Recent criticism of magic

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

So what should we define as magick?

What was your first success?

I define magick as the art and science of energy manipulation, joined with desire and will to manifest your desired goal.
My first success was finding a hundred dollar bill at my feet out of nowhere, a week into post-ritual of a prosperity working out of Celtic Magic.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: Criticism
※→ et al,

Our Friend Diluculo_DelFego has started off with the most important question of all:

So what should we define as magick?

(COMMENT)

Magic is an undefined Metaphysical Concept about a supernatural capacity to alter the reality in which all of humanity exists. While Magic is NOT a religion, the practitioner MUST have a belief in a "High Power" that radiates Consciousness → and sets the conditions within which humanity has some perception and begins to recognize what we call reality.

That is a mouthful. But then, "magic" has an impact on everything we envision in our mind, and then goes beyond that. And we call that "beyond" the supernatural realm. In the first success story in the first posting (supra) magic altered reality. The initial reality was the condition that there was NO $100 Bill. THEN, something altered that reality in which the $100 Bill was there, where there was none before. We attribute the new reality to the result of an undefined power source we call magic. Which comes from that "First Cause" (

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) that set the universe in motion and established the Laws of Physics.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Al-Zalaam]

So what should we define as magick?

What was your first success?

I define magick as the art and science of energy manipulation, joined with desire and will to manifest your desired goal.
My first success was finding a hundred dollar bill at my feet out of nowhere, a week into post-ritual of a prosperity working out of Celtic Magic.

I don't like to philosophize about the concept of Magic itself all that much normally speaking, but if I must, I simply see it as the study and application of all Creation, all the way from the most high celestial spheres and subtle dynamics of the fundamental forces, to the lowliest aspects of material life.
Nothing escapes the principles of the higher spheres or would exist without their labour, so I do not dare to draw a line between the Spiritual and the Physical, because the Physical is an aspect of the Spiritual in the first place.
For that reason, the path of Magic doesn't just entail intangible spiritual practice, but the application of these studies to physical life as well - lifestyle, real-world skills, daily routine, everything.

That's the academic, big-picture view though, and not how I think about magic practically speaking on the day-to-day basis 99% of the time.
If you were to ask me this question in the midst of a normal day, I'd say "Don't be stupid, we all know what magic is".
Philosophizing about magic is fine and good occasionally, but Philosophy can easily became a virulent plague that derails the practical pursuit of magic and undermines the very thing it is attempting to understand. I've seen far too many people become armchair-magicians because they get too caught up in Philosophy rather than Practice, or even worse, they become blithering, incoherent crackpots because they get devoured into hyper-intellectualism and lose touch with reality.

What is magic? Go do it, and you'll see. That's the best way to know.
Better to understand magic through experience rather than words - and real-world practice will get you farther into magic than philosophy ever will.

What was your first success?

It was a long time ago as a pre-teen, after I started my first serious pursuit into occultism through the practice of Psychokinesis.
I was obsessed with Psychokinesis in my younger years, and during one summer break where I had plenty of time and opportunity, I began seriously practicing every day for several weeks.
I was absolutely determined to succeed and wouldn't stop until I did - and eventually that's exactly what happened.
It was a totally random success though, no indication of it beforehand and no obvious reason why it would happen then and there, it just did.

I was just in a really good mood one day, and I popped into my room for a quick try at PK with the usual object, but I didn't even bother sitting down or closing in on it - I was standing in the doorway across the room, feeling super confident, and just gave it a shot.
The moment I tried though, the difference about this attempt was immediately noticeable, because it was like I could almost literally feel the object inside my brain, and then I just....... spun it around, as if it were just a part of my body.
It was like a sudden psychic connection was formed between me and the object, and it was easily moved within an instant by pure intention.

Immediately after that, I just exploded with excitement and satisfaction, and it was worth all the weeks I had spent beforehand getting absolutely nowhere. I spent the rest of the day glowing with exuberance like I just won a million dollars.

The ironic thing about it though, is that it wasn't the movement of the object itself that was so compelling - but the strange, sudden psychic phenomenon I experienced in my brain which caused the movement. I have never forgotten that strange feeling.

 

[Jiggywiggy]

Magick is controlling a mystery. If you showed your phone to someone 100 years ago that would be magical to them. Since alot of occult teachings are sparse and teachers are even sparser there is few that "know" the inner workings of it. That is what makes it Majick in my opinion. We all have our gifts and acquire new ones everyday.

Congrats to you Heydi in your connection to that object. Moving object is a tough practice, i still can barely move a string pendulum in a bottle where my brother can bend spoons (kinda jeleous of him).

My first success will always be astral travel. I only did it once, but it was enough to propel me into studying it and the occult.

 

[Elementriloquist]

So what should we define as magick?

What was your first success?

I define magick as the art and science of energy manipulation, joined with desire and will to manifest your desired goal.
My first success was finding a hundred dollar bill at my feet out of nowhere, a week into post-ritual of a prosperity working out of Celtic Magic.

1. My definition would be:
"Magic is one enacting their will upon reality in a manner that cannot be explained by the laws of the physical realm and operates outside the limitations of the physical realm."

I think too many people speak of magic as this vague and subjective concept, and I think they do this (subconsciously or consciously) as a means to validate their own perceived abilities. Their definition leaves a lot of wiggle room for pretty much anything to be classified as magic.

Magic has lost it's meaning because modern day practitioners (and readers) have decided to classify the mundane as magic, for the sake of "feeling included" and not experiencing self doubt. They've lowered the bar of what is considered magic so that they can always meet it's requirements.

Decades and decades of this has led to a watering down of standards, which has led to less and less people believing in magic even being possible, which has led to less and less people even beginning to practice. One day there will be a generation in which magic is like "sci-fi", something that nobody practices but rather only views as "strictly a work of fiction".

To me magic is very literal, subjectivity and the lowering of standards is exactly why occult communities today are rife with scammers and fake gurus.


2. I haven't had a "first success" yet and I likely won't for many years, as there's a certain level of skill I have to attain before I can even attempt the experiment that I would use as a test for success. There will of course be many feats accomplished from now till then, but these feats will be minor and would not be conclusive based on my standards.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

I think too many people speak of magic as this vague and subjective concept, and I think they do this (subconsciously or consciously) as a means to validate their own perceived abilities. Their definition leaves a lot of wiggle room for pretty much anything to be classified as magic.

Magic has lost it's meaning because modern day practitioners (and readers) have decided to classify the mundane as magic, for the sake of "feeling included" and not experiencing self doubt. They've lowered the bar of what is considered magic so that they can always meet it's requirements.

I would agree that the modern occult community has lowered the bar and lacks the structured pursuit of meaningful practical magic, but it is uncharacteristic of a student of Bardon's work to be dismissive of the mundane or intangible spiritual aspects of the path of Magic.

The IIH paints a clear picture that mundane life and the mundane world are anything but "mundane".
Every action and behavior you do molds the composition of your Soul, every thought and concept you entertain influences the structure of your Spirit, and every activity you partake in can influence all of these things and builds the destiny of your Being, and much, much more.
Hell, many of the exercises within the IIH are literal mundane activities which you are taught the magical application of.
Even the very existence of the physical world itself is a miracle of the labour of the Earth Element, and everything you see or touch has higher connections and is a complex arrangement of Elemental and Celestial powers which can be tapped into or assimilated into daily life and magical practice.

The heart of magic does not lie in material power, it is the meaningful pursuit of spiritual development with the ultimate goal of self-realizing one's Divinity - Power just happens to be a side benefit.
But Bardon himself explicitly discourages the attitude which prioritizes material power, and I certainly hope that this isn't the attitude you hold.
Providence is not in the habit of giving power to the profane, and those with that kind of attitude usually fail or are denied progress.

While material power certainly is a possibility along the path of magic, half of the exercises in the IIH have nothing to do with physical magic and are subtle spiritual exercises with intangible goals. Magic's net is very wide and ranges from the most miraculous physical feats, to the must subtle spiritual refinement and practices of the soul, and those who get lost in either extreme will fail.

There are faults within the modern occult community, but don't become a reactionary who has the exact opposite problem.
Balance is necessary, and a polarized perspective in the opposite direction is just throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Elementriloquist]

I would agree that the modern occult community has lowered the bar and lacks the structured pursuit of meaningful practical magic, but it is uncharacteristic of a student of Bardon's work to be dismissive of the mundane or intangible spiritual aspects of the path of Magic.

I am not dismissive of these things, I'm just pointing out the obvious that these things cannot be tangibly verified, and it is for that very reason most occultists like to focus their entire practice around these things. It allows everybody to pat themselves on the back and say they are a magician, because the criteria is always subjective.

The IIH paints a clear picture that mundane life and the mundane world are anything but "mundane".

We definitely interpreted the book differently.

Hell, many of the exercises within the IIH are literal mundane activities which you are taught the magical application of.

I don't think you read the same book as I did:
1. Bardon is very literal with all of his exercises. Even for astral projection exercises he goes into detail about making sure that you are "grounded" in physical reality. In fact every exercise that's in the book seems to revolve around "physical testing" and making sure that you aren't just hallucinating. That's literally the reason I chose it as my training system, as every other book wasn't taking itself seriously.

2. Ironically I made a thread today which proves my point (I list two experiments from Step 5, Bardon treats magic as something very literal (like science) and there is pretty much always some kind of "physical testing"):

Magic Experiments From Initiation Into Hermetics - My First Goal/Milestone

When I had first stumbled upon Initiation Into Hermetics I was surprised by how literal magic was treated inside of the book, and that's exactly the reason why I chose it as my primary means of training. Not only was it a step by step training system (unlike the other books I saw which were just...

wizardforums.com

Even the very existence of the physical world itself is a miracle of the labour of the Earth Element, and everything you see or touch has higher connections and is a complex arrangement of Elemental and Celestial powers which can be tapped into or assimilated into daily life and magical practice.

To the uninitiated, they'd be skipping a few steps to take on this mindset at the beginning, and not care about physical and observable magic. It's really just a cop out so that you don't have to test your own sanity and competence.

Dude, a lot of the later mental exercises are literally about training yourself to see, hear, smell, etc hallucinations on command lol. You have to be crazy to not care about observation and testing when it comes to something like this.

If these exercises work you can lose your sense of reality very quickly, if you aren't trying to ground yourself in reality you don't really care if you are progressing or not, you just enjoy the experience of thinking you are.

The heart of magic does not lie in material power

Yes, but one cannot verify if they have any power at all, or they are just a delusional schizo, unless they test and observe their material power.

I think people are getting ahead of themselves by focusing on spiritual development, which once again, is subjective and cannot be verified.

Have you ever asked yourself why people have joined cults, drank poison at the command of cult leaders, etc?

It's because these individuals have the same mindset of the "occultists" I'm talking about right now. They value subjectivity and an unobservable and unverifiable mystery, because it makes them feel special, and it makes them feel like they are part of something greater than themselves.

Me, I want to start at square one and verify whether the charismatic leader is even worthy of being followed. Analogously, I want to verify if I have any power at all (and it's not just self delusion or a placebo effect), before I start delving deeper into anything spiritual.

it is the meaningful pursuit of spiritual development with the ultimate goal of self-realizing one's Divinity - Power just happens to be a side benefit.

There is no objective way to test and verify your spiritual development without using your physical power.

To believe otherwise is exactly why people end up joining cults and are easily manipulated.

Anybody can simply claim that they are "enlightened" without any proof or testing, and if they are charismatic enough, they will convince many people of this. Since nobody is being objective and demanding physical proof, the charismatic leader never gets proven to be a fraud. Many people then lose their life savings, family, and even their lives.

I think there are two types of individuals in the occult/spiritual world:
1. People who are genuinely seeking magical development
2. People who are seeking a "spiritual experience"

Group #2 are prime targets for fake gurus and cult leaders because they pretty much treat their occult practice like it's a drug and they are just chasing their next high

Group #1 couldn't be bothered with "following" any guru or joining any cult, because they only care about the results (observable and testable results).

To me, the results are all that matter.

But Bardon himself explicitly discourages the attitude which prioritizes material power, and I certainly hope that this isn't the attitude you hold.

I think you need to read the book over. Bardon discourages abusing your power to harm others, he doesn't discourage focusing on physical testing and results so that you can truly gauge your abilities.

half of the exercises in the IIH have nothing to do with physical magic and are subtle spiritual exercises with intangible goals.

Pretty much every exercise I've read in that book hints at a practical application or outright states it. The testing methods are also very practical and physical, and some of them are literally scientific experiments. Once again, we didn't read the same book, or you were just seeing what you want to.

Balance is necessary, and a polarized perspective in the opposite direction is just throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Never said anything about not being balanced, but once again, you are skipping steps. One has to first verify that they are actually doing magic first (and they aren't just a delusional) before they start trying to balance their development.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

So let's review basics of physical magic.

Have you tried illusion or magic tricks?
Have you divined and found the result of interpretation to fit reality?
Have you tried to use psychometry?
Have you tried pyrokienisis?
Have you tried telepathy?
Have you tried telekinesis?

Can you bend a spork with your mind alone?

I cannot, that's why I turned to Magick.

 

[Elementriloquist]

So let's review basics of physical magic.

Have you tried illusion or magic tricks?
Have you divined and found the result of interpretation to fit reality?
Have you tried to use psychometry?
Have you tried pyrokienisis?
Have you tried telepathy?
Have you tried telekinesis?

Can you bend a spork with your mind alone?

I cannot, that's why I turned to Magick.

I wouldn't just "try" any of these things randomly without any training that "builds up" to being capable of it. Some of the feats you mentioned are actually in Initiation Into Hermetics. Maybe the book is wrong and these feats aren't even possible, but I guess I'll find out, I'll either fail or succeed.

That's exactly what I like about IIH, there are grand end goals at the end of your training. One that interests me is Bardon's claim that you can heal people, and he says to go to hospitals to test the ability. All the effort and daily exercises seem worth it if you can do something like that.

If someone told me that I was supposed to follow their methodology of magic, practice for years, and then at the end of all of my work I couldn't do anything "tangible", I would never bother practicing magic to begin with.

Would you go to University to get a Masters degree if it only made you 10% more than minimum wage?

That's what practicing magic for 5+ years with no tangible abilities is (in my opinion). It's like putting in Masters level effort, only to end up with High-school dropout income. That time could have been spent learning real life skills that would have benefited the individual in the physical world they currently exist in, and they could have just filled that "spiritual hole" in their life with religion (like the majority of people on the planet).

Religion doesn't require anything but faith and prayer, and billions of people are fulfilled by it. There's no need for anyone to go through years of occult practice, if at the end of it they can't do anything different than someone who spent their entire life simply believing and praying a few times a day.

Now I think I've typed out enough long responses for a while lol. I could very well be wrong about everything I'm saying, which would make all of this postulation pointless on my part. I should probably take my own position more seriously and do more practicing and less talking about practicing. So I'll be taking a break from the forum, goodbye.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: The Unknown
※→ et al,

I think there might be a bit of confusion here.

So let's review basics of physical magic.

Have you tried illusion or magic tricks?
Have you divined and found the result of interpretation to fit reality?
Have you tried to use psychometry?
Have you tried pyrokienisis?
Have you tried telepathy?
Have you tried telekinesis?

Can you bend a spork with your mind alone?

I cannot, that's why I turned to Magick.

(COMMENT)

Activities that involve "Illusion", "Trickery", or "Slight of Hand", etc for the purposes of entertainment, fraud, or to assist law enforcement, are something entirely different than the other kinds of phenomena outside these aforementioned practices.

Those activities as studied in the paranormal realm and psychic abilities are carveouts under the study of Parapsychology (Psi). These are (generally speaking) the studies of the existence of experiences in "Precognition", "Clairvoyance", "Telepathy", "Extrasensory perception (ESP)", "Psychokinesis / Telekinesis", "Out-of-body experiences (OBEs)", etc, are a separate set of possible mental powers from human functionality still yet to be understood.

Then, there is the set of observations that could be spiritual, or based on energies beyond the understanding of relativity, quantum mechanics, and classical physics. This would include (but not limited to) the nature of life forces and the various arguments on reality; as well as, → "Apparitions and Hauntings," due to the energies involved. Because we do not know the true nature of OBEs, they may fit into more than one general class. If you can actually make such observations through one of the five human senses, then there is either an electromagnetic or bioelectric component in the spectrum of energy that is somehow detectable. MAGIC (calling upon the powers of the First Cause), because it involves a spiritual component and is believed to draw upon the forces of the universe considered part of this Metaphysical realm (that which is beyond our current understanding of the various sciences).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Al-Zalaam]

I am not dismissive of these things, I'm just pointing out the obvious that these things cannot be tangibly verified, and it is for that very reason most occultists like to focus their entire practice around these things. It allows everybody to pat themselves on the back and say they are a magician, because the criteria is always subjective.


We definitely interpreted the book differently.


I don't think you read the same book as I did:
1. Bardon is very literal with all of his exercises. Even for astral projection exercises he goes into detail about making sure that you are "grounded" in physical reality. In fact every exercise that's in the book seems to revolve around "physical testing" and making sure that you aren't just hallucinating. That's literally the reason I chose it as my training system, as every other book wasn't taking itself seriously.

2. Ironically I made a thread today which proves my point (I list two experiments from Step 5, Bardon treats magic as something very literal (like science) and there is pretty much always some kind of "physical testing"):

Magic Experiments From Initiation Into Hermetics - My First Goal/Milestone

When I had first stumbled upon Initiation Into Hermetics I was surprised by how literal magic was treated inside of the book, and that's exactly the reason why I chose it as my primary means of training. Not only was it a step by step training system (unlike the other books I saw which were just...

wizardforums.com

To the uninitiated, they'd be skipping a few steps to take on this mindset at the beginning, and not care about physical and observable magic. It's really just a cop out so that you don't have to test your own sanity and competence.

Dude, a lot of the later mental exercises are literally about training yourself to see, hear, smell, etc hallucinations on command lol. You have to be crazy to not care about observation and testing when it comes to something like this.

If these exercises work you can lose your sense of reality very quickly, if you aren't trying to ground yourself in reality you don't really care if you are progressing or not, you just enjoy the experience of thinking you are.


Yes, but one cannot verify if they have any power at all, or they are just a delusional schizo, unless they test and observe their material power.

I think people are getting ahead of themselves by focusing on spiritual development, which once again, is subjective and cannot be verified.

Have you ever asked yourself why people have joined cults, drank poison at the command of cult leaders, etc?

It's because these individuals have the same mindset of the "occultists" I'm talking about right now. They value subjectivity and an unobservable and unverifiable mystery, because it makes them feel special, and it makes them feel like they are part of something greater than themselves.

Me, I want to start at square one and verify whether the charismatic leader is even worthy of being followed. Analogously, I want to verify if I have any power at all (and it's not just self delusion or a placebo effect), before I start delving deeper into anything spiritual.


There is no objective way to test and verify your spiritual development without using your physical power.

To believe otherwise is exactly why people end up joining cults and are easily manipulated.

Anybody can simply claim that they are "enlightened" without any proof or testing, and if they are charismatic enough, they will convince many people of this. Since nobody is being objective and demanding physical proof, the charismatic leader never gets proven to be a fraud. Many people then lose their life savings, family, and even their lives.

I think there are two types of individuals in the occult/spiritual world:
1. People who are genuinely seeking magical development
2. People who are seeking a "spiritual experience"

Group #2 are prime targets for fake gurus and cult leaders because they pretty much treat their occult practice like it's a drug and they are just chasing their next high

Group #1 couldn't be bothered with "following" any guru or joining any cult, because they only care about the results (observable and testable results).

To me, the results are all that matter.


I think you need to read the book over. Bardon discourages abusing your power to harm others, he doesn't discourage focusing on physical testing and results so that you can truly gauge your abilities.


Pretty much every exercise I've read in that book hints at a practical application or outright states it. The testing methods are also very practical and physical, and some of them are literally scientific experiments. Once again, we didn't read the same book, or you were just seeing what you want to.


Never said anything about not being balanced, but once again, you are skipping steps. One has to first verify that they are actually doing magic first (and they aren't just a delusional) before they start trying to balance their development.

Your response in the other thread confuses me then.

You misunderstood my message because you were more interested in being combative than in paying attention to my words and understanding what I said.

For someone who has just begun the IIH, you are awfully arrogant.
Didn't I just have to correct you from making a novice mistake in one of the very first Mental exercises last week?
And yet you have the audacity here to tell me that I don't know Bardon's work and I need to go re-read it?

I've been solely studying Bardon's work for well over a decade and have read it more than a hundred times through, and I have already achieved some of the lofty goals you are pursuing yourself. I know exactly what the IIH entails and what is said.

Most of your response I won't even entertain, because it is either something I didn't mention or disagree with in the first place, or is naïve combative nonsense.

I am not dismissive of these things, I'm just pointing out the obvious that these things cannot be tangibly verified, and it is for that very reason most occultists like to focus their entire practice around these things. It allows everybody to pat themselves on the back and say they are a magician, because the criteria is always subjective.

Your message could have ended here, that was a fair enough response to what my message entailed.
I was simply giving you a cautionary warning about the dangers of neglecting the spiritual dynamics of the path of magic and having a single-minded obsession with material power.
Those who have that kind of obsession are usually denied progress in the IIH and thus I was ensuring that was not the case, because that is the impression you have been giving off.
The fact that you do not see, after everything I've said and all the information presented in Bardon's works, that mundane life and physical existence is inherently tied to Magic and an important aspect of Initiation is..... worrisome, but not my problem, so I'll leave that to you. If you really have the potential to succeed, you'll figure this out on your own by the time you hit Step III.

The reason my message confuses you with my response in your other thread, is because you assumed I was denying the importance of practical magic, which I do not.
I am warning against the single-minded pursuit of material power over all else, as if it was the only important part of initiation - I'm not discouraging proper physical experimentation at all.
Physical experimentation is a normal part of the IIH in the later steps, but it is prefaced by a mountain of mundane exercises and intangible Spirit/Soul work which keeps going even till the end, so -if- your only goal is the pursuit of physical power, you won't last. Even if someone has the sheer determination to pursue it anyways, it is unlikely Providence will allow it.
As I've said before, Providence does not have a habit of gifting power to those with only profane motivations - and I was just here making sure you aren't falling into that category.
And yes, Bardon explicitly denounces the vulgar pursuit of power in the very first sentence of the Introduction. Not to mention his consistent encouragement throughout the IIH that the student would be wise to continue pursuing the deeper spiritual development farther into the IIH rather than getting side-tracked by the physical phenomenon that the student -can- pursue earlier if he desires.

But like I said, I'm not discouraging physical experimentation or practical application, especially when explicitly instructed to do so in the few instances like Step V. This was not a black-and-white conversation, on the contrary, it was precisely a warning about not falling into that kind of thinking, as even Bardon's thinking isn't black-and-white either and is contextually based on how far you are into initiation.

Never said anything about not being balanced, but once again, you are skipping steps. One has to first verify that they are actually doing magic first (and they aren't just a delusional) before they start trying to balance their development.

That is.... completely antithetical to the first steps of the IIH.
You don't even touch Elemental Magic until Step III of the IIH, and Physical magic until about Step V, and Bardon explicitly insists that the student attains a balanced degree of Spiritual development and Astral Equipoise in Step II before engaging with Elemental Magic.
The IIH wasn't made for skeptics and cynics who are desperate for proof, it was made for sincere spiritual practitioners interested in the thorough development of Magic with higher spiritual goals in mind, and who aren't insecure about its existence.
A normal, rational person is going to spend years going through the first three steps of the IIH just to "find out" if it's real. So if you actually have the stones to go through the first steps of initiation, then congratulations, you're a nutcase like the rest of us.

Anyways, I hope this is the only time I have to receive such unnecessary combativeness from you for a simple whisper of caution.

 

[Elementriloquist]

The IIH wasn't made for skeptics and cynics who are desperate for proof

If that's true, It's weird that Bardon wasted his time writing literal scientific experiments for his students to test their abilities. Sounds exactly like the kind of content you'd include in a book to target skeptics.

Now I think I've typed out enough long responses for a while lol. I could very well be wrong about everything I'm saying, which would make all of this postulation pointless on my part. I should probably take my own position more seriously and do more practicing and less talking about practicing. So I'll be taking a break from the forum, goodbye.

I'll be back in few months. Personally, I think I'm going to experience a "snowball effect" once I hit Step 2.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I think we need to re-steer this back to the original convo, as entertaining as this has become. @RoccoR thank you for your recent reply, it was back on topic. I think the question at hand is to classify magic "feats" or "miracles", and find the scientific reasoning behind it using the scientific method, and doing this across the vast sea of what can be classified as non-paranormal. Yet still being paranormal if that makes sense.

Post automatically merged: Feb 16, 2023

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: Criticism
※→ et al,

Our Friend Diluculo_DelFego has started off with the most important question of all:


(COMMENT)

Magic is an undefined Metaphysical Concept about a supernatural capacity to alter the reality in which all of humanity exists. While Magic is NOT a religion, the practitioner MUST have a belief in a "High Power" that radiates Consciousness → and sets the conditions within which humanity has some perception and begins to recognize what we call reality.

That is a mouthful. But then, "magic" has an impact on everything we envision in our mind, and then goes beyond that. And we call that "beyond" the supernatural realm. In the first success story in the first posting (supra) magic altered reality. The initial reality was the condition that there was NO $100 Bill. THEN, something altered that reality in which the $100 Bill was there, where there was none before. We attribute the new reality to the result of an undefined power source we call magic. Which comes from that "First Cause" (

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) that set the universe in motion and established the Laws of Physics.

Most Respectfully,
R

Another feat I noticed in evocation of elemental beings was that things got weirder per the realm they operate in, feeling over emotional at times, antsy to get things going, feeling buried in debt while earnestly seeking wealth channels, uncontrolled thought. I dont recommend demonic evocation without protection aside from a LBRP.
Nature .. ask nature a question as to where someone is and nature listens, responds, and finds them. Trees tell all.

Post automatically merged: Feb 16, 2023

Magic and magick for example, denote a change in the opinion between the two as press and cons and the general purpose.
To define it without a result that manifested is proof to me something is not working.
Then we can explore low and high magic, witchcraft and druidry. etc. We can find several definitions of magic, yet test each system if it produces tangible results according to direction fully followed. Recipe books are grimoires for example in wizardry of cooking.

 

[Taudefindi]

So what should we define as magick?

I believe that is a very subjective question.
What may be magick to one may not be magick to another.

I define it as a means to make miracles happen.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: The Unknown
※→ Taudefindi, et al,

Yes, your answer is subjective. That does not mean it is more right or more wrong.

I believe that is a very subjective question.
What may be magick to one may not be magick to another.

I define it as a means to make miracles happen.

(COMMENT)

A "definition" is a "Human Concept" to facilitate understanding and communication. Your answer is just as valid (conclusion follows from the premises) as any other genuinely sincere response. But there is no one true definition that satisfies all perspectives or is universally accepted.

IF a person believes in "magic" and that "magic" actually exists, THEN they (by default) believe in energy and power beyond the definitions of the known forces (as understood today) (the Metaphysical). The Weak Force, the Strong Nuclear Force, and the Electromagnetic Force are explanations for the observations at the Subatomic Level. The Gravitational Force is an explanation of observations made at or within the Galactic Level. The forces are explained through means of Quantum Mechanics (QM) and Relativity computations. As of yet, the QM and the Relativity explanations are (apparently) valid individually, by can not be made to line up in a unified manner. That implies a number of alternative thoughts → one of which is "something is missing." That something - or that new understanding - may account for the concepts of the "Life Force" • "the Bio-equation for "Consciousness" • and what we call "Magic."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[stalkinghyena]

I am somewhat fond of what Richard Cavendish had to say in The Black Arts:

"The great fascination of magic is in the type of thought on which it is based. Magical thinking is not random, it has its own laws and logic, but it is poetic rather than rational. It leaps to conclusions which are usually scientifically unwarranted, but which often seem poetically right."

One aspect of "magical thinking" that has shuffled it into the realm of "proto-science, proto-religion" is that our Universe is a living and intelligent entity. I make reference to the old idea of the "Anima Mundi" - The Soul of the World, which is immanent in infuses all realms from the sensible to the divine. Given the apparent behavior of QM and the analogies that some scientists have drawn regarding the neural-like pattern of of webs of galaxies, the magical style of thinking has plenty of back doors and alleys in which to operate. However, much of the reasoning beyond accepted terms will seem "poetic" at best to the hard nosed critic.

I think for the individual seeking those back doors and hidden alleys ultimately has to face the problem of their own personal power. It is too easy to rely on psychological projection, which is in certain senses is a positive solution that can have meaningful results, but also a path of error in assumptions that can lead to compounding delusions. A moment of apparent success can later create a false sense of success down the line and lead to an increasing spiral of misperception. A critic of magic might latch on to this and point to the futility of superstition - however, the irony here is that the same pattern exists in the "hard sciences", where cultures of fixed interpretations dominate and resist even the idea that their own laws might be more malleable and might have exceptions that can bring the whole system down. But the tangible results of science - the toys, the tech, etc. - keep it "real". If my cell phone works, it must be true.

Sometimes I play with the idea that, aside from practice, if magic is a "force", then it is conspiratorial. Another way to put it is that, if the Universe is an intelligent entity, it can change its mind at any moment.
But because we are completely subordinate to this infinite power of manifestation (being part of it), we might never know the difference.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: The Unknown
※→ stalkinghyena, et al,

(EASY REFERENCES)

These are only three of a series of a dozen or more professionally written (Doctorate Level Authors)

Verified by Psychology Today and subsequently published by Psychology Today on the various subtopic of Metaphysics→ you might find interesting.

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Consciousness matters. The questions are when, how, and why does it matter?​

​

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Solving the metaphysical mystery of life, mind, and culture.​

​

◈

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Parapsychologists aim to test the existence and explore the nature of experiences and abilities in the paranormal realm.​

. . .
Sometimes I play with the idea that, aside from practice, if magic is a "force", then it is conspiratorial. Another way to put it is that, if the Universe is an intelligent entity, it can change its mind at any moment.
But because we are completely subordinate to this infinite power of manifestation (being part of it), we might never know the difference.

(COMMENT)

The general theory (in logic) of the "

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" is that the Supreme Being creates the forces that uphold the superstructure of the universe. And under this superstructure, the general theory of the potential origin of "magic" is the "First Cause."

.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[stalkinghyena]

(EASY REFERENCES)

These are cool and useful. Thanks Rocco!

the general theory of the potential origin of "magic" is the "First Cause."

Which is interesting because the First Cause is also the origin of Itself, "unbegotten and indivisible" as one invocation has it. I find there is a certain beauty and agony in the ultimate paradox of trying to understand it beyond simple acceptance. But I also believe the process has the potential to confer real power to those who can make the ascent. It can also be dangerous beyond imagining - as the saying goes: "One cannot look upon the face of God and live."
But as a symbolist in my thinking I find it intriguing that "Enoch walked with God, and was not."

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: The Unknown
※→ et al,

I think there might be a bit of confusion here.


(COMMENT)

Activities that involve "Illusion", "Trickery", or "Slight of Hand", etc for the purposes of entertainment, fraud, or to assist law enforcement, are something entirely different than the other kinds of phenomena outside these aforementioned practices.

Those activities as studied in the paranormal realm and psychic abilities are carveouts under the study of Parapsychology (Psi). These are (generally speaking) the studies of the existence of experiences in "Precognition", "Clairvoyance", "Telepathy", "Extrasensory perception (ESP)", "Psychokinesis / Telekinesis", "Out-of-body experiences (OBEs)", etc, are a separate set of possible mental powers from human functionality still yet to be understood.

Then, there is the set of observations that could be spiritual, or based on energies beyond the understanding of relativity, quantum mechanics, and classical physics. This would include (but not limited to) the nature of life forces and the various arguments on reality; as well as, → "Apparitions and Hauntings," due to the energies involved. Because we do not know the true nature of OBEs, they may fit into more than one general class. If you can actually make such observations through one of the five human senses, then there is either an electromagnetic or bioelectric component in the spectrum of energy that is somehow detectable. MAGIC (calling upon the powers of the First Cause), because it involves a spiritual component and is believed to draw upon the forces of the universe considered part of this Metaphysical realm (that which is beyond our current understanding of the various sciences).

Most Respectfully,
R

In terms of Clairvoyance or clairaudience, besides the Flying Ointments in grimoires, and perhaps besides Mullein, what herbs or spices open you up to clairaudience? I have an ancestral issue Im pondering, and clairaudience would help. Mullein seems to be cracking the shell, but thats about it.

EDIT: After skimming through Hoodoo Herbal, Anise Seeds and Dandelion Root ar must haves to add to an oil or tea.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Recent criticism of magic
SUBTOPIC: Self-Development
※→. Diluculo_DelFuego, et al,

Clairvoyance and Clairaudience are NOT magic.

In terms of Clairvoyance or clairaudience, besides the Flying Ointments in grimoires, and perhaps besides Mullein, what herbs or spices open you up to clairaudience?

(COMMENT)

"Clairaudience" and "Clairvoyance" are ―individual paranormal abilities that exceed the spectrum of normal experience or scientific explanation (Mozart and Music, Dr Anne Adams creating paintings that were simultaneously scientific and artistic, Veronica Seider has a visual acuity that is 20 times better than a normal person’s, Daniel Temmet possess super intelligence). These rare cases are not totally understood; but there may be a genetic association. It is not (outside observers determined) magically induced and it is not an enhancement by elixir or potion. Those familiar with these gifts believe such paranormal abilities can be acquired by freak accidents or bestowed by deities that act as guardians.


Most Respectfully,
R