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"Paganizing" the Jake Stratton-Kent Verum Tradition Even Further: A Discussion

Thee Nightfool

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I'm interested in Goetia in the sense of some ancient pagan artform that can be interfaced with a-la what Jake Stratton Kent suggests (though in my opinion doesn't fully showcase, RIP btw).

What is one of the simplest ways of interfacing with the Verum tradition without making an assload of tools/etc.? I'm quite inspired by the Conjureman Ali thread on here regarding a sort of Hoodoo/Conjure hybrid with the Verum spirits, but how trustworthy/chaotic is this notion? Surely full-blown evocation with visual "proof" is next to impossible in that dirt sorcery sort of manner?

Wondering if anyone here has any interesting tidbits on this. How can we "pagan-ize" the Verum even more now that JSK has set the framework?
 

MorganBlack

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Thee Nightfool, it's warms my heart others are taking an interest in Verum! I hope others begin experimenting and reporting in what amazing things they are doing, but just to help move this along a little, I'd say take a look at Rob Rider Hill's work. RRH has been experimenting along these lines, and modifying the mythic structure of the ritual framework for approaching Verum. Links below.

In my experience, but also from what I can tell of Rob Rider Hill's experiences, I think the Prayer of Success - The Astrachios Prayer that starts "ASTRACHIOS , ASAC , ASACRA. BEDRIMULAEL..." - is probably very central - and very useful to make central - to whatever mythic framework you use. The most dramatic manifestations I have had was after a periods saying the Prayer of Success on the drive to the studio and back. I really should have taken better notes , but it aligns with what RRH is saying.

He also uses some of my fave tech, the Headless Rite, which I recommend, But once you add it you're working in the Greco-Egyptian Alexandrian synthesis, and if one really really want to add say, Celtic or Norse god-forms, then you probably need a way for this to make sense mythically.

I know very little of those mythologies but what I'd say is with Verum core is the mythic idea of the Underworld- the "Harrowing of Hell," in the Christian myths, or the Chthonic realm in others. Explorations of WHO goes there, and why are important becasue you are now that guy or girl. I do not want to take away the opportunity to undertake (ha!) one's own mythic journey by making too many suggestions here.

(PDF) Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Ritual report, the first use of the cthonic Goetic temple
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Sample Script for the Cthonic Ritual Framework
Consecration of Tools and a Pact with Bune
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A simple(!) ritual framework for Goetic/cthonic spellcraft
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Rob Rider Hill writes here, "DO NOT try this at home. Except that its clear people are already doing much more risky things anyway, so whatever, this might help."

He is speaking to the liminal and sometimes trickster nature of the daimons , and that they are not 100% safe. In my UPG, I would say in meeting them you are taking an mythic journey into the Underworld , and not everything there is nice and your automatic buddy. Having friends and protection is worthwhile. And the daimons themselves can and will be that eventually that for the magician.
 

Faria

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What's the point? Would you rather have a cool pagan type grimoire or would you rather have success? The GV only has a couple of necessary tools: a rock, a knife that you use to cut, and a stick you cut with the knife are the main ones, it's nothing fancy or exotic. Would you feel so much better to see all the God stuff removed and replaced with Odin or Marduk? Almost everyone looks at this and similar grimoires and their first thought is to chop out all the Bible related elements and either forget about them or replace them with something less Judeo-Christian. When you do that, you also chop out the rewards and powers. Almost all of those people end up begging and bargaining with totally unknown infernal spirits, and has a single one of those people gained anything noteworthy from it? Small personal gains, maybe. I suggest maybe forget about improving the grimoire and instead improve your life by learning to read and follow instructions.
 

Thee Nightfool

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What's the point? Would you rather have a cool pagan type grimoire or would you rather have success? The GV only has a couple of necessary tools: a rock, a knife that you use to cut, and a stick you cut with the knife are the main ones, it's nothing fancy or exotic. Would you feel so much better to see all the God stuff removed and replaced with Odin or Marduk? Almost everyone looks at this and similar grimoires and their first thought is to chop out all the Bible related elements and either forget about them or replace them with something less Judeo-Christian. When you do that, you also chop out the rewards and powers. Almost all of those people end up begging and bargaining with totally unknown infernal spirits, and has a single one of those people gained anything noteworthy from it? Small personal gains, maybe. I suggest maybe forget about improving the grimoire and instead improve your life by learning to read and follow instructions.
Quite simply, the creation of a new Western tradition, which is what I think Jake was trying to achieve. Something removed from Abrahamic influence that retains a pure, chthonic essence.
 

Faria

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Quite simply, the creation of a new Western tradition, which is what I think Jake was trying to achieve. Something removed from Abrahamic influence that retains a pure, chthonic essence.
The grimoires might not be a good place to do that. It would be like deciding that Yoga needed some Jesus and trying to make a "new yoga" out of Western influences. The grimoires might have remnants of a few pre-Christian traditions, but they are a product of Christianity and a fairly obscure place to begin any kind of pagan revisionism. Who goes to the grimoires seeking a spiritual tradition anyhow? Out of all the myriad instances of Christianity ripping off pagan things, you pick an overtly Christian type of literature and want to use that to reimagine paganism? The grimoires have the reputation they do because they promise radical life changes like wealth, fame, and power, so where is the benefit of retooling them?
 

MorganBlack

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Hi Faria, I an somewhere in the middle of this, and am sympathetic to both impulses.

I tend to agree most people should first try the grimoires out as written before making too much personal customization - perhaps simplifying where necessary. While I hate making hard and fast rules, It is hard for ex-Protestants to grasp Western Magic, as it as come to us, is 99% Christian, if very Hermetic, with the goetic grimoires being mostly Catholic necromancy reframing ancient funeral rites. People throw the baby out with the bathwater in their rush to wipe all that away and be super sophisticated moderns.

As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke." If everyone wants to make them into vicious demons from Hell, they will be that for you.

I do not want to make this about theology and religion, we are magicians after all, not priests - something the neopagans have forgotten in their rush to make a religion to be a new shabby priest class of really-real things - but it helps to take a less adversarial or hostile stance toward the daimons Which can be done in a Catholic worldview, I will add:

Glitch Bottle - Not Just Magicians: Catholic Exorcists Called On Demons|
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I feel any ritual framework is mostly for the magician. They rituals are protocols, partially, a whole brain (left and right hemispheric) language for communication. For some reason this communication requires from us a mythic liturgy interface for them to interact with us... and the more complete that liturgy the better.

The big mythic framework, IMHO, is a Solar pantheistic one, that can be expressed in both pagan and Christian forms. Part of that journey is a Solar Underworld one , that starts with the setting sun, and can take a number of mythological forms. I just happen to resonate with Christ and the Harrowing of Hell, and his blessed mother. But these are very personal things I do not like talking about too much. But I would not go so far to say that one should only use Catholic liturgy, even if the grimoires are mostly Catholic, aside from John Dee’s more Protestant magic Enochian system.

I will also add Jake's pagan framework works. The daimons respond. I have used it and can recommend it. But Jake’s’ is a modulation of a very sophisticated and synthesizing Thelemic hermetic pagan framework using Egyptian and Greek gods. His “pagan” system is as far removed from the Marvel-Disney Instagram gab-bag we see online today.

The daimons do respond to name Hecate, and those in the PGM, probably because the know her and them. I doubt they'd even recognize the names of later pagan gods like Thor, Odin or The Morrigan, etc. and will just sit there confused , wondering what why we silly monkey started using these names, like, 5 minutes ago. But who knows? People should can try. Maybe they might cook up something good?

I will add modern neopagan reconstructionists, who take their worldview from 19th and early 20th century Victorian pastoral fan fiction, and turn the universe into a Disney film, should beware. Even if the daimons are not Hellspawned demons per se, they are also not totally safe. Take this as UPG, but I had one pagan friend , on learning that Astaroth is mythically connected to Inanna / Astarte, that means she "is" Astarte , so decided to just call her up. He got smacked hard by her and told very directly, "I am not Astarte. I. Am. ASTAROTH!"

I think they want us to believe in them, but not too much. Too much 'hard belief' locks down their range of moment though human-space. Even if I work in a mostly Folk Catholic mythic framework, I do tend to think them as Neoplantonic Wrathful Buddhas that burn astral shit off your soul, but that is just me. I am a far far better person for dealing with them. Hardly the image of an evil, pseudo-Satanic black magician.
 

Kizumolu

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Hi Faria, I an somewhere in the middle of this, and am sympathetic to both impulses.

I tend to agree most people should first try the grimoires out as written before making too much personal customization - perhaps simplifying where necessary. While I hate making hard and fast rules, It is hard for ex-Protestants to grasp Western Magic, as it as come to us, is 99% Christian, if very Hermetic, with the goetic grimoires being mostly Catholic necromancy reframing ancient funeral rites. People throw the baby out with the bathwater in their rush to wipe all that away and be super sophisticated moderns.

As Verum says the demons will come "according to the character and temperament of the one who wishes to invoke." If everyone wants to make them into vicious demons from Hell, they will be that for you.

I do not want to make this about theology and religion, we are magicians after all, not priests - something the neopagans have forgotten in their rush to make a religion to be a new shabby priest class of really-real things - but it helps to take a less adversarial or hostile stance toward the daimons Which can be done in a Catholic worldview, I will add:

Glitch Bottle - Not Just Magicians: Catholic Exorcists Called On Demons|
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



I feel any ritual framework is mostly for the magician. They rituals are protocols, partially, a whole brain (left and right hemispheric) language for communication. For some reason this communication requires from us a mythic liturgy interface for them to interact with us... and the more complete that liturgy the better.

The big mythic framework, IMHO, is a Solar pantheistic one, that can be expressed in both pagan and Christian forms. Part of that journey is a Solar Underworld one , that starts with the setting sun, and can take a number of mythological forms. I just happen to resonate with Christ and the Harrowing of Hell, and his blessed mother. But these are very personal things I do not like talking about too much. But I would not go so far to say that one should only use Catholic liturgy, even if the grimoires are mostly Catholic, aside from John Dee’s more Protestant magic Enochian system.

I will also add Jake's pagan framework works. The daimons respond. I have used it and can recommend it. But Jake’s’ is a modulation of a very sophisticated and synthesizing Thelemic hermetic pagan framework using Egyptian and Greek gods. His “pagan” system is as far removed from the Marvel-Disney Instagram gab-bag we see online today.

The daimons do respond to name Hecate, and those in the PGM, probably because the know her and them. I doubt they'd even recognize the names of later pagan gods like Thor, Odin or The Morrigan, etc. and will just sit there confused , wondering what why we silly monkey started using these names, like, 5 minutes ago. But who knows? People should can try. Maybe they might cook up something good?

I will add modern neopagan reconstructionists, who take their worldview from 19th and early 20th century Victorian pastoral fan fiction, and turn the universe into a Disney film, should beware. Even if the daimons are not Hellspawned demons per se, they are also not totally safe. Take this as UPG, but I had one pagan friend , on learning that Astaroth is mythically connected to Inanna / Astarte, that means she "is" Astarte , so decided to just call her up. He got smacked hard by her and told very directly, "I am not Astarte. I. Am. ASTAROTH!"

I think they want us to believe in them, but not too much. Too much 'hard belief' locks down their range of moment though human-space. Even if I work in a mostly Folk Catholic mythic framework, I do tend to think them as Neoplantonic Wrathful Buddhas that burn astral shit off your soul, but that is just me. I am a far far better person for dealing with them. Hardly the image of an evil, pseudo-Satanic black magician.
You are always very lucid in your contributions and, frankly, I love it. :)
 

MorganBlack

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Thank you, Kkizumolu! You made my day. I appreciate that.
Best to you and yours!
~MB
 
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