Spirits: Generally (Un)Helpful?

[Ancient]

You’ve probably heard the question:
“Is man inherently good, or inherently evil?”

I’d like to pose a similar one:
“Are spirits generally helpful or unhelpful towards humans?”


The question can be taken a step further as well. If we remove intent and look only at the results, are spirit interactions more likely to be beneficial or detrimental? For example, if you were to perform a rite to open yourself up to the average spirit that’s hanging around (let's assume there is an equal probability of encountering any of them, regardless of their type), would it help further your development as a human being? Would the subsequent experiences and changes to your self be likely to help you move through life with greater ease and experience success, or be more likely to tear you down and make it more difficult?

 

[HoldAll]

All we have is traditional magical lore, which basically means hearsay. It's more or less straightforward with angels - they have a reputation of being helpful but have also been called sanctimonious bastards by LHPers for heeding petitions only if they serve a virtuous purpose and further the magician's enlightenment, ascension, etc. The lore says that angels are duty-bound to help us (according to the GoM at least) but love spells, for example will only get fulfilled if the other person is right for you, and if your motive is mainly lust, call up a demon.

Now with demons things are much more complex. If you follow the demonolatry posts on Reddit, you'll find that there is a consensus as to which demon is mostly helpful, which one is capricious and may or not be of assistance and which one will probably ignore but ultimately destroy you for being such an annoying little pest. Of course there is also disagreement; it's a bit like travellers comparing notes about a given country, accounts vary but there are alway discernible trends.

I'm currently struggling with the complex (Neo-Platonic?) philosophy of Frater Acher "Ingenium" in which he makes an interesting point: The traditional attitude of mages towards the spirit world is one of colonisers - we are only after the resources the spirits can offer, and our conjurations are much like "Wham bam thank you, ma'm" affairs; he basically paints magicians as conquistadores whose sole aim is to steal all the gold and enslave the natives, so we're all supposed to feel shocked all of a sudden at the astral atrocities we habitually commit and vow to be good ethical conjurers from now on. However, he does not really describe what such an ethical behaviour might involve and takes refuge in the mysticism of Josephine McCarthy. Are we supposed to politely inquire about a spirit's health first and ask how the grandkids are doing before we present our petitions?

I think it's pointless to assume that spirits will react and behave in the same way as humans, and I have the nagging feeling that fasting, building altars, making offerings, etc. is not much more than a sort of cargo cult we engage in, expecting the spirits to be propitiated (or bribed, depends on how you see it) by such behaviour; ok, it may also be that I personally may find such antics embarrassing, sorry. It's much too early in my magical career to even think about conjuring spirits but right now, I would proceed from the assumption that angels are always helpful provided I behave like a good boy and that with demons anything could happen, so better avoid them.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

I'm still mad at Josephine McCarthy because in her Quarea course, she says that evil spirits lurked in patches of wild garlic. Now I often take a walk where wild garlic grows and the smell always reminded me of spring; now I can only think of her and her stupid claim. It spoiled the experience for me, so would I be beset by evil spirits if I used that herb for cooking or for making pesto out of it? Superstition tends to stick once you hear it, and that may well be true when it comes to the helpfulness of spirits.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I'm still mad at Josephine McCarthy because in her Quarea course, she says that evil spirits lurked in patches of wild garlic. Now I often take a walk where wild garlic grows and the smell always reminded me of spring; now I can only think of her and her stupid claim. It spoiled the experience for me, so would I be beset by evil spirits if I used that herb for cooking or for making pesto out of it?

I think you've misunderstood her! She is saying almost the exact opposite!

Here's the quote, from Apprentice Module 1, Lesson 7: Magical Protection

SMELLS THAT CLEAR

Each country around the world has aromatic plants or tree resins that affect intrusive or aggressive beings by discouraging them from entering a
space.
[...]
An example of a natural solution in nature is one that we will easily recognise, and that is wild garlic. Wild garlic grows in abundance where there is natural death energy in the land. These areas are like portholes into the underworld and they are often heavily haunted, energetically disruptive and generally difficult to learn to live with.
If you live in such an area, grow lots of wild garlic around your boundaries, and always have some hanging and drying in your house: this is where Bram Stoker got his vampire/garlic shtick from: it is a local folk cure."

(my emphasis)

She is saying that wild garlic PROTECTS against death energy, and that is why you see it growing in hostile places, to protect the land. The land protects itself from incursions by aggressive spirits by growing garlic. It is under the heading "smells that clear".

She says that if you're in a place with bad energy, you, too, should plant lots of wild garlic. From this I assume she would be in favour of eating it as well.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

I'm not sure if this will actually help - you already didn't think wild garlic was full of evil spirits, but the idea got stuck in your head, so learning Josephine doesn't believe it either may not be enough to get it unstuck - which was kind of your point

But next time you see some wild garlic you could try to think of it as like a night watchman, keeping the local neighbourhood safe

 

[HoldAll]

I think you've misunderstood her! She is saying almost the exact opposite!

Here's the quote, from Apprentice Module 1, Lesson 7: Magical Protection

SMELLS THAT CLEAR

Each country around the world has aromatic plants or tree resins that affect intrusive or aggressive beings by discouraging them from entering a
space.
[...]
An example of a natural solution in nature is one that we will easily recognise, and that is wild garlic. Wild garlic grows in abundance where there is natural death energy in the land. These areas are like portholes into the underworld and they are often heavily haunted, energetically disruptive and generally difficult to learn to live with.
If you live in such an area, grow lots of wild garlic around your boundaries, and always have some hanging and drying in your house: this is where Bram Stoker got his vampire/garlic shtick from: it is a local folk cure."

(my emphasis)

She is saying that wild garlic PROTECTS against death energy, and that is why you see it growing in hostile places, to protect the land. The land protects itself from incursions by aggressive spirits by growing garlic. It is under the heading "smells that clear".

She says that if you're in a place with bad energy, you, too, should plant lots of wild garlic. From this I assume she would be in favour of eating it as well.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2024

I'm not sure if this will actually help - you already didn't think wild garlic was full of evil spirits, but the idea got stuck in your head, so learning Josephine doesn't believe it either may not be enough to get it unstuck - which was kind of your point

But next time you see some wild garlic you could try to think of it as like a night watchman, keeping the local neighbourhood safe

Wow, I'm eternally grateful that you cleared up that misunderstanding and I'm not kidding, wild garlic and the arrival of spring go together for me, it's a harbinger of hope, so to speak. I must confess that I only skimmed through a few of her lectures, read "wild garlic" and "death energy" and got immediately carried away, stupid of me.

So we've established that garlic protects areas from evil spirits which should be clear to anybody who has ever watched Christopher Lee in an opera cape. Does that mean you shouldn't evoke demons when you've got garlic breath?

Returning to the OP's original topic, that wild garlic tangent would also imply that not all nature spirits are helpful or even just benign, which goes against all NewAge pastel-coloured lovey-dovey doctrine. Anybody here that has experiences with sylphs, dryads, undines and so on? And what about ancestor spirits - are they always helpful or grumpy, spiteful, etc. like some of those dead relatives were in real life?

 

[Pyrokar]

Anybody here that has experiences with sylphs, dryads, undines and so on?

I do.
Firstly im 90% sure it was a nature spirit that both endangered and saved my life when i almost fell off a waterfall
second, Straton-Kent's Elelogap as a warm up to approaching undines proper.

as per the op, i am of the opinion that the lore-accurate spirit interaction (they might help, but not how you thought they would)
is the good way- the spirits take into account your reality is for you. to whoosh your problems away without effort or personal input
robs the caster of conflict, which they could have used to grow and be shaped.
That is to say if a spirit did the bidding and later freed like in Shakespeare's tempest then WE or the magician is the bad guy
or the slave driver.

kind of like Jedi/Sith philosophy, one ebbs and flows with the umbra the other subjugates it gets the job done

this obviously does not apply in the same way when we invoke, having the growth be the goal of the communion with the entity
those kinds of situations would i suppose deppend on the nature of the spirit above all else

 

[Mannimarco]

“Are spirits generally helpful or unhelpful towards humans?”

I don't think this question has an answer. My experience with spirits is that they are individuals, and their interactions with us are unique, at least to a degree. If we undergo change, our relationship with a spirit can change, both negative to positive, and even positive to negative. Or not. Time will tell, but I get a pretty strong impression that several entities are going hate my guts for all eternity, no matter what I do.

Also the idea of "help" can mean such different things from different perspectives. Most entities for most of my time in the occult thought I was a pathetic coward who wouldn't stand up for myself. So their "help" was to attack me until I would fight back. I am a very different person because of this, but I don't think i'll ever be friendly with them again. Qliphothic demons, especially. Interestingly, my western astrological natal chart says i'm a peaceful diplomat, and my chinese astrological sign is the super scrappy rooster, and entities have all expected me to act like the Rooster.

In retrospect the entities who really hated me, pretended to be friendly, but were creating blockages in my energy body, which took years to find and remove.

 

[Ancient]

All we have is traditional magical lore

Frater Acher "Ingenium"

Is magical lore all that we have though? It was this very book of Frater Acher's that brought me to this line of thinking. Remember how McCarthy goes on about the map and the territory not being the same thing? I'm asking this question here on WF because I'm hoping to hear about the territory magicians walk through, not the maps they read. You can very quickly get lost in the lore. It becomes a big game of "Who do you trust?" I'm finding some of the same cynicism I used to apply to the Bible is well suited to analyzing ritual texts and descriptions of spirits. In all of five minutes one can find entirely contradictory information regarding a number of well-known spirit names.

that wild garlic tangent would also imply that not all nature spirits are helpful or even just benign

Exactly! At least not in their intent.

per the op, i am of the opinion that the lore-accurate spirit interaction (they might help, but not how you thought they would)
is the good way- the spirits take into account your reality is for you. to whoosh your problems away without effort or personal input
robs the caster of conflict, which they could have used to grow and be shaped.
That is to say if a spirit did the bidding and later freed like in Shakespeare's tempest then WE or the magician is the bad guy
or the slave driver.

So I think you're saying that spirits generally feel helpful towards us? That they understand the nature of our existence far better than we understand theirs and often like to help us along, even if that means creating/allowing challenges to strengthen us, which from our limited perspective might be interpreted as a nasty or unhelpful thing?

I don't think this question has an answer. My experience with spirits is that they are individuals, and their interactions with us are unique, at least to a degree. If we undergo change, our relationship with a spirit can change, both negative to positive, and even positive to negative. Or not. Time will tell, but I get a pretty strong impression that several entities are going hate my guts for all eternity, no matter what I do.

Also the idea of "help" can mean such different things from different perspectives. Most entities for most of my time in the occult thought I was a pathetic coward who wouldn't stand up for myself. So their "help" was to attack me until I would fight back. I am a very different person because of this, but I don't think i'll ever be friendly with them again. Qliphothic demons, especially. Interestingly, my western astrological natal chart says i'm a peaceful diplomat, and my chinese astrological sign is the super scrappy rooster, and entities have all expected me to act like the Rooster.

In retrospect the entities who really hated me, pretended to be friendly, but were creating blockages in my energy body, which took years to find and remove.

You've reached the crux of my question. I don't think it has an answer either, because "it depends". It really, really depends on the territory and not on the map.

Based on your description and on my own experiences, I think almost any spirit interaction can be helpful, but it really matters how the human handles the situation. The same crises that breaks the psyche of one person may be the crucible that teaches the next one a new skill. Gotta keep your eyes and options open.


Shoutout to a fellow contradicted Rooster. I'm a Libra, and it matches my generally peaceful and kind behavior far more than the Chinese sign. Although I tend to toss most astrological ideas out the window so I've never noticed what spirits thought of it

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I personally believe in angels, have seen one fly past my window, that looked years later an exact copy on one in a illustrated bible I came to possess. I have felt the presence of negative spirits. I have felt the presence of positive spirits, even last noght when thinking of my cat and falling depressive though I know its for the best for her.
I think it is all in the approach.

 

[Pyrokar]

Im saying spirits can be tools or individuals ( which are governed by their own mysterious dogma)
simply achieving contact is no guarantee of involvement, nor even interest, their primary function is to their natures
not to our whims or pleas-which is why we have to rely on authority from the God/s and similar help to have influence at all,
involving them from our side is not the same as if they made a choice to be involved themselves
either dominating or appealing to the entity is a roll of the dice if it works or not
(maybe it works better than one hoped, maybe much worse)

in the general sense i was talking about the case of a magus summoning a spirit for the purpose of solving an issue

them being helpful weather by how we wanted them or how they decide to act is not for the purpose of "helping"
their morality is one sided according to their natures,
it's how they individually believe help (should they choose to) would look like

Help from a demon vs help from an angel is well discussed here, but regardless on the flavor both sides are merely acting
upon what they are. One hammers the nail the other drills a hole?

i guess im yammering by now, to put it bluntly they are neither helpful nor detrimental to us originally
as their existence apart from the meat reality is enough proof of that,
we're the ones crossing the border for our own means-
the spirits have things to gain, and things to lose by communion with us.
an undine as we spoke of them, would like to ascend by communion
(several noble bloodlines claim to be progeny of fairies/spirits like this)
but it could also be made lesser, and hurt or angered enough to curse and kill the magus in terrible fashion.

they like to say "just be nice, respectful and it's fine" but in reality with some it's best to be nice because nothing else will work
for others domination might be the only way regardless of how good you are, it's their nature.

 

[KjEno186]

So I think you're saying that spirits generally feel helpful towards us? That they understand the nature of our existence far better than we understand theirs and often like to help us along, even if that means creating/allowing challenges to strengthen us, which from our limited perspective might be interpreted as a nasty or unhelpful thing?

This discussion, at least on the surface, appears to assume that we have only a material existence, doesn't it? What about the occult understanding that we simultaneously exist on multiple planes of being, suggesting that our spirit bodies are right here, right now doing what they do and have done for aeons, presumably. I guess what I'm getting at is that the discussion lacks a certain depth, don't you think? Perhaps it is not the other spirits that are 'helpful' or not, but our own divided nature, a part of which is extremely focused on the plane of manifestation nearly to the exclusion of our other parts while we are incarnated?

 

[Pyrokar]

to be fair we are the ones making it more than what was asked.
Op is not to blame for that.

if a kid asked -are spirits good or bad for us?
it all becomes simpler, knowing you can't go and dictate Agripa or something
Spirits are everywhere, minding their own business,
They are good for us if we are responsible.
- should i talk to spirits then?
yes, but only after you learn how to do it first.

 

[Ancient]

I personally believe in angels, have seen one fly past my window, that looked years later an exact copy on one in a illustrated bible I came to possess. I have felt the presence of negative spirits. I have felt the presence of positive spirits, even last noght when thinking of my cat and falling depressive though I know its for the best for her.
I think it is all in the approach.

And how do you determine the difference? What makes a positive presence feel positive, and what makes one feel negative?

Im saying spirits can be tools or individuals ( which are governed by their own mysterious dogma)
simply achieving contact is no guarantee of involvement, nor even interest, their primary function is to their natures
not to our whims or pleas-which is why we have to rely on authority from the God/s and similar help to have influence at all,
involving them from our side is not the same as if they made a choice to be involved themselves
either dominating or appealing to the entity is a roll of the dice if it works or not
(maybe it works better than one hoped, maybe much worse)

in the general sense i was talking about the case of a magus summoning a spirit for the purpose of solving an issue

them being helpful weather by how we wanted them or how they decide to act is not for the purpose of "helping"
their morality is one sided according to their natures,
it's how they individually believe help (should they choose to) would look like

Help from a demon vs help from an angel is well discussed here, but regardless on the flavor both sides are merely acting
upon what they are. One hammers the nail the other drills a hole?

i guess im yammering by now, to put it bluntly they are neither helpful nor detrimental to us originally
as their existence apart from the meat reality is enough proof of that,
we're the ones crossing the border for our own means-
the spirits have things to gain, and things to lose by communion with us.
an undine as we spoke of them, would like to ascend by communion
(several noble bloodlines claim to be progeny of fairies/spirits like this)
but it could also be made lesser, and hurt or angered enough to curse and kill the magus in terrible fashion.

they like to say "just be nice, respectful and it's fine" but in reality with some it's best to be nice because nothing else will work
for others domination might be the only way regardless of how good you are, it's their nature.

I'm seeing a very human-centric view here, I think. Would your answer change if I asked you to consider the question through the lens of animism? In this worldview we interact with spirits absolutely everywhere, not just when a magician performs a rite to make contact.
Reading this I also get the impression that the "personality" of a spirit is static. They are a force of nature, will act this way and only and always this way. Something about this feels off to me. I have seen many times that we should treat spirits as individuals in a similar way to humans. Yet a static personality would never, ever be interested in dialogue or communication. If growth is not possible, why would energy be expended in that direction? Would all spirits be static or dynamic, or might there be differences among the various group-types or even among individuals within groups? i.e) Perhaps deities are capable of personal growth and evolution, but not elemental spirits?

I guess what I'm getting at is that the discussion lacks a certain depth, don't you think?

Then you haven't read very closely, have you? Upon careful re-examination you'll find that the passage of mine you quoted does not represent my viewpoint. It is a statement asking for clarification from pyrokar, basically saying "Is this what you meant?". I really enjoy pyro's contributions, but I have seen more concise writing from 12 year old Rebecca at my local youth group. I wanted to make sure I didn't misinterpret Please do not mistake such an idea for any philosophy either practiced or preached by me. This thread is a seed. You are intended to water it, not step on it.

Have you caught the manifold questions underlying this topic? You've begun to approach the concepts I was hoping for by mentioning "our own divided nature". You might also consider that when I mention something like "success in life" I am referring to the totality of our existence, including any various planes or levels of spirituality beyond the material. You seem to have made some assumptions about me here that frankly, I bristle at.

to be fair we are the ones making it more than what was asked.
Op is not to blame for that.

if a kid asked -are spirits good or bad for us?
it all becomes simpler, knowing you can't go and dictate Agripa or something
Spirits are everywhere, minding their own business,
They are good for us if we are responsible.
- should i talk to spirits then?
yes, but only after you learn how to do it first.

Much as I dislike being considered infantile, well done!
This shift of perspective into the experiential and out of the historical lore is what I am hoping to encourage.


Now that we've covered some of the more basic points we can dive into an actionable line of inquiry. We all seem to agree that the result of a spirit interaction or relationship is highly dependent on the intent and methods of the magical operator. How then, should we engage with spirits in our daily and magical lives?

Many people here are in the banish, banish, banish category. Usually before & after every ritual, and often once or twice daily even when major work is not being done. I disagree entirely. I try to treat local spirits the same way I treat wildlife. I would not chase an animal out of my yard and prevent it from coming back unless that animal was causing harm to me and mine in some way. I consider the space as shared between us, and as such I try to be mindful that there may be more than flesh and blood living on my property and in my home.

Outside of daily life, in ritual I have tried varying degrees of expressing dominance or friendliness. In all honesty I haven't noticed much of a difference between the approaches. It makes me wonder if a formal ritual negates the need for some of the usual pleasantries.

 

[KjEno186]

You seem to have made some assumptions about me here that frankly, I bristle at.

My sincere apologies.

 

[Pyrokar]

i feel like im hogging the whole thread so i'll respond proper in a little while later
so there's time for others to present their perspectives.

i am though on the prep side of cultivating a long term "relationship" so pretty invested

 

[Mannimarco]

I think almost any spirit interaction can be helpful, but it really matters how the human handles the situation.

Keyword is almost. No matter what the rest of the occult experiences, or says they experience, there will always be that one outlier, that will love or hate you no matter what you do. Much like other humans, I suppose.

 

[Romolo]

Interesting thread.

Following the framework of radical otherness proposed by Frater Acher in Ingenium (mentioned earlier), I would say ”being helpful” is something that comes quite late in the magician-spirit relationship. From my experience working with (nameless) nature elementals, there is first a phase of curiosity, observation and play. This can evolve into mutual trust, and gifts or trade of services.

At the other end of the spectrum (following the Solomonic tradition), I believe the spirit summoned “at will” will mirror certain aspects that are present inside the magician. An accidental cut in the finger or creepy pareidolia can quickly run out of control, especially because values of serving/obeying are engrained in the relationship right from the start.

 

[Shaman]

From my experience, they are more unhelpful. But they can do other things well, just if you ask for material stuff they usually don't help.