle offering, I got a strong sense of agreement. The feeling you might get when someone shakes their head yes in response to your question.

A little over a week later, I think 11 days, when I was helping my dad move some boxes in his room a $5000 Hell Bank Note fell out and it had a tear in it. I took this as a positive sign at that moment, and others I spoke with did as well. However I didn't end up getting the money by the deadline. Later I interpreted this manifestation of Hell Money almost as a joke by the spirit, like "here's your money lol." And now I think the tear was meant as a sign that the spirit was essentially breaking the deal, perhaps because something had changed and it wouldn't have been possible anymore.

It's hard to say for sure as I decided not to call the spirit again after this. I did keep the bill though, to burn as an offering should I call it again, alongside the candle I promised but failed to deliver in exchange for results (I didn't get exactly what I asked for, but in a way I sorta did.) Every time this spirit comes up there seems to be a brief influence in my life, positive and related to money. I think when you decide to open the door to any of these things, they stay with you and become a part of your story.

I've never felt anything bad from this spirit, just a sort of unseriousness almost like a trickster quality after the fact, but this is just my experience. I didn't notice a gender, and a lot of the modern aproaches with offerings treat the spirit as a female. Perhaps this is because the spirit is more welcoming when you arrive bearing gifts, or perhaps more seductive. I don't necessarily have any suggestions, except maybe meditate on the meaning of the spirit's described appearance from Goetia. This is one spirit where the description of it's appearance symbolically lines up with it's powers almost exactly. And spending more time outside of ritual studying and focusing on the spirit might help keep it's attention.

Look forward to your progress.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 5:25 PM

I f

*I failed to mention I don't come from an Asian family with Hell Money practices, and my dad is white. He had no idea what the hell bank note was, and had never seen it before.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:28 PM

Assuming that you spoke these intentions to the spirit, thereby solidifying what you're willing to accept as a sign that it's working for you, then I would say it's best to wait for one of your signs. If you didn't include a specific time constraint, then it's hard to say for how long. Sometimes, this sort of work can take months to show signs of movement, and other times the result might show up within the hour after the spirit departs.

What I have found helpful is being very specific in terms of what you will accept as a success, including a specific timeframe. And if you have made predictions of particular omens you might be looking for, these should be spoken aloud to the spirit during the ritual as well. I never used to do this, but it's so easy to look for patterns and see them everywhere. If I see a cloud, maybe I think it looks like a dragon, and then maybe I take that as sign the spirit is working. But without the clear prediction that I was looking out for a cloud beforehand, I think it's best to be more careful, and document the synchronicity as an interesting coincidence, but not count it towards my success/failure.

And if you didn't tell the spirit you were looking to see a bird, or a revalation through a dream, you shouldn't assume that it knows you want that. At the same time it's best to be very clear, you don't want the spirit thinking you will accept a dream as a full success, job done lol. My experience with this spirit makes me think they might be happy to do this and find it funny.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for, and I appreciate you laying it out in that much detail.

A few things jump out. The crocodile/dragon head in the triangle is wild, because Bune's Goetia appearance is literally a three-headed dragon (dog, gryphon, man), so you got a form that lines up. That makes your point about her appearance matching her powers even sharper; she's one of the few where that really holds. The $5,000 Hell Bank Note falling out of your dad's boxes (white, never seen one before) is genuinely uncanny, not the kind of thing you can wave away. The tear as a broken deal is a grim little detail, and "here's your money lol" fits the trickster quality you describe. On gender, I default to "she" because that's where modern practice leans, but you're right that the source is neutral. Maybe it's just a mask she's comfortable wearing when you show up with gifts.

On the signs, I should be precise, because I actually did the thing you're pointing at. I spoke them to her out loud, both times, and I gave a window. I told her my confirmation of the alliance would come one of two ways: a hummingbird at my office window (the one that looks out over the valley and the hills), flying there and watching me through the glass, or a lucid dream to seal it, with the condition that the real marker is that I can recall it in detail when I wake. And I gave a timeframe, "today or within these next few days." So she knows exactly what I'm watching for, and roughly when.

Which is why the quiet is a bit pointed. That window has basically passed with nothing I can honestly count. I've had a couple of near-misses (some birds, an odd coincidence or two), but none matched the exact sign I named, so I didn't count them, same discipline you mentioned about not seeing dragons in every cloud.

So here's where I'd really value your read. When you've been that specific, set a deadline, and it passes with no clean sign, what do you actually do? Keep waiting past the window, or go back and re-open the conversation? I already went back once to reaffirm, not a new petition, just "I'm still here, still serious, still holding up my end," but I genuinely can't tell whether returning again reads as respectful persistence or as nagging her. How do you personally tell "she's working on it, be patient" from "this line's gone quiet, time to re-initiate"?

Appreciate all of this. The advice about meditating on her described appearance and sitting with her outside ritual especially. That one I'm taking.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:09 PM

As a terrifying monster, strange beyond my wildest imagination. For years I thought it was some sort of fossil invertebrate, but later discovered what a cowrie shell creature would look like without its shell. It was that, which I interpret as a clue to the identity of the spirit.


My goal was not really a one-off thing but rather to be surrounded by riches for my whole life: gold, precious gems, treasures. Not to be rich, but to have riches. That all began about then and hasn't quit. I can pinpoint the exact moment, when I said fuck all the non-essential bills and poured everything into my workshop. This following years of my mother telling me how I was basically a bum with no career. The very day I completed my first project, I had planned to show her the result as proof that I finally did something worthwhile, but decided to wait until morning. She died that same night, and I have kept at my career ever since.


I don't make offerings to spirits, and I can't find any similarity between what you're doing and what I do, so as far as "important steps," I don't see anything here. How would you approach this if there were no "enns" and no offerings? And maybe that works for you, for others, not saying it's "wrong," but it's a completely different protocol.

Faria, thank you for sharing that, especially the part about your mother. That is a heavy thing to have sitting under the whole story, and I don't take it lightly that you put it here.

The monster that turned out to be a cowrie creature without its shell is fascinating, and it fits something that came up earlier in this thread: with these spirits the appearance often seems to encode the identity and the power, if you sit with it long enough. Reading the form as a clue instead of just a scare is a sharp way to work.

And your framing of the goal really landed with me. Not to be rich, but to have riches, for a lifetime, not a one-off. That turns the whole thing into a standing relationship with a direction in your life rather than a single payout. The moment you describe, pouring everything into the workshop instead of the non-essential bills, sounds less like a petition and more like a decision, and the spirit met the decision.

On your actual question, which is the good one: honestly, the enn and the offerings aren't the load-bearing part for me either. The enn is modern (it traces to one author, S. Connolly, which came up in another thread of mine), and I use it as a focusing device, not because I think it is ancient or required. The offerings are my own devotional layer; I already had a personal practice with the land before I brought Bune into it, and the old Goetia doesn't prescribe offerings at all. So if you stripped both away, what is left is close to what you are describing: a clear, specific intention, the seal drawn and held, and then committing my actual life and work to the direction I asked for. In my own framing the offering that matters most isn't the orange or the liquor, it is the daily follow-through on the work. Bune opens roads that need you to walk them, so the real protocol is the action.

Which makes me genuinely curious about yours. Without offerings or enns, how do you make and hold contact? Direct petition, internal or meditative work, sigil and intent and then let it go? I would like to hear how your protocol actually runs, because it sounds like you arrived somewhere real by a very different road.

 

[Faria]

I would like to hear how your protocol actually runs, because it sounds like you arrived somewhere real by a very different road.

I just follow the instructions in the book. Bathing, make the circle, call the spirit, display the pentacle, give the charges, send it home, prayers of thanksgiving, write it all down. I don't generally look for any sort of lasting relationship or recurring communication.

 

[r4zorenigma]

Appreciate the actual experience. The "wise old man" read is interesting, because the older sources lean that way too. Alongside wealth and the dead, Bune is also associated with wisdom and eloquence in speech, so a teacher-like figure makes sense.

On the "fictional" side of it, I'm actually closer to your view than it might seem. My whole approach is about separating what's genuinely old from what got added later, and yeah, the Goetia is a 17th-century compilation that leans heavily on Weyer (1577).

Where I land a little differently is on the practical side. Whether Bune is a discrete being or a structured part of my own mind, what I'm really testing is the result. And by your own account, you got effects too, so we're probably not that far apart.

The "build your own and strip out the harmful bits" route, like servitors or egregores, is completely valid. I just see it as a different tool. What draws me to the traditional names is the shared symbolic framework and the centuries of attributes that come with them.

One quick follow-up, because it's exactly what I'm trying to calibrate: when the "wise old man" showed up for you, how did it actually come through? Was it a dream, intrusive thoughts, a sudden shift in how you were thinking about a problem, or something else?

I'm mainly trying to get better at distinguishing a meaningful signal from me just reading into things.

You got all the right ideas and it brings me joy to see that. To answer your question, a lot of my earlier work I didn't necessarily wait to see signs of the spirit right away as there can be many false positives there.. though I would meditate to understand what ideas or images came to mind.. More or less, I would see and notice things happen in the days and weeks following that are uncanny.

With the last working I had with Bune, I saw him appear in the obsidian mirror through the incense. It almost seemed as if he took on the signature of the incense/possessed the smoke and manifested through it before slipping into the obsidian mirror.. where I remember seeing a ghastly figure turn into a woman of sorts. I don't rememebr too many details simply because I got so many experiences of all types that it can be hard to recall.. I just remember more than anything that Bune is basically a nerdy old man , withery and nervous-like but likes to take on the form of a woman..

I am trying to recall what I was working on with Bune last.. but its so many moons ago.. I think possibly something related to money..

Sorry for the vagueness. I hope this helps in some way.

 

[Dona]

I just follow the instructions in the book. Bathing, make the circle, call the spirit, display the pentacle, give the charges, send it home, prayers of thanksgiving, write it all down. I don't generally look for any sort of lasting relationship or recurring communication.

Hey Faria! In your opinion, which books have been the most helpful for you in your magical practice?
I think we come from quite different backgrounds, but you have much more experience than I do, and you previously advised me to focus on practice and to put visions aside for the time being. So I was wondering which books you would personally recommend based on your own experience.

 

[ewiz]

So here's where I'd really value your read. When you've been that specific, set a deadline, and it passes with no clean sign, what do you actually do? Keep waiting past the window, or go back and re-open the conversation? I already went back once to reaffirm, not a new petition, just "I'm still here, still serious, still holding up my end," but I genuinely can't tell whether returning again reads as respectful persistence or as nagging her. How do you personally tell "she's working on it, be patient" from "this line's gone quiet, time to re-initiate"?

Appreciate all of this. The advice about meditating on her described appearance and sitting with her outside ritual especially. That one I'm taking.

This is definitely something you'll have to try to determine by inuition, I think. It's important to be careful with how you interpret signs, as it sounds like you are. Oddly enough, I just saw a tattoo of a hummingbird on my partner's phone when I started my reply. This synchronicity might be interesting which is why I mention it. But taking it as a sign I feel is probably a mistake, and people have a tendancy to do that. If it is it would be more likely to be one for me and not for you, and even then it's unlikley to be more than a coincidence.

It always depends on the goal and the method, but with my work I usually try to give it at least a month before calling something a failure and revisiting it. Whether I would recall the same spirit for the same goal, or if I would move on and do something entirely different, really all depends on how I feel about it intuitively.

Did you recieve any sort of confirmation during the ritual that the spirit arrived and acknowledged your request?

It's difficult to say what that might look like for you, especially since I don't follow the same methods that you did, same as Faria. In this instance, I was basically trying to attempt the ritual as described in the Goetia, just with an incomplete toolset and not quite to the letter, honestly with a moderate level of effort and not to the best of my ability.

The way that contact looks is different for a lot of people. For me, in almost every instance of spirit contact, communication occurs through mental impressions. I recieve feelings of the meaning behind words, and not necessarily words themselves or of images; this is distinct enough to allow two-way conversation. Although sometimes there are clear images as well as clear mental dialogue in a voice distinct from my own. Visual and auditory manifestations are few and far between for me, and I haven't experienced a completely auditory communication - but I am aware that this is something people experience. Sometimes, I recieve dreams and impressions along the way, sometimes the synchronicities I've been warning to be careful about, which I interpret to be communication from the spirit, and sometimes nothing.

It is rare for me to not experience what I percieve to be communication, but there have been times where all I experience are the atmospheric changes I associate with the arrival of the spirit. In those cases I would state my intentions, and wait like I said previously roughly a month before deciding what to do. It was from one of these workings that I had my fastest results, almost immediately after closing the ritual. The others are sorta hit and miss, maybe 50% success rate, I really haven't bothered to calculate it that precisely. I just document it, and continue on to the next page.

You've been doing a lot of work transcibing the grimoires lately. I think it might be worthwhile for you to attempt following the book as closely as possible, if you determine there isn't any movement towards your goal, and want to revisit things.

 

[kvzlx]

This is definitely something you'll have to try to determine by inuition, I think. It's important to be careful with how you interpret signs, as it sounds like you are. Oddly enough, I just saw a tattoo of a hummingbird on my partner's phone when I started my reply. This synchronicity might be interesting which is why I mention it. But taking it as a sign I feel is probably a mistake, and people have a tendancy to do that. If it is it would be more likely to be one for me and not for you, and even then it's unlikley to be more than a coincidence.

It always depends on the goal and the method, but with my work I usually try to give it at least a month before calling something a failure and revisiting it. Whether I would recall the same spirit for the same goal, or if I would move on and do something entirely different, really all depends on how I feel about it intuitively.

Did you recieve any sort of confirmation during the ritual that the spirit arrived and acknowledged your request?

It's difficult to say what that might look like for you, especially since I don't follow the same methods that you did, same as Faria. In this instance, I was basically trying to attempt the ritual as described in the Goetia, just with an incomplete toolset and not quite to the letter, honestly with a moderate level of effort and not to the best of my ability.

The way that contact looks is different for a lot of people. For me, in almost every instance of spirit contact, communication occurs through mental impressions. I recieve feelings of the meaning behind words, and not necessarily words themselves or of images; this is distinct enough to allow two-way conversation. Although sometimes there are clear images as well as clear mental dialogue in a voice distinct from my own. Visual and auditory manifestations are few and far between for me, and I haven't experienced a completely auditory communication - but I am aware that this is something people experience. Sometimes, I recieve dreams and impressions along the way, sometimes the synchronicities I've been warning to be careful about, which I interpret to be communication from the spirit, and sometimes nothing.

It is rare for me to not experience what I percieve to be communication, but there have been times where all I experience are the atmospheric changes I associate with the arrival of the spirit. In those cases I would state my intentions, and wait like I said previously roughly a month before deciding what to do. It was from one of these workings that I had my fastest results, almost immediately after closing the ritual. The others are sorta hit and miss, maybe 50% success rate, I really haven't bothered to calculate it that precisely. I just document it, and continue on to the next page.

You've been doing a lot of work transcibing the grimoires lately. I think it might be worthwhile for you to attempt following the book as closely as possible, if you determine there isn't any movement towards your goal, and want to revisit things.

ewiz, this is genuinely useful, thank you.

The mental-impressions thing is the piece I most needed. You describing contact mostly as the meaning behind words rather than words or images, with the occasional clear image or a voice not your own, gives me a much better yardstick for what I should even be looking for. I think I've been over-weighting the dramatic stuff (the bird, the dream) and under-weighting that quieter channel.

The hummingbird tattoo on your partner's phone right as you started writing is a great example, precisely because you didn't take it as a sign. That restraint is exactly the muscle I'm trying to build. Left unchecked I'd have jumped on it. Agreed that it's a coincidence, and if it pointed anywhere it would be at you, not me.

To answer your question honestly: no, I didn't get a clear in-ritual confirmation that she arrived and acknowledged the request. I got the settled, slightly charged atmosphere you'd expect, but nothing I could point to as a distinct "yes." And saying that out loud, I think that might be the actual answer to my own question. I've been waiting on an external sign after the fact when I never got the acknowledgment during the rite itself. That reframes it a lot.

The one-month window is a good anchor too. I've been sitting at about a week and getting antsy, which is probably just impatience dressed up as discernment.

And your last point lands harder than you might think. I've spent months transcribing these grimoires, the actual Goetia, Weyer, the rest, so I have the documentary side down cold. But going from the page to the practice is its own skill, and honestly having that much information can get in the way. I catch myself treating it like a study, layering my own devotional material on top, second-guessing every step. Running the rite as close to the book as possible, stripped back, is probably the correction I need. If this window closes with nothing, that is what I will do next: the Goetia procedure as written, to the letter, and see whether doing less but doing it properly changes the result. Thanks for pointing at that.

 

[ewiz]

ewiz, this is genuinely useful, thank you.

The mental-impressions thing is the piece I most needed. You describing contact mostly as the meaning behind words rather than words or images, with the occasional clear image or a voice not your own, gives me a much better yardstick for what I should even be looking for. I think I've been over-weighting the dramatic stuff (the bird, the dream) and under-weighting that quieter channel.

The hummingbird tattoo on your partner's phone right as you started writing is a great example, precisely because you didn't take it as a sign. That restraint is exactly the muscle I'm trying to build. Left unchecked I'd have jumped on it. Agreed that it's a coincidence, and if it pointed anywhere it would be at you, not me.

To answer your question honestly: no, I didn't get a clear in-ritual confirmation that she arrived and acknowledged the request. I got the settled, slightly charged atmosphere you'd expect, but nothing I could point to as a distinct "yes." And saying that out loud, I think that might be the actual answer to my own question. I've been waiting on an external sign after the fact when I never got the acknowledgment during the rite itself. That reframes it a lot.

The one-month window is a good anchor too. I've been sitting at about a week and getting antsy, which is probably just impatience dressed up as discernment.

And your last point lands harder than you might think. I've spent months transcribing these grimoires, the actual Goetia, Weyer, the rest, so I have the documentary side down cold. But going from the page to the practice is its own skill, and honestly having that much information can get in the way. I catch myself treating it like a study, layering my own devotional material on top, second-guessing every step. Running the rite as close to the book as possible, stripped back, is probably the correction I need. If this window closes with nothing, that is what I will do next: the Goetia procedure as written, to the letter, and see whether doing less but doing it properly changes the result. Thanks for pointing at that.

You're approaching this seriously, and I think that's the most important thing. In time you'll figure out what will work best for you. Some people seem to find the method you're trying with offerings and enns works best for them, others like those in this thread might follow the book to the letter, or opt for a dark mirror like Poke Runyon.

Personally, I've developed something piecemeal by half following the books and most often don't even keep to that, I end up doing something more freeform. That has worked well for me, but having never followed these other 3 methods (strictly by the book, dark mirror, demonolatry), even after a very long time practicing, I can't really say if one of them might suit me better. But I think all of these, and more, can produce comparable results.

I think that a lot of it boils down to learning how to trust yourself and your intuition, and that just comes with practice. I genuinely look forward to seeing your future updates, and reading any other input you recieve here.

 

[Faria]

Hey Faria! In your opinion, which books have been the most helpful for you in your magical practice?
So I was wondering which books you would personally recommend based on your own experience.

Hm, you want to end up where I'm at you begin by memorizing as much of Dantes Inferno as you can while keeping a copy of The Satanic Bible on your toilet and spending your free time copying out the entire Neconomicon by hand like it tells you to do. Maybe dont really do that, but I mean to say that what inspires me might not hit you the same way.

Altogether though I'm a primary sources kind of guy. If you are working from ancient records or medieval manuscripts, get those and not someone else's packaged guide to them.

 

[kvzlx]

You're approaching this seriously, and I think that's the most important thing. In time you'll figure out what will work best for you. Some people seem to find the method you're trying with offerings and enns works best for them, others like those in this thread might follow the book to the letter, or opt for a dark mirror like Poke Runyon.

Personally, I've developed something piecemeal by half following the books and most often don't even keep to that, I end up doing something more freeform. That has worked well for me, but having never followed these other 3 methods (strictly by the book, dark mirror, demonolatry), even after a very long time practicing, I can't really say if one of them might suit me better. But I think all of these, and more, can produce comparable results.

I think that a lot of it boils down to learning how to trust yourself and your intuition, and that just comes with practice. I genuinely look forward to seeing your future updates, and reading any other input you recieve here.

Thanks ewiz, that's kind of you, and honestly reassuring. I think I've been half assuming there's one correct method and my job is to find it and not mess it up. Hearing from someone who's practiced for a long time, never tried those other three approaches and still gets results from something freeform, takes some of that pressure off.

What you said about half following the books made me realize I'm already doing that, I just hadn't called it that. My frame is what's documented for Bune with my own devotional layer on top, and I try to stay clear about which part is which. So it's already a mix, just a cautious one.

Quick update, since you were kind enough to ask: still waiting. Neither of the two signs I asked for has shown up in a way I'd count, and I've let a couple of near misses go instead of stretching them to fit. Since Bune seems to open doors that I then have to walk through, I'm treating the daily follow up as the real work for now and trying not to stare at the window.

The part about trusting yourself is where I'm stuck, though. How did you learn to tell real intuition apart from just wanting something to be a sign? Was it mostly looking back later at what turned out to be right, or did it start to feel different in the moment?

 

[ewiz]

I think I've been half assuming there's one correct method and my job is to find it and not mess it up. Hearing from someone who's practiced for a long time, never tried those other three approaches and still gets results from something freeform, takes some of that pressure off.

I think you have to find what works best for you is all. Some people might read my description and not think it matches what they consider to be successful evocation, because I'm not describing an experience of some unmistakable human figure having a clear audible conversation with me. I think perhaps that says more about me than the method though. I've known magicians who only evoke spirits while having an out of body experience, or as they would say on the astral plane, and their experiences might line up with a direct face to face conversation, just not to their physical senses. Some might call this imaginary. I measure success on whether one can achieve results. And thanks to forums like this, meeting many different people with different practices over the years, I know that all of these methods can produce real world results. Some people don't report experiencing signs or phenomena at all, but still produce their desired results.

The part about trusting yourself is where I'm stuck, though. How did you learn to tell real intuition apart from just wanting something to be a sign? Was it mostly looking back later at what turned out to be right, or did it start to feel different in the moment?

This is tough to point to, but I think it's just a feeling you have that you develop over time. For signs in particular like we're talking about, I think we all have a natural tendency to see patterns everywhere we might look for them. I actively try to avoid this, and only if something really jumps out (determined by feeling, gut instinct) or keeps repeatedly showing up enough, then I will look for meaning in it. I think this is a highly personal thing though. Some might say you're missing out on something by not attributing meaning to everything. I think that sort of mentality leads to delusions. Personally I'm skeptical about everything, but there is a sort of middle ground you have to find for yourself. Extensive mental training is the first step in a lot of traditions for this sort of reason, so you can learn to silence your mind and focus on these sorts of things. I would only recommend meditation, introspection, and being brutally honest with yourself at all times. You have to put in effort to see what IS, because it's natural to see only what we want to see.