Pantheism and Panentheism

[Wise Owl]

Pantheism -

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Panentheism -

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Now, I always thought of myself as Pantheist, but I recently descovered there is Panetheism which is a completely new vies on things (for me). Can somebody explain me more about the second one. What is the key difference?

 

[whome]

Does the Source of All interpenetrate all of Existence?

Or is Existence the totality of the Source of All?

If the latter, how did Existence occur?

 

[Wise Owl]

Does the Source of All interpenetrate all of Existence?

Or is Existence the totality of the Source of All?

If the latter, how did Existence occur?

You didn't explain anything, just asked me questions.

 

[whome]

just asked me questions.

The Socratic method (asking questions) is intended to stimulate discovery

My own experiences indicate that the Source of All penetrates all Existence and therefore pantheism is not true to reality

Your observations may differ from mine

 

[Wise Owl]

The Socratic method (asking questions) is intended to stimulate discovery
Your observations may differ from mine

Well, it is better to ask somebody who spent years studying than spending that much time to grasp same things.

My own experiences indicate that the Source of All penetrates all Existence and therefore pantheism is not true to reality

So, is there God (by your experience) and if yes, in what form?

 

[Ziran]

What is the key difference?

In general....

One key difference: Closed vs open.

Pantheism is closed.
Panentheism is open.

Another key difference: Imminent vs transcendent.

Pantheism: God is immanent, not transcendent.
Panentheism: God is simultaneously imminent and transcendent.

Another key difference: natural vs. supernatural

Pantheism asserts all phenomena is "natural", but can appear to be super-natural before it is fully understood. Most monotheistic western occultists tend to be Pantheists. Spells and rituals intend to apply leverage, and direct the mighty forces of nature ( often referred to as angels or the-divine or the-universe ) to execute their will.

Panentheism asserts there are natural laws, mighty forces of nature ( divinity ) and more beyond it: super-natural.

I hope this helps,

 

[Wise Owl]

In general....

One key difference: Closed vs open.

Pantheism is closed.
Panentheism is open.

Another key difference: Imminent vs transcendent.

Pantheism: God is immanent, not transcendent.
Panentheism: God is simultaneously imminent and transcendent.

Another key difference: natural vs. supernatural

Pantheism asserts all phenomena is "natural", but can appear to be super-natural before it is fully understood. Most monotheistic western occultists tend to be Pantheists. Spells and rituals intend to apply leverage, and direct the mighty forces of nature ( often referred to as angels or the-divine or the-universe ) to execute their will.

Panentheism asserts there are natural laws, mighty forces of nature ( divinity ) and more beyond it: super-natural.

I hope this helps,

If so, is there a room for "manipulating" with the energy of this physical world and is there anything spiritual in both of these? Spinoza popularized this idea of pantheism while philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer rejected the idea stating “Pantheism is only a euphemism for atheism,” for “to call the world God is not to explain it; it is only to enrich our language with a superfluous synonym for the word world”

 

[whome]

So, is there God (by your experience) and if yes, in what form?

I have read that the concept of God is specific to this planet

I not find such concept useful. Consider the nature of Tzimtzum as it produces and reduces Existence

 

[Ziran]

If so, is there a room for "manipulating" with the energy of this physical world and is there anything spiritual in both of these?

"manipulating" energy? Yes, they are both most often monist belief systems.

Anything "spiritual"? Yes. Neither systems are contradicted or compromised by belief in spirits or spirit indwelling.

Spinoza popularized this idea of pantheism while philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer rejected the idea stating “Pantheism is only a euphemism for atheism,” for “to call the world God is not to explain it; it is only to enrich our language with a superfluous synonym for the word world”

Schopenhauer's objection is, imo, exaggerated because few interpret Pantheism such that God is just a synonym for the material world.

The most common objection to Pantheism is that Pantheism describes a limited God, not omnipotent, not omniscient. This has moral implications and logically permits lifting up the individual's desires as the highest principled ideal and is clearly conflicting with the Abrahamic paradigm.

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2024

What is the key difference?

Another key difference:

Pantheism is gnostic.
Panentheism is agnostic.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Pantheism -

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Now, I always thought of myself as Pantheist, but I recently descovered there is Panetheism which is a completely new vies on things (for me). Can somebody explain me more about the second one. What is the key difference?

I feel like you haven't got a very direct answer?

Pantheism: Everything in the universe is divine / made of divinity / suffused with divinity. God = Universe
Panentheism: As above, PLUS, god is also outside / above / beyond the universe

So in both of them, god = the universe, but in panentheism, god is also more

Schopenhauer said pantheism was a kind of atheism because it's possible to say "god is the universe" in a way that, say, Carl Sagan or Einstein might. To redefine "god" so that it means the material universe, and it's not really what a religious person would think of as god at all. But that's not the only way to do pantheism.

I would say that if you believe in Heaven, you need panentheism, because Heaven is outside the universe.

In a lot of mainstream religions, the world is not divine, and god lives outside the world.

So panentheism is kind of like paganism + mainstream religion put together (god is both part of the universe and outside the universe at the same time)

(I disagree with the "pantheism = gnostic" and "panentheism = agnostic" thing. Some Gnostic groups were pantheist and some weren't. If I were to generalise, Gnostics often believe that the earth was a mistake, created by an evil or at least idiotic creator who did a bad job, so I would generally say that is not pantheistic - since they are viewing the world as bad, not holy. Gnostics also usually believe there is a god outside of the universe, so panentheist is a better fit than pantheist.
"Agnostic" just means you don't know if god is real or not so you can be agnostic about any version of god.
It's possible Ziran is using gnostic and agnostic to mean something different)