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I often hear people say that our relationship with spirits isn’t one-sided: we ask them for help, but we also help them in return. In principle, I really like the idea of a balanced relationship in which each side contributes something to the other. But I wonder what that means in practice.
Aside from offerings or the worship we might give them, in what ways do we help the spirits? Do we generally know what we’re giving them, or is it something that happens in a more subtle way—perhaps without us even being fully aware of it? Do they ask us for it, or do they let us know in some particular way?
I’d be very curious to read about your experiences, your stories, and the various theories you’re familiar with on this subject. What does this reciprocity actually look like in your own relationships with the spirits?
I think (from a Jungian or more Perennial-sense) SPIRIT is many. And they/(s)he/He don't do things for the results.. I believe this is to show "the way" or what I may refer personally as: THE GOLDEN THREAD OF THE THREE FATES. I experience a strange and profoundly connected tether by practicing such methods and abandoning false idols; burning the temples of idiotically compassionate sheep. In order to liberate them and reveal/remind them of their true origins and humanities. WE each carry a karmic amount of that GREAT WORK. It' really just depends on how deeply ONE is wiling to listen to the Invisible forces of the letters, suits, cards, trees, sephira, mudras, asanas, etc. if there's anyway I can help feel free to message me directly!
Thank you for your response. I understand the Jungian or perennialist perspective you’re proposing, as well as your idea of the Great Work. But I don’t really see the connection to my question.
I’m not asking what the spirits teach us, what path they show us, or what spiritual mission we might have to fulfill. I’m simply wondering what we bring to them when they work with us.
It’s really this concrete reciprocity that interests me here: personal accounts, experiences, or theories about what the spirits themselves gain from this relationship.
I have arrived at the concept that spirits receive energy from us at some level from the attention, and the more attention and intent focused upon them, the more they receive. Moreover, incense and other offerings have their own energy which is used by the spirits. It also explains preferences for certain offerings by certain spirits, and is received from simple entropy to burning it other consumption. I've also received information that they seek to enjoy the material works through us when the relationships are close.
This is a really good question, and I think it's a bit of a complicated one to answer, because a lot of it depends on the nature of your relationship with the spirit. Worshipper, student, friend, all these different labels for relationships expect something a little different from the practitioner.
I generally experience that most of the spirits I work with treat me in somewhat of a maternal way, so their interest is in my spiritual development and general well-being without asking too much in return (well, maybe so I can be useful to them down the road, but we'll see). These spirits I regularly give offerings to and communicate with regularly.
For other spirits, especially for one-off workings, it's usually as straightforward as performing a specific task for them, or giving them an offering of some sort. The task given usually depends on the nature of the spirit asking for the task, but offerings are more straightforward.
I really do think that some spirits just want to help people, and by taking them seriously and accepting their help you are giving them what they want in return because any beneficent teacher wants their students to succeed.
Broadly speaking there are different kinds of spirits, and their identity seems to depend on the side you look at them from. That is, what seems to be one spirit from one perspective is many from other perspective.
That being said, one of the more practical ways of looking at most of the spirits is defining them by their drives. They don't care to have anything you can give them, but dealing with them is by itself aligning with their purpose. When you, for a very commonly practiced example, pray to Michael for protection (assuming you're doing that honestly), your will becomes extension of his will, and in exchange his virtues become extension of your power. Same if you use a demon of envy to curse your enemies - you receive some of its nature, it receives some of your will, because you're essentially acting in its name.
Shortly, giving you what you ask for usually is what the spirit wants anyway,
I have had half-lucid "true dreams" where I was doing trades with beings I could call djinn or fae... They were weird deals in objects of vague but somehow definite Meaning... like there it was perfectly clear what a truck filled with coconuts actually was and why a strange little goblin considered it of value to trade for something deeply important... waking i can only vaguely summon up the idea as hazy poetry... (makes me think of the phrase "matters of the Soul" from The Willows by Algernon Blackwood...)
Personally I feel that our exchanges with the "spirit" realms are as varied and complex as those we have with other humans. What do we trade with our human friends, mentors, disciples? If money is taken out of the equation, human relations are based on a more subtle mutuality, on recognition, support, the act of seeing one another. With some spirits, I am convinced we "trade" the same things. With others, well... maybe unthought dreams, forgotten tears and drops of our Qualia of the color red. And with again others, stuff I'd be reluctant to trade.
I often hear people say that our relationship with spirits isn’t one-sided: we ask them for help, but we also help them in return. In principle, I really like the idea of a balanced relationship in which each side contributes something to the other. But I wonder what that means in practice.
Aside from offerings or the worship we might give them, in what ways do we help the spirits? Do we generally know what we’re giving them, or is it something that happens in a more subtle way—perhaps without us even being fully aware of it? Do they ask us for it, or do they let us know in some particular way?
I’d be very curious to read about your experiences, your stories, and the various theories you’re familiar with on this subject. What does this reciprocity actually look like in your own relationships with the spirits?
That would entirely depend on what type of 'spirits' you are talking about ?
The lovely old lady that sometimes sits in the front sun room ( that some might call a ghost ) ; plesant converse , maybe I play music for her , or put some nice flowers in there . Not that I ever asked her for anything .
The host of entities that 'live inside me ' ; we have a contract and what I offered was ... ( this is difficult, I am trying to be brief and simple ... I will try an analogy ; ) ... three students at school made a pact ; if any of them become successful and the others do not - when they leave school - they will help and support any of the three that do not find success
The three were in this famous legendary pact was Nizam al-Mulk (born Abu Ali Hasan ibn Ali Tusi), who went on to become the celebrated Grand Vizier of the Seljuk Empire , Omar Khayyam - the famous poet and Hassan i Sabbah .... who later went renegade and formed the 'Hashasims ' - The Order of Assassins ( and the root of our modern words 'hashish' and 'assassin'
In short, I suppose , a promise to let them share in your future evolution ... urrrgh , its complicated and associated with a decades old past , a major goetic ritual and the 'spirit' Bume .
The 'Higher Spirits ' considering the 'tutelary deities ' and the connection and 'intersection with 'Genous Loci ' and my indigenous teacher instruction , to put it in his wonderfully simple terms ; '' You need something. you just ask 'Big Mum', she will look after you ..... but you have to obey her Law .'' Now its not that she will come down on me if I dont , others will , but she can not really help you there .
' Rouge spirits ' ... be nice and I won;t blast you
Thank you for your response. I understand the Jungian or perennialist perspective you’re proposing, as well as your idea of the Great Work. But I don’t really see the connection to my question.
I’m not asking what the spirits teach us, what path they show us, or what spiritual mission we might have to fulfill. I’m simply wondering what we bring to them when they work with us.
It’s really this concrete reciprocity that interests me here: personal accounts, experiences, or theories about what the spirits themselves gain from this relationship.
I offer to the spirits that make up my psyche that I will 'take them across the Chinvat Bridge' when I meet my Daeena and not abandon them and leave them behind ... I offer to share my 'evolution' .... a 'hitch to my star ' , as it were . Of course , no 'demonic entity ' can pas or join , so it is up us ( them and me ) to help with that transformation (deep within the psyche ) , if it is impossible for them, then unfortunately , for the good of all, they must be removed , if transformation is impossible .
'' Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil.''
O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.
I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.
Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.
These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light
I often hear people say that our relationship with spirits isn’t one-sided: we ask them for help, but we also help them in return. In principle, I really like the idea of a balanced relationship in which each side contributes something to the other. But I wonder what that means in practice.
Aside from offerings or the worship we might give them, in what ways do we help the spirits? Do we generally know what we’re giving them, or is it something that happens in a more subtle way—perhaps without us even being fully aware of it? Do they ask us for it, or do they let us know in some particular way?
I’d be very curious to read about your experiences, your stories, and the various theories you’re familiar with on this subject. What does this reciprocity actually look like in your own relationships with the spirits?
I spend time with a spirit, and she doesn’t seem to want anything in return.
It’s as if she loves me unconditionally, without any kind of offerings.
She gives me guidance and maybe a nudge in the right direction sometimes. //
I was thinking of giving her something in return, but I’ve never had that feeling...
Maybe reciprocity isn’t always about what we give, but simply about sharing our presence.
19. Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.
20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee.
This was the Golden Dawns ' On the General Guidance and Purification of the Soul' and advice within the OTO 2nd degree initiation , titled 'magician ' .
'Sorry' I am old school , we used to train develop and learn morals, and ethics and the components of our psyche and cross reference it through different religions and philosophies and then get examined and get initiated and 'all that boring old stuff'
I have arrived at the concept that spirits receive energy from us at some level from the attention, and the more attention and intent focused upon them, the more they receive. Moreover, incense and other offerings have their own energy which is used by the spirits. It also explains preferences for certain offerings by certain spirits, and is received from simple entropy to burning it other consumption. I've also received information that they seek to enjoy the material works through us when the relationships are close.
This is my feeling too, that attention is the most important thing they get from us. I believe the more attention they get the more realized they become. I do try giving other offerings as well, such as candles, incense and cool water, but I always try to do it with attention. I'll light the incense and then sit with them for awhile and talk to them... usually thank them for their help, but sometimes I just like to ponder their particular natures and share my thoughts with them about that.
