So Who Invented Lies?

[Xenophon]

This forum's own Mr. Jackson has very helpfully established that patriarchs invented Truth to cement their position. Kudos indeed to Andrew and Stonewall's spiritual descendant and namesake. (Pause for applause to die.)

This invites the question, then, of who invented the Lie. Or simply lies in general. Jesus has deposed that Satan is the "father of lies," but since the witness' Father is involved,such testimony cannot be taken at face value. Who then, I ask again, invented the lie? My humility enjoins silence. The floor is open.

 

[Khoren_]

Your mom /jk

Honestly, I think it's an odd take to believe that Truth was invented to enjoin Patriarchy, as the search for "the truth" exists outside of mere patriarchal cultures [citation needed]. But to truly answer your question, the first lie was probably created out of Fear or Survival.

 

[Xenophon]

Your mom /jk

Honestly, I think it's an odd take to believe that Truth was invented to enjoin Patriarchy, as the search for "the truth" exists outside of mere patriarchal cultures [citation needed]. But to truly answer your question, the first lie was probably created out of Fear or Survival.

To be fair, Jackson's thread is aimed at the notion that 1) there is eternal Truth, and ; 2) we can access said Truth; 3) we can verify #2. You find Plato defending all three propositions, but in his Dialogues, he never claims to have actually arrived at #2 and #3. (For which reasons ancient Skeptics often cited Plato as their school's founder, claiming his dialogues were a disingenuous exercise, actually demonstrating Truth was unattainable.) Jackson correctly notes that the notion of Truth, especially revealed Truth has been abused. Though it has been and continues to be abused across the intellectual/spiritual/ political spectrum.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

"The simulacrim is never what hides the truth -- it is the truth that hides the fact that there is none. The simulacrum is true." - Ecclesiastes

Lies are told with words, even obscured reality has the truth that it is obscured reality. Opinions are based off concepts, created by words, and Plato said opinion is the wilderness between knowledge and ignorance. I think this is why nous (I vote gnosis) is so heavily stressed by Plato, direct experience of a tree has more truth to it than the description of a tree (which somehow votes republican and sent a bunch of emails on a government server).

Reality can be constructed by words for those who live by them, and so reality can be twisted to any degree of delusion. The Patriatchy is guilty, sure, but most of the world's history has just been a twisting and whirling slide of madness and misperception, regardless of whos in charge, except for a few lovely spots of isolated cults.

Who made the first lie?

I say God The snake-bodied, lion headed one tho.

 

[Jackson]

Lie/druj is also a central concept in Zoroastrianism, connected with ideas of impurity.

 

[Ziran]

Who is the father of lies? The floor is open.

Uh? God? For the win?

 

[Khoren_]

Uh? God? For the win?

Which god?
God God or the False God

 

[Ziran]

the first lie was probably created out of Fear or Survival.

Just for fun. How about this? The first lie was the first successful primal pick-up line? You know? Two grunts, a wink-wink, and a pair of coconuts? Then.. one thing leads to another. After that? No coconuts. Instead the primitive baby-daddy has moved on to his next conquest.

Grunt-grunt, wink-wink, 2-coconuts, ... , no coconuts
Grunt-grunt, wink-wink, 2-coconuts, ... , no coconuts
Grunt-grunt, wink-wink, 2-coconuts, ... , no coconuts
Etc...

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2024

Which god?
God God or the False God

Technically, I'm talking about the Eternal YHVH, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, creator of heaven and earth. God of the plagues, King David's God, Isaiah's God, Jeremiah's God.

 

[Xenophon]

So far, Ziran is leading the probability sweepstakes with his remark about primordial pickup lines.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

So far, Ziran is leading the probability sweepstakes with his remark about primordial pickup lines.

If everyone is a Buddha, just intersecting points on Indra's net, then that makes the net the first liar!

 

[Xenophon]

If everyone is a Buddha, just intersecting points on Indra's net, then that makes the net the first liar!

You should be a defense attorney. "If it please the court, I submit that Mr. Crooks is himself a victim, yes a pitiable victim. I shall shortly be presenting evidence that The Net made him do it." A built-in entering wedge into the sympathy of every parent who has a Net-head for a kid.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

The Net made him do it.

"If the Net don't fit, you must acquit!" The argument has more validity than a defense case built off of Zimbardo's theories.

Of course the perfect court system would be based off Plato's Guardians, where a select minority roam the streets as Judge, Jurry, and executioners. Naturally most of us enlightened folk would be fit candidates.

 

[Ziran]

"If the Net don't fit, you must acquit!"

Best post of the day... goes to.... ( envelope please? )

The illusive Owl!

 

[Xenophon]

"If the Net don't fit, you must acquit!" The argument has more validity than a defense case built off of Zimbardo's theories.

Of course the perfect court system would be based off Plato's Guardians, where a select minority roam the streets as Judge, Jurry, and executioners. Naturally most of us enlightened folk would be fit candidates.

Candidates for judgeships or for execution? Last I saw of the news, the current regime in an unnamed country south of Canada seems to be roughing out a pilot program for Plato's suggestion.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I idly searched for whether chimpanzees lie to each other, and encountered a paper with a much more interesting statement in it.

"Deception occurs ubiquitously among organisms (including viruses, bacteria, plants, and animals) and facilitates feeding, mating, threat evasion, and other advantages (Trivers 2011). "

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Xenophon]

I idly searched for whether chimpanzees lie to each other, and encountered a paper with a much more interesting statement in it.

"Deception occurs ubiquitously among organisms (including viruses, bacteria, plants, and animals) and facilitates feeding, mating, threat evasion, and other advantages (Trivers 2011). "

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Actually this narrows the search. If lying is thusly ubiquitous, then the lie's author must be either the Demiurge or God Hisself. Which choice takes us right back to age-old religious dilemmas. We seem to have entered a well-trodden cul-de-sac here.

 

[lee smith]

I would posit (tongue in cheek) that the inventor of lies was the first man talking to the first woman in order to get the first push in the bush.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Perhaps, it is a deity. Personally, I believe it was Yahweh himself. However, if we are looking at it from a atheistic or philosophical sense then the only way lies could have came to be is by humans. Humans lie all the tie. It's practically our nature. We cannot deny that we are far from being "honest" creatures.

 

[Xenophon]

Perhaps, it is a deity. Personally, I believe it was Yahweh himself. However, if we are looking at it from a atheistic or philosophical sense then the only way lies could have came to be is by humans. Humans lie all the tie. It's practically our nature. We cannot deny that we are far from being "honest" creatures.

I lived in Southeast Alaska for about a decade. The Tlingit Indians/Native Americans/First People had the belief that Raven, their trickster deity, created the world. Which would account for deceptive practices and a good deal more. Likewise, Stephen Flowers has some intriguing notions on character overlap between Loki and Wotan, which suggests that the impulse to enhance truth stems from high places.

 

[Sabbatius]

The Invention of the Lie:

Caveman: Honestly, Sweetheart, you look great in that pelt!
Cavewoman: Your Loincloth is not too tight, Honey!

And thus, the first lies were made.