Book Discussion Simon Necronomicon

[Robert Ramsay]

That's... literally the history of grimoires dude. Watch Sledge's channel.

I was trying to be generous when I said 'Quite a few' because I haven't read them all

The Simon Necronomicon is one I have read.

Post automatically merged: May 20, 2024

Lovercraft opened ancient portals, and he payed with his life.

At risk of going off-topic, Lovecraft invented a kind of meme, or perhaps hypersigil. Remember, when we declare a thing to be real, the consequences are real.

 

[Xenophon]

I was trying to be generous when I said 'Quite a few' because I haven't read them all

The Simon Necronomicon is one I have read.

Post automatically merged: May 20, 2024

At risk of going off-topic, Lovecraft invented a kind of meme, or perhaps hypersigil. Remember, when we declare a thing to be real, the consequences are real.

Hypersigil? You mean his references to the non-extant Necronomicon functioned as a "hypersigil"? I suppose I would style it, rather less elegantly, as a prominent feature of Lovecraft's mythological topography. It sets up in the reader a certain attitude and to that degree might be called real. Whether it's optimal is another question. Lovecraft had highly equivocal feelings about his work/discoveries. I tend to think this undercuts magical efficacy.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Hypersigil? You mean his references to the non-extant Necronomicon functioned as a "hypersigil"? I suppose I would style it, rather less elegantly, as a prominent feature of Lovecraft's mythological topography. It sets up in the reader a certain attitude and to that degree might be called real. Whether it's optimal is another question. Lovecraft had highly equivocal feelings about his work/discoveries. I tend to think this undercuts magical efficacy.

I see your point. I think that Lovecraft just let his mind spill out onto the page, and this created fertile ground for other people (like the writer of the Simon Necronomicon and indeed August Derleth etc.) to create facets of a hypersigil, to the point we have today where people have whole occult books dedicated to working with these previously non-existent entities.

A kind of MCU for existential horror

 

[Xenophon]

I see your point. I think that Lovecraft just let his mind spill out onto the page, and this created fertile ground for other people (like the writer of the Simon Necronomicon and indeed August Derleth etc.) to create facets of a hypersigil, to the point we have today where people have whole occult books dedicated to working with these previously non-existent entities.

A kind of MCU for existential horror

There are those that say his dreams tapped into realities he could not handle and spent his waking hours stridently denying. Which is one helluva possibility, but hard to establish persuasively. (I mean, one could just as cogently argue that Edgar Allen Poe and Lewis Carroll were prophets, ditto too for fantasy writers like the late John Rawls---each accessed occult realities not open to we, the more mundane.) You at least have a more elegant explanation: that belief generates efficacious workings, whatever the ontology one afterwards attributes.

 

[Fausto]

That's... literally the history of grimoires dude. Watch Sledge's channel.


Some would say he served his purpose.

Indeed

 

[stalkinghyena]

I was reading and reminiscing about being 13 and reading the SN, trying to figure out "Yes, Master, but how?
Then I came across a curious passage and now wonder if the SN should not be viewed in terms of "authenticity" or "functionality", but rather as a cryptically written polemic:
From the second part of the "Testimony", Page 212

"And I have seen a Race of Man that worships a Giant Cow. And they have come from somewhere East, beyond the Mountains. And they are surely worshippers of an Ancient One, but of its name I am not certain, and do not write it down, for it is useless to thee anyway. And in their rites, they become as cows, and it is disgusting to see. But they are Evil, and so I warn thee."

To whom could old "Abdul" be referring?

 

[TSK.]

For those who have actually tried working with this book, I had a questions for you.

In the Simon Necronomicon the instructions for crafting each of the seals are tied to different astrological timings. Usually the planet associated with each gate being exatled.

However in the second book The Gates of the Necronomicon, it says the planetary correspondence are a blind. It then gives no specific instruction for creating seals, and instead just focuses on timing for the actualy gatewalking ritual, which is the 13th day of lunar cycle.

So if the author is now saying the planetary correspondences are a blind, then surely crafting the seals based on planetary timing is also a blind, yes? So does the crafting of the seals no longer have any specific timing?

Just curious what anyone else who has read both books thinks.

 

[Sabbatius]

For those who have actually tried working with this book, I had a questions for you.

In the Simon Necronomicon the instructions for crafting each of the seals are tied to different astrological timings. Usually the planet associated with each gate being exatled.

However in the second book The Gates of the Necronomicon, it says the planetary correspondence are a blind. It then gives no specific instruction for creating seals, and instead just focuses on timing for the actualy gatewalking ritual, which is the 13th day of lunar cycle.

So if the author is now saying the planetary correspondences are a blind, then surely crafting the seals based on planetary timing is also a blind, yes? So does the crafting of the seals no longer have any specific timing?

Just curious what anyone else who has read both books thinks.

I posed this question to an associate of mine for an answer as I only worked with the initial "Simon"(a.k.a. Levenda) Necronomicon. The answer I got was the typical Chaos Magick answer of whatever works best for you considering the Current is heavily Chaos Magick-oriented. However, she suggested that if you worked directly with the first book with the seals and their associated planetary correspondences and the times with success, continue. I also recommend this.

 

[stalkinghyena]

Just curious what anyone else who has read both books thinks.

I didn't know about the sequel. Or if I had, at the time the OG Simon was the probably least of my concerns.

Still, this is interesting:

But what if the seven stages of awareness, the seven steps up the ladder of lights—the Seven Gates—do not pertain to the seven “planets” at all? What if the ancients knew all along that there was a higher order in the universe, some realm of wisdom and power far beyond our small solar system in a corner of a galaxy in a corner of the macrocosm? What if the seven “planets” were a blind, something to occupy the activity of the astrologers and the other “fatalists” who believed that humanity’s destiny was written in the stars and could not be changed? A determinist perspective designed to ensure the people’s docile acceptance of the circumstances of their existence: the king, the state, the land?

-The Gates of the Necronomicon, Simon, pg. xvi

So if the author is now saying the planetary correspondences are a blind, then surely crafting the seals based on planetary timing is also a blind, yes? So does the crafting of the seals no longer have any specific timing?

Looking back through the SN, at least in the sections pertaining to the seals and gates, I did not find specific reference to timings. Perhaps you could point to the exact spot for the these tired eyes.
I did find a bit about the Chaldean astrology being perfect and paranoid mention of one who knew, but was forbidden to name, so I scratch my head and go through a list of candidates.
Personally I try to find a timing for any type of astro magic, even if it is just Luna in a right relationship. Tommaso Campanella came up with a nifty scheme of boarding up a room against stellar rays and then lighting torches to represent favorable planetary positions.
Picatrix seems to suggest you can manipulate these things through symbolism - but if it is preferable to ones inner auspices that it is really is all just a blind, the chaote that shit.

the Current is heavily Chaos Magick-oriented

I am of a mind that it was also written to get the attention of Kenneth Grant - he being so loving towards Nema.
But I also wonder if the same current was Cicada 3301 initiating.

Really, the only "blind" in the SN is that the Gods are forgetful.
They are not.

 

[TSK.]

Looking back through the SN, at least in the sections pertaining to the seals and gates, I did not find specific reference to timings. Perhaps you could point to the exact spot for the these tired eyes.

it's under the section for each Gate, and specifically the seal (in the original SN). For the lunar gate it's on the 13th day of the moon. Most other Gates it's when that planet is exalted. Mercury it says anytime it's light in the sky. Saturn just says only at night and never see sunlight.

But that's what trips me up. In the second book, Gates of the Necronomicon, like you quoted he says the planetary correspondence is a blind. And later around pg 110 he says he is still going to use the planetary names for the gates, but each planet is actually a reference to one of the stars of the Big Dipper.

Then in the Gates book when he gives the ritual instructions, the only seal with specific creation timing listed is the lunar gate (which is still just the 13th day of the moon). But every other gates seal has no instruction. This is what seems to really splinter the community. Because some people still insist that you should follow the timing and creation instructions of the original book. But if the planetary correspondences are a blind, then wouldn't it be incorrect to use planetary correspondence and timing for the creation of the seals?

But if we accept the authors new premise that planetary is a blind, and the whole thing is stellar, where do we go from there? Do we just assume the lunar instruction of 13th day of the moon is the instruction for all further seals? Or does it even matter anymore?

Really the new book leaves more questions than answers

Post automatically merged: Aug 28, 2024

I weirdly can't seem to edit my last response.

But i want to make a correction to something I said in error.

In the new Gates book it does actually list the same timing for each seal as the SN. For each Gate there is a "Other Information" section where it repeats the color, metal, and planetary timing that was given in the original SN.

But this actually just adds to the confusion because in the new Gates book, under the seal section it now lists stellar attributes of each Gate and seal. The planetary stuff is listed as "Other information" as if its not longer the primary concern. It then follows up with a section specifically about the Stars of the Big Dipper that relate to each gage.


So it sort of feels all over the place. Looking at it now it seems more like we're being given an option between planetary or stellar, rather than an entirely new set of correspondences.

 

[stalkinghyena]

it's under the section for each Gate, and specifically the seal (in the original SN).

Okay yeah, forgot about those - I was looking about for more general instructions overall.

But that's what trips me up. In the second book, Gates of the Necronomicon, like you quoted he says the planetary correspondence is a blind. And later around pg 110 he says he is still going to use the planetary names for the gates, but each planet is actually a reference to one of the stars of the Big Dipper.

As I have yet to fully read the second book, and could use a strong refresher on the first, the only thing I would point out is that the "blind" is more philosophical than it is technical. The paragraph I cited upon skimming may sound mysterious, but there is a broad and long history behind this perspective that has the flavor of a "via negativa" - meaning, a gradual stripping away of symbolism towards essential being and even beyond that too.
As I associate the SN as being written under the influence of the early works of Kenneth Grant (who was later on influenced by it, ironically), I would say in this case that reflections on the "Wisdom of S'lba" in Outer Gateways would be helpful for a deeper understanding of where this goes. You see the same paradox - if all these symbols and correspondences are just illusions, why bother with them?

Technically, a "blind" in a grimoire, as I understand it, is more of a false attribution deliberately implanted to distract and lead to error, unless one is "wise". An example would be that Levi gives the case of encountering a would-be demonolater who, following grimoire instructions, sacrificed a "kid" - that is, a goat. But the magic would not work. Levi himself was relieved at the operators stupidity in not realizing the blind - "kid" was meant in another sense, that is, a human child.

The Big Dipper thing is something I had wondered at since I was a kid. "When the Bear hangs low in the sky" demanded I learn something of astronomy, but I never understood why. In this book

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I learned much later that the Big Dipper was referred to as "Wagon Star" and was associated with Ishtar/Inanna. My perception is that she is the most prominent deity in the book. The notion that most operators do not go beyond the Third Gate (because she "chooses them") smacks of the same old tension implied in other works where the ultimate goal of apotheosis is equated with merging the Absolute in whatever form it is described.

Do we just assume the lunar instruction of 13th day of the moon is the instruction for all further seals? Or does it even matter anymore?

Just to be on the safe side, I would apply astrological correspondences in general as a method of control, using whatever is given in the SN as a primary anchor. There is a lot in the SN that can potentially threaten a magician's sense of control, and these seem deliberately inserted, perhaps as a test of one's Will. Dr. Sledge suggested the SN was crafted as a "booby trap" for novice mages as there are no actual banishing rites in it - though there are exorcisms. There is a sense that one cannot get rid of the evil forces, only stave them off. I will have a better perspective when I read the second book, but I think I can see the plan already. Or more than what I have seen so far.

Really the new book leaves more questions than answers

This really sums up my whole career in toto. I hope what I said can offer some help, but best of luck with your Work.

 

[TSK.]

The Big Dipper thing is something I had wondered at since I was a kid. "When the Bear hangs low in the sky" demanded I learn something of astronomy, but I never understood why. In this book

That is actually what got me interested in the newer Gates book. In my previous magic work there has always been a huge focus on Mithras and his connection to the Big Dipper.

Just to be on the safe side, I would apply astrological correspondences in general as a method of control, using whatever is given in the SN as a primary anchor. There is a lot in the SN that can potentially threaten a magician's sense of control, and these seem deliberately inserted, perhaps as a test of one's Will. Dr. Sledge suggested the SN was crafted as a "booby trap" for novice mages as there are no actual banishing rites in it - though there are exorcisms. There is a sense that one cannot get rid of the evil forces, only stave them off. I will have a better perspective when I read the second book, but I think I can see the plan already. Or more than what I have seen so far.


This really sums up my whole career in toto. I hope what I said can offer some help, but best of luck with your Work.

This is also why the potential of a blind intrigues me. I generally agree with apply astrological correspondences. However this causes some major issues with actually being able to perform anything from the SN if you wanted to. Jupiter is only in exaltation every 12 years or so. So if you happen to have recently missed it, you cant work this grimoire for over a decade. Saturn it never specifically lists a timing, but since all others use exaltation, no where talking about 29 years. So if you have really bad luck, you can only work this grimoire once, maybe twice in your lifetime depending on what you started and what exaltation you might have missed.

But if the correspondences being planetary are a true blind, than those concerns are out the window.

But even then, if you go super literal by the book there is some wiggle room. Jupiter gate doesnt actually say exaltation, it says "when jupiter is strong in the sky". So this opens up exaltation, signs that belong to Jupiter, or possibly even solar conjunctions. Likewise Saturn only actually mentions for instruction that it should never see the light of the sun, so any night could work.

Guess it just depends on how technical, literal, or full on chaosy you want to go