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[Opinion] Patron spirits

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It is my opinion that although Goetic demons or shem angels are taken as patrons, that ancient gods and goddesses that fit in neither of the first two..are in fact patrons in waiting.

Your opinion?
 

8Lou1

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i was just thinking the opposite yesterday. that the old gods have left and a new group is coming in. maybe we are both right and they are waiting at the train station to go from one to the other. might be pretty cool if we managed to do that, a drunk and a snake charmer. ;)
 

Vandheer

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It is my opinion that although Goetic demons or shem angels are taken as patrons, that ancient gods and goddesses that fit in neither of the first two..are in fact patrons in waiting.

Your opinion?
Agreed. So many Pantheons that one can work with.
 
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i was just thinking the opposite yesterday. that the old gods have left and a new group is coming in. maybe we are both right and they are waiting at the train station to go from one to the other. might be pretty cool if we managed to do that, a drunk and a snake charmer. ;)

My experience is somewhat different given I belong to a tribal practice that never died out. Our "gods" are very much still here though knowledge of them is very much endangered.

I don't know that the gods of Western Antiquity are gone. Hekate still comes through strong, though gers are the keys to the crossroads.

I think, more so, we find ourselves in an interesting conundrum. One needs to suspend their modern lens in attempting to understand the practices of old from their native and original perspective. Yet this is impossible to do entirely. Try as we might, and we should try, we can not completely escape how our times have molded us and even if we could- we were not molded as having lived in antiquity and so do not have a proper lens to replace our modern one with. This is both the goal and the shortcomings of reconstructionism.

What does this mean for our relationship with the gods? Well first of all it means even if they haven't changed our perception of them certainly has. We need not even touch their capability to grow and learn over the centuries in order to be left with things to ponder.

Even if their essence is eternal our revelation of them couldn't possibly be the same as the flamens and flamenesses of old.

-do they even truly have the forms we perceive them as having or is that merely for our benefit of understanding? How much of a deity is essence and how much of a deity is the god-form our psyche developed to grasp it?

How many of these new gods are the old gods rebranded through our cultures kens and the lens of our times? - and to that point are they even the same gods? Are these new Egregores for divinity that have hived off or are they the same yet as different as we were earlier in life?

And what if the ethics here in navigating these conclusions so to not speak for a cultures established understanding? -and if say we call Athena as she was, does she exist enough to come, and if she now longer does now are we cling her earlier self through space and time? Perhaps, and perhaps for those deities outside of our normative flow of time they exist in all possible iterations or perhaps their growth is retroactive depending on their temporal/atemporal nature.

I am NOT going to claim to have any answers here and you did NOT read such heresy from me.
 

8Lou1

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well ive been wondering the same, but i also live with the annoying fact that the old ones are leaving and the new ones like to hide behind old names and sit on old chairs. im not THAT nice, show some respect. im not walking around with a mask either, we did that for 2 years and it looks stupid, just like with the spanish flu, but its obvious by now the new group is shy and overall when searching for contact one meets a line up of tricksters and nagas first. i think evil thought likes to take the front row, as usual and he only likes diverse cultures so he can kill crush and destroy again.

and you most def heard it from me, we need a gossip train. just please i know who i am and i use my online name for a reason. if the hint not taken (what i dont believe) my new gods wear meta masks and think they can hide foreknowledge by calling it foresight and playing stupid.

the only ethics there are on my sight, is that its my head and i decide who might be my companion in ruling it. and for sure that will never be a living human being. and some tricksters are. so im killing gods, memes and smileys. fucking aint why do you think we have a trilogy with different aspects highlighted? so we can smack the rest, duh.

wanna join? :coffee::sneaky::sneaky: ( i tried to express smexy into something textual and this is what i get ? ugh i still miss shadow and svarog. how many hackatons does a girl need to get over these 2......)

ps: i hope i didnt sound too drunk. some wanna learn how to get drunk in a safe way without suddenly having the whole legal justice department visiting.
 
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Well, there are ten planets (if I recall correctly, adding Uranus, Neptune and Pluto).
While reading Understanding the Thoth Tarot, XVI has interesting commentary.
Mars is not bloodshed alone, nor destruction its only way. It can be constructive.
Same with Neptune and Pluto. Neptune to break delusions and addictions; Pluto to aid in navigating through chaos to an ordered change.
 

Roma

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Eventually I found my supervisor/patron standing out in the solar system - looking rather amphibian.

I had a very close relationship with him but eventually he was promoted and I was never close to his replacement
 
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There were the Dragon, fish headed deities at one point in time. Bel may be associated. So what deities were these that were amphibian?
 

Roma

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Deity is a very human term. It may be better to think that not all species are limited to dry land and that many species cooperate
 
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My experience is somewhat different given I belong to a tribal practice that never died out. Our "gods" are very much still here though knowledge of them is very much endangered.

I don't know that the gods of Western Antiquity are gone. Hekate still comes through strong, though gers are the keys to the crossroads.

I think, more so, we find ourselves in an interesting conundrum. One needs to suspend their modern lens in attempting to understand the practices of old from their native and original perspective. Yet this is impossible to do entirely. Try as we might, and we should try, we can not completely escape how our times have molded us and even if we could- we were not molded as having lived in antiquity and so do not have a proper lens to replace our modern one with. This is both the goal and the shortcomings of reconstructionism.

What does this mean for our relationship with the gods? Well first of all it means even if they haven't changed our perception of them certainly has. We need not even touch their capability to grow and learn over the centuries in order to be left with things to ponder.

Even if their essence is eternal our revelation of them couldn't possibly be the same as the flamens and flamenesses of old.

-do they even truly have the forms we perceive them as having or is that merely for our benefit of understanding? How much of a deity is essence and how much of a deity is the god-form our psyche developed to grasp it?

How many of these new gods are the old gods rebranded through our cultures kens and the lens of our times? - and to that point are they even the same gods? Are these new Egregores for divinity that have hived off or are they the same yet as different as we were earlier in life?

And what if the ethics here in navigating these conclusions so to not speak for a cultures established understanding? -and if say we call Athena as she was, does she exist enough to come, and if she now longer does now are we cling her earlier self through space and time? Perhaps, and perhaps for those deities outside of our normative flow of time they exist in all possible iterations or perhaps their growth is retroactive depending on their temporal/atemporal nature.

I am NOT going to claim to have any answers here and you did NOT read such heresy from me.
This is why I am very much in defense of the Celts, as they have nearly died out a few times.
Hail Danu! Hail Lugh! Hail Dagda!
Their growth also depends on neighboring countries not consistently at war with them. My opinion.
 

Lyssia

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Well, this is me, and feel free to tell me I don't know wtf I'm talking about.

I try very hard not to get too hung up on identity. In the end, we're still talking about people. Not people like we are, but people.

I'm of the opinion that the idea of "old" gods and "new" gods misses the point. It's remotely possible that I could call on Athena, to use TheHumingbirdWizard's example while piggybacking on what she said, the way she was called on back in "her" time, but even if I could - and I can't - I'm an American woman in a modern age. Context is entirely different, and context is everything. Far better, and far more honest, to call on her in a way heartfelt to me based on whatever research and person gnosis I have, with my best understanding. In my experience, if she feels like bothering (actually, I've never had a problem with Athena in that regard, but as a hypothetical), she'll then go on to explain to me exactly how I should talk to her. Just like getting to know anyone else. Whether she's changed from the past or not is kind of nosy on my part, actually, I sure as heck don't show my high school pictures to just anyone. She is as she is to me, now.

But I also think that it really doesn't matter nearly as much as most people think if I'm actually talking to THE ATHENA. Perhaps she is. Perhaps she is a spirit of a lesser power or newer birth who identifies closely enough with the Athena of the Greeks to feel the right to step into her sandals; say, a priest or priestess. Perhaps she's a delegate from Athena. Perhaps she's my grandmother who always really liked the name, and who also felt a connection to the goddess and that's the only way I'm willing to talk to her spirit. (Well, not my grandmother personally, but theoretical grandmothers.) Yeah, if there's malice, harm, or trickery to a destructive purpose, shut the relationship down and start again, but frankly, we very rarely actually need A GOD for what we think we do. I kind of wonder if some find it insulting that we think our petty concerns are actually that big, when a simple request to our most recent new ancestor or the spirit of the tree in our backyard would do just as well. If a spirit is pretending to be a god, and it's a good, healthy, and successful partnership with you, than the rest is, imho, between them and the god, and it'd take a braver soul than me to pass judgement on it.

Same thing for patrons, though my experience is that I've yet to choose a patron that hasn't chosen me first. If it's healthy, mostly does what it's supposed to do, and is positive, go with it. Delve deeper as you get to know your patron, don't be an arrogant jerk up front. You called, they came; by choosing to call a specific god, you've specified what you're looking for. That said, though, I absolutely think gods and goddesses can be patrons, and may or may not then be what their patronee expects. (Mentee? You get the point.)
 
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