[Opinion] Silence

[dema354]

So I'm not sure who else in this community shares this stance but I've never viewed the ideal of silence as a law. They say not to reveal or speak about doing magick, to keep your craft hidden. Well why? Typically it's believed that by doing so you're either feeding the ego or that by exposing your craft you leave it open to being hindered or altered by outside forces. To put that another way it's like having one too many chefs who are not in agreement and thus interfere with one another however I don't find this has to be the stance we have to take. If we speak or to be bold, brag about our crafts to others, that is an exercise in ego yet why must ego be silenced for the purposes of magick? To spiritually develop ourselves? Why must we be humble for spiritual development in fact is it even necessary? Perhaps for certain forms of magick which rely on relationships, sure. If your powers come from a spirit and moreover from a vow which demands secrecy then it would be prudent to uphold it after all however not all forms of magick require external spirits and as such it doesn't make much sense to call silence or rather secrecy a law.

So if silence isn't a law or rather a universal one in regards to magick then do I view it as completely useless? No, far from that. Although I view silence not as a law I do however view it as an act of discernment, key advise. Allow me to back up and give 2 examples. Perhaps it's because the nature of chaos magick's adaptability allows it to avoid some of the pitfalls found in other traditions or maybe it's because psi, if we were to count that as a form of magick, from the elitist standpoint is about capability, not belief. These 2 practices which I engage in, when taken in this context should not be subjugated to notions of secrecy since chaos magick is based around either finding shortcuts or workaround while the elitist position of psi asks whether you are capable but does not care for belief or disbelief, whether yours or another's. Either one circumvents the so called ego trap or interference by others or the other outright considers them to be nonfactors. If you ask me, I still think keeping silent even in cases where silence is arguably optional may serve a different purpose. For example, if you decide not to be silent then there's a pretty good chance some might try to learn from you. Well are you an expert and moreover is it even something that can be taught? Are they able? See I'm not sure who else has notice this but aside from bolstering the ego or interference from others, another reason why some adhere to silence has to concern with finding a worthy student or at least a capable one. Why waste your time broadcasting yourself before the scoffer? As the saying doth goes, "Do not cast your pearls before swines lest they be trampled upon" yet even if we're dealing with metaphorical swines, is the student even ready yet? Do you even have enough knowledge to guide them and the fortitude to admit when you may have made a miscalculation? No? Then perhaps it's not yet time to speak. There is a time for everything, a time to keep silent and a time to speak. The challenge is figuring that out so err on the side of caution I say. Is that a law? No, just practical advise overall.

 

[iseht]

This is a nuanced topic, essentially there are places and people with which it is appropriate to share things and others with which it is unwise. Buddhist monks have as one of their vows to not share things relating to spiritual attainment, but the unspoken part is to not share it with lay people. Within one's own circle they would discuss these things so that they might learn and course correct if they are drifting into dangerous waters.

With the common folk, trying to convey an ineffable experience to them that is only understandable to our selves through abstract symbolism or internal references that cannot be put into words will obviously fail to reach them and will result in misguided notions about how things work. This is really the fundamental problem with how religion has turned out in the modern world.

The Buddhists have this idea of kalyana mitta, or spiritual friends, that I think is appropriate here. It is actually very important to have friends that one can discuss these things with and I think that for many places like this serve as the outlet for that. It remains best to keep it contained within one's spiritual friend group.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 5:45 AM

Its also worth noting that for centuries prior to this one might have been killed for speaking about these things, so this tradition has gained some traction over the years.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I personally believe that the most important part of 'keeping silent' refers to not involving anyone outside the originators of a magical act, until that magical act has completed.
This is because, as John Constantine put it: "I'll tell you the ultimate secret of magic - any c*** can do it".
This means that everyone has access to magic, but (of course) almost no-one knows how to use it.
At the time a magical act completes, everyone involved in it must end up in a consistent state - they must all agree that the act completed (hopefully successfully).
Unless everyone involved was strongly involved in the magical act, their involvement is most likely to be randomised.
Allowing randomised magic (by chatting to your postman about it for example) into your magical act is likely to disrupt it. Thus, 'keep silent'.

 

[Morell]

Silence is indeed not a law, it is a state of being. It has many advantages and is in fact needed for many things too.

For example if you want to communicate, not only with spirits, but with humans too, yo must sometimes stop talking and become silent so that you can not only hear, but to actually lsiten what others have to say. Silence strengthens your senses, allowing you to pay more attention to them.

It is an impresive tool and weapon, alowing you to give ohers space as well as to hide things from others that you do not want to share.

There are many reasons for traditional saying that; Speaking is silver, silenceilence is gold.

 

[HoldAll]

Keeping silent insulates you from unwelcome outside interference. Once you lay your head on the block of public opinion, you open yourself up to destructive criticism or ridicule. It's one thing to discuss your beliefs and quite another to have one's genuine spiritual experiences dissected and destroyed by ignorant fools. What has been said cannot be unsaid. Silence, on the other hand, puts you into a position of power. It's you yourself who controls the flow of personal information. It's you yourself who guards your secrets. It's you yourself who decides what to keep to yourself and what to put out there. I'd rather err on the side of caution in this respect and keep mum unless I'm absolutely convinced I'll be able to profit from other persons' input.

 

[12RelayT10]

In my opinion, it’s about definitions. There are different definitions, so what exactly are we talking about? When we read and understand the same books of law, we understand things in the same way. In fact, we don’t all read the same books, which makes it very difficult when someone is not very specific.

I once got a tip to listen, see, and smell twice as much as you speak.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 3:33 PM

There are many reasons for traditional saying that; Speaking is silver, silenceilence is gold.

Speaking is hard work, who likes to drink ethanol?

 

[aviaf]

Silence isn’t mystical and it isn’t a commandment. Levi framed Tacere as one of the Four Powers of the Magus, but in practice it’s just operational hygiene. I keep my mouth shut on anything in motion unless the people involved are part of the operation. Sure, you’ll want to talk about your magic. That’s why this forum exists, but that urge doesn’t mean it’s good for the Work.
Most people don’t need secrecy; they need fewer witnesses so they stop mistaking other people’s reactions for their own signal.
Silence isn’t about ego or spirits. It’s about keeping your center intact. Speak when it serves the Work. Shut the fuck up when it doesn’t. The old systems called it a ‘law’ not because the universe cares, but because your results do.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 4:40 PM

Ha... should have read the comments before posting, but to be honest I barely finished reading the OP. At least I reiterated the fantastic points made by the previous the commentary.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

The most physical, tangible magic possible?

Hey everyone! I was wondering what the most physical type of magic is? Some example I've heard when I've asked others this question include getting something to ring a bell (spirit, demon ,whatever), and the eastern practice of neikung. I believe there was a post on here a little while ago...

wizardforums.com

Somewhere in this above discussion there have been said interesting things about silence.

 

[Lucien6493]

Actually, what isn't talked about here is the first thing I noticed about this site. We talk a great deal about technique and about the theories that underlie our practice but to my antipodal mind this is as much prevarication as it is circumambulation. If your magick goes deep enough silence will be the only thing left. Ironically, I have been writing about silence my whole life and never once said a word about it, and I can't shut up about it either, because in silence I touch the infinite ground of my own existence where all distinctions between left hand/right hand, or up or down, or sideways, or betwixt and between lose all meaning. And where do I try to show up for this silence? In my day to day life. In all of the things that I will never talk about because it isn't anyone's business. There are secrets here, in these forums, just as there are in the A.F. & A.M. and they fall under the seal of the silent ones. And for good reason. At the end of the day, how you show up for magic is how you show up for your life, isn't it? And your life is something that can never be explained away. It begins with a scream and ends in silence and it's answer is 42, which means nothing because it leaves nothing out. How could you even begin to talk about it? For me silence is why I practice magick. It is magick. I hold no Will above it. To me it is the most intimate way of touching. Power is born in it. So is meaning. So now I'll shut up cause all I'm trying to say is that magick is like being punched in the face. It's an experience, not a theory or a technique. If it hits you hard enough there is nothing left to say. But then you got.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

So now I'll shut up cause all I'm trying to say is that magick is like being punched in the face. It's an experience, not a theory or a technique. If it hits you hard enough there is nothing left to say. But then you got.

I think we all know that magick needs to be experienced. But if two or more parties have had that experience, it becomes possible for them to talk about it.

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  : C'mon, Spock, it's me, McCoy. You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?
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  : It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame-of-reference.
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  : You mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death?

 

[Lucien6493]

"It is completely credible because it is unsuitable". In short, our common reference point is exactly what divides us and you can take that in both ways. As for what cannot be spoken of I will leave to Wittgenstein except to say that the world is only as rational as language will allow and leave it at that. There is no way we will solve this. It's right up there with the mind/body problem and the confusion of the planes. You believe the world is rational. I believe that it is not. You value fact over paradox. For me it is the measure of truth. Eris tosses a golden apple. Cheers!

 

[Robert Ramsay]

"It is completely credible because it is unsuitable". In short, our common reference point is exactly what divides us and you can take that in both ways. As for what cannot be spoken of I will leave to Wittgenstein except to say that the world is only as rational as language will allow and leave it at that. There is no way we will solve this. It's right up there with the mind/body problem and the confusion of the planes. You believe the world is rational. I believe that it is not. You value fact over paradox. For me it is the measure of truth. Eris tosses a golden apple. Cheers!

I believe that, Wittgenstein notwithstanding, it is a mistake to just give up and say "oh, it's too hard, oh it's impossible". Poetry (for example) shows that it's possible to talk about 'impossible' things if the writer and the reader share some measure of experience, and as Alan Moore says, magic and art are practically the same thing.
Also, telling me I 'value fact over paradox' a) assumes a lot of things about me you don't know and b) a paradox in this context is, as Richard Feynman put it: "'paradox' is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality 'ought to be'"
Just because you think it's impossible, doesn't mean that it is. I would rather try and fail than not try at all.

 

[HoldAll]

I have this personal rule that says: "The best posts are the ones you DON'T make". (Much too) often I would write out a long reply in a text file, only to delete it after I'm finished because it's polemical, incendiary, or stupid. It's always the right decision, I feel. Si tacuisses sapientior mansisses, as the Romans said. So what you get here is only my second-best reply.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I have this personal rule that says: "The best posts are the ones you DON'T make". (Much too) often I would write out a long reply in a text file, only to delete it after I'm finished because it's polemical, incendiary, or stupid. It's always the right decision, I feel. Si tacuisses sapientior mansisses, as the Romans said. So what you get here is only my second-best reply.

I have a word file where I paste this never sended posts or paragraphs and save them. Once in a while I reread them all. It is a quite interesting mirror for the ego and I recognize almost all the masks I wear in it. In that document I keep also my epic failures, mostly happened whenever my discernment went of.

 

[Kepler]

The taboo of silence provides a place for charlatans to flourish in occult communities.

It's been obvious in examples online like reddit for awhile where vapid posts like "Because of silence I can't go into any description of my ancient method but claim spectacular results from it" happen regularly and are upvoted.
If their spectacular results are only evidenced by spending constant time on reddit to recommend Iamblichus and youtubers at a moments notice and never having an original idea to share from a unique occult experience that isn't occult, it's mundane posturing as occult.

It's challenging for a person to engage with real unique experience(not visualized from reading examples), but those experiences naturally lead to a unique development of thought through processing against other maps.
Once drawing out one's own map to experience it's more compelling to remain silent regarding key elements over any concerns then completely silent. Especially as there is a strong urge to share real experiences and one's thoughts on them immediately, and even more so after research and other discussions.

 

[12RelayT10]

It is okay to say that something is your best.

The opinions and knowledge we have today are not the same as those of the future or the past. Yet, even though we can see these immense differences, they are, in a way, the same thing.

Think of it like a television: the programs change, but the device itself stays the same. We have a television (the human) with different programs (information). So yes, programs change, but there is a common base. If the screen is black, we study the television itself. Or is that not true?

That is why we write things: we like to watch television. And of course, we do not pin people to their words, because we know that things are set up, programs change through the years, just as things in nature change. Like silver, we have to keep polishing our information in order for it to shine. It is also okay not to polish it, the silver will turn black and eventually disappear to the untrained eye.

So we are watching this television, we see a movie, and we say, “This is the best movie.” Over our lives, we see many more movies, and eventually someone asks, “What is the best movie you’ve ever seen?” You might say, “I cannot tell, maybe only per subgenre.” Then we see that there can be many “best” movies in different genres. This continues endlessly: the more movies you see, the more everything is divided into subgenres.

And this is only one person’s taste within a limited period of time. If there were no limit to the number of movies, one would only know what is “the best so far” at that point in time. Personal taste changes faster than the accumulation of movies, so without a very good memory, you start all over again.

Eventually, people may stop watching the movies and focus only on the device itself, the black screen, the broken screen, the snowstorm screen. Some might even build an aquarium inside it.

 

[Kepler]

There's working smarter not harder with silence that many are doing too.

For example, most that have some knowledge of Thelema's "Do what thou wilt" know that isn't do what you want according to Crowley's commentaries. But that doesn't stop many first time readers and entrenched Crowley detractors from attributing that mistake to Thelema.

It's noticeable in posts now that those who know the difference are watching silently. There could be many reasons. Mine are to see if the problem resolves itself, who thinks that way, and maybe clarify once it reaches a threshold. It's a job better suited to a vi(ai) and their own devices.

 

[dema354]

The taboo of silence provides a place for charlatans to flourish in occult communities.

Oh yeah, there's that too. Plus the deluded.

If their spectacular results are only evidenced by spending constant time on reddit to recommend Iamblichus and youtubers at a moments notice and never having an original idea to share from a unique occult experience that isn't occult, it's mundane posturing as occult.

Agreed.

Keeping silent insulates you from unwelcome outside interference. Once you lay your head on the block of public opinion, you open yourself up to destructive criticism or ridicule.

At the same time though you may also receive guidance and assistance from others than if you had stayed silent. Alas though, and I might be mistaken here, what tends to happen outside of occult spaces is like you said, destructive criticism or rather ridicule. I'm not saying there's no value in being tested and refined however what's the point in trying to have a discourse with someone who views you as inferior, tepid and superstitious? The amount of times I've seen communities outside of the occult including any form of paranormal or anomalous research or study which was opened to such experiences and practices and at least accepting of them can be on 1 hand. The rest, well best case scenario they were indifferent but usually what tends to happen is ridicule.

Not saying that I view ridicule as harmful to the operation, I don't but of course I'd rather not waste my time with such people. Debating for the purposes of finding common ground, to at least express one's ideals and to say they are worthy of consideration or to further understanding is good, at least in my opinion it is but that's not what happens now is it? No, the public enjoys and gathers more to polemics than it does to rhetoric.

Just because you think it's impossible, doesn't mean that it is. I would rather try and fail than not try at all.

A worthy approach I'd say. As the saying goes, it's better to have tried and failed then not try at all. In my opinion when the status of possibility is uncertain, it is more honest to try than to do. Yoda's do or do not, there is no try might work for its context but it ignores a world where even if we assume an objective truth there is no guarantee of certainty. In that case how can we say we are doing? We can't know for sure but we can try and with that eventually do for the ones we discover to be true or very likely to be as such.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I have this personal rule that says: "The best posts are the ones you DON'T make". (Much too) often I would write out a long reply in a text file, only to delete it after I'm finished because it's polemical, incendiary, or stupid. It's always the right decision, I feel. Si tacuisses sapientior mansisses, as the Romans said. So what you get here is only my second-best reply.

In that case, my Latin motto is "Num mihi curae est respondere?" - can I be bothered to reply?