Superpower

[sasoriakasuna]

Do you have any superpowers? For example, controlling the movement of an object? Just spontaneously combusting, using fingers to ignite?

Paimon does not grant me that kind of power... yet. But he has managed to grant me the ability to know when I should feel pity for the parents of someone whose son is the absolute example of mental retardation.

 

[Nembra]

You did not get my point, there is a difference between debating something like a religion, versus something like Magic which many practitioners approach in a very scientific way,

let’s take remote viewing, do you think someones keeps hallucinating and just assumes he did it ?

for a magician to be working on that, he checks for example if he can get real information, without having access to them,

When he achieves that, the debate or science are deemed secondary, nothing will convince him otherwise,

so if this person reads your comment, he will not be like : wait he has a point maybe i hallucinated

He will just know you never had the experience, scientifically what happened for him to remove view ? He may not know. And that’s irrelevant to the reality of it.

Many magic practices even if hard to understand scientifically, can prove being real through experience in a very scientific approach,

The only remaining point then is : why those people who remote view for example will not just appear before you to prove to you

this questions usually come from a person who is not practiting magic at those levels,

it just does not work like that, the situation in complex and for several reasons people having those will not prove to you,

it is like seing a billionaire and telling him show me your bank statements, let me see if you are truly a billionaire,

i do not think someone will show you his bank statements,

magic is even more personal, and there is high risk related to displaying any superpower,

Let’s take remote viewing as an example, basically, if you have a friend that proves that to you, you will instantly know your privacy is completely gone,

now imagine his entire circle, which company will want to hire a guy that is confirmed remote viewer ? And the CEO knows this guy can just sit in meditation and keep having an eye on him.

no one will onboard him.

it is not like the movies where if one displays that people will consider him a Saint or whatever, he will literally be considered very dangerous.

and there is no going back, even if he loses the ability, people will not trust him, so he will permanently burn his image.

add to the above, everyone in the circle of that Mage will be spell begging him, asking him for help in this and that, he will regret the very day he showed any real ability.

so for a person who experienced some real superpower,

if you tell him science denies, he will say the scientists are wrong, no debate needed.

experience is more potent than any science,

lets keep the remote view example, this can be verified, for one who verified this, he will be impossible to be shaken.

That is all weirdly presuming that those powers do actually exist and that the way practitioners approach them is actually scientific. And remote viewing is a rather dishonest choice of an example, information flows subtly through the memetic ecosystem in ways that are very clearly far beyond the reach of contemporary psychology. Pick a discipline that is actually known to be well-understood. What about pyrokinesis? Do you think someone actually ever produced fire from his fingertips? Or perhaps telekinesis? There is a copious prize for scientifically demonstrating it even in a very harmless capacity that won't make anyone lose their job.

 

[lightning]

the way practitioners approach them is actually scientific

Thats what every serious practitioner does. Unless one wants to be deluded.

There is a copious prize for scientifically demonstrating it even in a very harmless capacity that won't make anyone lose their job.

Its because you assume the one having the ability is an average joe walking in the street and upon hearing there is a prize he will just run there to get it,

or you assume if he has the ability, he should start doing tricks, join a circus, or whatever, the occult is very serious, it is not at all about preaching, you treat this like a religion, you want someone to prove, its the other way around, if anything, from my experience there is a tendency of gatekeeping in the occult, rather than preaching, if you read history, many tried to hide the knowledge,

You also position yourself above those having the abilities, you want to sit on a throne and them coming proving to you, because you feel like if anyone have it he will just come now in replies and finish the debate, and because no one did then no one have it,

The whole framing is wrong,

what is happening here, is instead of you doing the work and seing for yourself if the Path is real, you instead want people to go walk the path do the hard work and then come and prove to you through ways unrelated to how they achieved what they have achieved,

whoever has those abilities most likely know nothing about how it occurs exactly scientifically, for you to want to make the debate scientific, is beyond the question: is it true or not, you want the scientific explanation, which may not exist even if the ability exists.

If no one proved it to you, it has nothing to do with whether it exists or not, if you interested in it, read books on it, see someone who claims it, research if its fake then see another, make your own judgement,

If you know the truth of things based solely on science is very limited, you need to learn to approach the subject from different aspects

the scientific and ´logical’ approach, makes you bound to having to make the binary choices, you become rigid,

In some debates that are purely mental this rigidity is useful, however, when we are talking about experiences some have,

It just translates the level the initiate is currently at.

For example, if one says there is no existence of spiritual realm, those who experience it will just think , ok so he never experienced it, even if he presents the most sophisticated arguments on why it does not exist.

if someone makes a strong book on why telekinesis is fake ,

those who have it will just be sure that this person may be not credible in his judgements even if his points are strong,

so matters in the occult, sometimes are beyond logic and science. In the sense they can contradict what one knows, but it won’t contradict logic and science, it will contradict ones judgment, science is always evolving. And there is logical explanation for everything.

 

[Nembra]

Thats what every serious practitioner does. Unless one wants to be deluded.


Its because you assume the one having the ability is an average joe walking in the street and upon hearing there is a prize he will just run there to get it,

or you assume if he has the ability, he should start doing tricks, join a circus, or whatever, the occult is very serious, it is not at all about preaching, you treat this like a religion, you want someone to prove, its the other way around, if anything, from my experience there is a tendency of gatekeeping in the occult, rather than preaching, if you read history, many tried to hide the knowledge,

You also position yourself above those having the abilities, you want to sit on a throne and them coming proving to you, because you feel like if anyone have it he will just come now in replies and finish the debate, and because no one did then no one have it,

The whole framing is wrong,

what is happening here, is instead of you doing the work and seing for yourself if the Path is real, you instead want people to go walk the path do the hard work and then come and prove to you through ways unrelated to how they achieved what they have achieved,

whoever has those abilities most likely know nothing about how it occurs exactly scientifically, for you to want to make the debate scientific, is beyond the question: is it true or not, you want the scientific explanation, which may not exist even if the ability exists.

If no one proved it to you, it has nothing to do with whether it exists or not, if you interested in it, read books on it, see someone who claims it, research if its fake then see another, make your own judgement,

If you know the truth of things based solely on science is very limited, you need to learn to approach the subject from different aspects

the scientific and ´logical’ approach, makes you bound to having to make the binary choices, you become rigid,

In some debates that are purely mental this rigidity is useful, however, when we are talking about experiences some have,

It just translates the level the initiate is currently at.

For example, if one says there is no existence of spiritual realm, those who experience it will just think , ok so he never experienced it, even if he presents the most sophisticated arguments on why it does not exist.

if someone makes a strong book on why telekinesis is fake ,

those who have it will just be sure that this person may be not credible in his judgements even if his points are strong,

so matters in the occult, sometimes are beyond logic and science. In the sense they can contradict what one knows, but it won’t contradict logic and science, it will contradict ones judgment, science is always evolving. And there is logical explanation for everything.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm basing my position solely on lack of evidence. While within the "scientific" approach you unreasonably presume all so-called "serious practitioners" have this would be an entirely sufficient reason to discard such claims, I actually have even stronger arguments.

I have done the work and seen the "Path" is not in fact real. I know many magical theories that are claimed to produce effects starkly contradicting the most notable patterns of nature and they all fail to meet standards of reason alone, all the evindence only supports it. Experience lies in the most intricate ways, logic does not.

 

[lightning]

You seem to be under the impression that I'm basing my position solely on lack of evidence

I am not under the impression, you basically do not have a super power, and also, you never ever encountered a person who has it, so you quitted the experience route and wanted to make of this an intellectual debate, while in fact if many magicians go to a doctor they will be diagnosed with schizophrenia lol, ´i talk to Gods and to Angels and Demons’ who will take this seriously?

this is real, it is not impression.

So your opinion, is armchair philosophy.

I am curious, how long did you train for such abilities? Or did you just read about them?

also do you have the basic abilities ? Did you develop the smaller ones ?

can you meditate for an hour?

i hope you be honest,

for telekinesis as an example did you train the chakras needed in that?

do you even believe a Chakra to exist, because now i am skeptical about your stance,

do you believe in Magic ?

I actually have even stronger arguments.

You still want to make this about arguments, its not about arguments.

I have done the work and seen the "Path" is not in fact real

You could not develop a super power, that is not a reason for it to not exist. And another reason of why people are secretive about them.

I know many magical theories

Your whole way of approaching this, it is like if you are dealing with something imaginary, ‘magical theories’, i do not follow theories, either something works or does it, its facts only, not theories.

they all fail to meet standards of reason alone, all the evindence only supports it

It is not about reason or evidence or intellect. Those all bow down to experience.

if i take those same claimed ´theories’ who fail to meet standards of reason, and they work for me, then they will turn instantly to facts, irrelevant to your arguments against them,

and here i am talking about the core, if a ´theory’ produces a specific experience to me that is claimed to be achieved through that ´theory’,

then its all perfect, and its working. All arguments against the theory will be futile, unless someone is presenting me with a better model that produce a better experience.

Experience lies in the most intricate ways, logic does not.

If i burn a paper with my finger, i will instantly be above every scientists who claim this impossible, since i am 1 step ahead, i know its real, they do not know.

if some other person fails to reproduce it, he failed.

you are just forcing me into adopting the model of old soul new soul,

maybe new souls are just not destined to even consider that a certain ability may exist,

you do believe in magic i speculate ?

if yes, then to what extent does magic work ?

push the boundaries and see for yourself, do not reach out to an ability that requires advanced requirements, like how many years did you meditate ? And how was your daily routine, i hope you get honest, have you ever felt the existence of a chakra ? Like a throbbing third eye for example, or solar plexus or crown chakra and such.

did you ever enter deep states of bliss caused by spiritual work ?

You will gain confidence with time, and also, to know to which extent that can go, is basically a matter of how big ones thinking is,

the truth sets free, and freedom banish all weaknesses and whats left is a God walking in human form.

if i knew a human is only what he appears to be, flesh and such with no divine potential,

i will too find it weird that this specie can have a superpower.

do you believe in reality of spiritual beings ? That cannot be seen by most people ?

because at this point i do not even know if you believe in the most basic things, because if you don’t, then its impossible to argue about superpowers or whatever i will just sound like an anime lover, we should first talk about something more basic.

again, 1 experience will make all books against the matter instantly irrelevant.

and also, many in the forum have experienced lower degrees of super powers, tasting that; they start wanting more, and more , and more, and also believing in the light at the end of the t

when your limiting beliefs get challenged and your surpass them few times, the initiate becomes more and more open minded.

now i have a question, what do you want a person to do for you to believe those superpowers exist? i need to know

1. You want scientific explanation and arguments ? The one having the ability may not have that even if he has the ability.

2. You want someone to appear and use this superpower ability to do tricks for you to believe ? Like the Prophets, when the tribe did not believe they do a miracle. Then state it, maybe someone will, but if no one does,it does not mean by definition that no one have it.

is there another way ?

because the idea of why miracles disappeared now that we have cameras, is funny but not really true, and it projects the model of religions unto magicians,

the Prophets were preaching and used miracles, ´they were eager to prove ´, so now, if a magician have an ability, he too should start attention seeking and preaching and proving, the reasoning is not right,

do you have an ability ? Be it small or big ? Did you taste something real with magic ? Please answer with a yes or no to this, it can only be ´ i can influence events in life occasionally ´ or similar,

if you did, then try to convince skepticals about this, see what you will face.

 

[ROL13]

Do you have any superpowers? For example, controlling the movement of an object? Just spontaneously combusting, using fingers to ignite?

Hi! The closest thing to this is the "Senteris Method Training"—which, incidentally, is quite expensive—but it teaches various techniques for projecting directed energy. In my opinion, it is possible to affect matter on both a small scale (a single mind applying its will) and a large scale (multiple minds focusing their will on the same purpose). I believe there is always some form of interference when someone who has mastered these techniques faces a group of skeptics; to my mind, an "openness to the possibility" that a thaumaturgic act might occur acts as a facilitator for the energy to flow. And the more people mentally support the thaumaturgy (including healing, etc.), the more powerful it ultimately becomes. That is why laboratory experiments are so unstable and fail to yield dramatic, paradigm-shifting results—although, back in the 70s, there were a couple of guys who really baffled the CIA: Pat Price and Ingo Swann.

 

[Nembra]

I am not under the impression, you basically do not have a super power, and also, you never ever encountered a person who has it, so you quitted the experience route and wanted to make of this an intellectual debate, while in fact if many magicians go to a doctor they will be diagnosed with schizophrenia lol, ´i talk to Gods and to Angels and Demons’ who will take this seriously?

this is real, it is not impression.

So your opinion, is armchair philosophy.

I am curious, how long did you train for such abilities? Or did you just read about them?

also do you have the basic abilities ? Did you develop the smaller ones ?

can you meditate for an hour?

i hope you be honest,

for telekinesis as an example did you train the chakras needed in that?

do you even believe a Chakra to exist, because now i am skeptical about your stance,

do you believe in Magic ?

You still want to make this about arguments, its not about arguments.

You could not develop a super power, that is not a reason for it to not exist. And another reason of why people are secretive about them.

Your whole way of approaching this, it is like if you are dealing with something imaginary, ‘magical theories’, i do not follow theories, either something works or does it, its facts only, not theories.

It is not about reason or evidence or intellect. Those all bow down to experience.

if i take those same claimed ´theories’ who fail to meet standards of reason, and they work for me, then they will turn instantly to facts, irrelevant to your arguments against them,

and here i am talking about the core, if a ´theory’ produces a specific experience to me that is claimed to be achieved through that ´theory’,

then its all perfect, and its working. All arguments against the theory will be futile, unless someone is presenting me with a better model that produce a better experience.

If i burn a paper with my finger, i will instantly be above every scientists who claim this impossible, since i am 1 step ahead, i know its real, they do not know.

if some other person fails to reproduce it, he failed.

you are just forcing me into adopting the model of old soul new soul,

maybe new souls are just not destined to even consider that a certain ability may exist,

you do believe in magic i speculate ?

if yes, then to what extent does magic work ?

push the boundaries and see for yourself, do not reach out to an ability that requires advanced requirements, like how many years did you meditate ? And how was your daily routine, i hope you get honest, have you ever felt the existence of a chakra ? Like a throbbing third eye for example, or solar plexus or crown chakra and such.

did you ever enter deep states of bliss caused by spiritual work ?

You will gain confidence with time, and also, to know to which extent that can go, is basically a matter of how big ones thinking is,

the truth sets free, and freedom banish all weaknesses and whats left is a God walking in human form.

if i knew a human is only what he appears to be, flesh and such with no divine potential,

i will too find it weird that this specie can have a superpower.

do you believe in reality of spiritual beings ? That cannot be seen by most people ?

because at this point i do not even know if you believe in the most basic things, because if you don’t, then its impossible to argue about superpowers or whatever i will just sound like an anime lover, we should first talk about something more basic.

again, 1 experience will make all books against the matter instantly irrelevant.

and also, many in the forum have experienced lower degrees of super powers, tasting that; they start wanting more, and more , and more, and also believing in the light at the end of the t

when your limiting beliefs get challenged and your surpass them few times, the initiate becomes more and more open minded.

now i have a question, what do you want a person to do for you to believe those superpowers exist? i need to know

1. You want scientific explanation and arguments ? The one having the ability may not have that even if he has the ability.

2. You want someone to appear and use this superpower ability to do tricks for you to believe ? Like the Prophets, when the tribe did not believe they do a miracle. Then state it, maybe someone will, but if no one does,it does not mean by definition that no one have it.

is there another way ?

because the idea of why miracles disappeared now that we have cameras, is funny but not really true, and it projects the model of religions unto magicians,

the Prophets were preaching and used miracles, ´they were eager to prove ´, so now, if a magician have an ability, he too should start attention seeking and preaching and proving, the reasoning is not right,

do you have an ability ? Be it small or big ? Did you taste something real with magic ? Please answer with a yes or no to this, it can only be ´ i can influence events in life occasionally ´ or similar,

if you did, then try to convince skepticals about this, see what you will face.

This is certainly a lot of really horribly formatted text. I'm starting to think you're doing it on purpose.

If you burn that paper it is one experience of one person against a gargantuan number of experiences that went into forming scientific theories. Because that's what they are: optimally abstracted experience.

And all bows to reason because all that you can ever speak, think, name or conceptualise - all that is to your mind - has not a single component other than abstraction, which is governed by reason. If not for reason there would not be any possibility for you not only to express your silly ideas in symbolic language but even to have them in the first place. Experience is an undivided stream of existence. Carving it into objects like "paper" or "fire" is the essence of reason. Saying that literally anything is "beyond reason" is a purest falsity in itself.

So there is no qualitative difference between your "experience" and a scientific theory, and you are doubly confused. On one side because nothing that exists to you is experience, merely an abstraction; on the other side because the theory is no less an abstraction of experience than your observations, only a far more robust one. Whether the fact that something would "work for you" makes it acceptable as true is yet to be decided by comparison of sigma values between hypotheses about the structure of your potential power and ones about structure of your potential hallucination.

You at the same time both are asking about my experiences and making a lot of strange assumptions about them. I don't like what this kind of bragging does to a conversation, but I don't think there is much to salvage in the first place. I have participated in miracles far beyond most of the petty spellcraft discussed here. I have overheard the stories angels tell to each other when they meet on cosmic crossroads - this one took over a decade of initiation. With the very current you're now dismissing as "skeptical" I have taken gods apart to steal their secrets. Logic is my seat of power from which I command spirits. At no point have I needed to accept those silly party tricks you're trying to argue for here.

 

[lightning]

This is certainly a lot of really horribly formatted text

Thats what they told to many geniuses in history. Thank you !

If you burn that paper it is one experience of one person against a gargantuan number of experiences that went into forming scientific theories. Because that's what they are: optimally abstracted experience

that is actually a fallacy
Argumentum ad populum is an informal logical fallacy that claims a proposition is true or good simply because a large number of people believe it or do it.

If 1000 people do X and get Y.
it does not mean if i do X i will too get Y by definition.

You want to use statistics and statistics are very lame, they only point to the norms.

the occult is beyond the norms by definition. i gave you the example, if someone tells a groupe of people he talks to Angels or demons they will laugh at him or consider him insane.

he may be the only one in his entire area having this, does it invalidate the experience because ALL the others around do not have it ?

so based on logics, which you love, your point is invalid.

I am not mentally insane, nor are many advanced practitioners, if one who is serious about his advancement get an experience and wants to see if its valid there are many ways of knowing, if there is no way to know he will be able to give it a percentage like maybe 80% or something.

For you to say, if one burns a paper with his finger, its still not valid because only 1 had it, like, what do you mean? Should we assume he is insane and just put him in a hospital?

lets keep the same exact experience, we add to it an observer, you see with your own eyes now the experience, 100% real, will you believe or not, under 100% scientific norms,

if you don’t its a problem, so basically you cannot be convinced unless the scientists explain to hou how its done, of affirm if,

if you accept its a problem again, because based on your same argument, you are only 2 people, lets say 10 people, you and the practitioner and 8 scientists, you are 10 people, you cannot validate to billions of people a supernatural experience, since as you said, number counts.

if you say this will be valid, its also a problem, because thats what i have been telling you, if some advanced magicians have behind doors tested certain things and found its real, then its real, they approached with scientific approach, like should they be Dr Joe wearing glasses and having mice around for you to believe them?

Its actually easy to test magic experiences scientifically if one wants to test himself.

I will approach same point from another perspective,

you said

If you burn that paper it is one experience of one person against a gargantuan number of experiences that went into forming scientific theories

With the same exact logic,

your mental reasoning is to be discarded, your brain came with a conclusion, that is 1 mental EXPERIENCE,

against exponential number of mental experiences,

we can read history and you will find humans used to believe X then now it will be laughable to believe the same,

so the brain is not a valid way to determine whats right and whats wrong,

In the same way humanity was wrong millions of times at bigger and small scales,

the same way we can now be wrong, so your brain experience that gave you the result that superpowers dont exist, is just 1 experience, based on a tool ( the brain ) that have a record of many times giving us false conclusions.

so based on what you say, you will have two problems.
1. The brain cannot be a valid tool, exercising the intellect is an experience that gave us tons of errors through history. So the brain is not fully valid.

2. If you come up with the most robust reasoning on why supernatural abilities dont exist, then it will be 1 brain experience, we still need many brains to have same conclusion to be able to consider it.

3. when that big number is gathered, it will turn into a logical fallacy, argumentum ad populum.

so basically you are stuck, you cannot get out of that. Impossible.

And all bows to reason because all that you can ever speak, think, name or conceptualise - all that is to your mind - has not a single component other than abstraction, which is governed by reason.

The tool you used to write this, has a bad record, it gave us good stuff, but many times it made errors, so as long as you are using that tool to argue with me, convincing me or not won’t change anything, since i interact with same tool, that i do not trust, not out of skepticism,

this is science, the brain is not God or whatever, its just a tool we use that we can develop and that can many times give false conclusions and such, not to talk about its limitations. So what you said here, you assume like if we will max out logics and such if we use out brain correctly and thats false.

Saying that literally anything is "beyond reason" is a purest falsity in itself.

I hope you do not contradict yourself in next parts of your reply, but since you use only the brain, i speculate you will, let’s see

Whether the fact that something would "work for you" makes it acceptable as true is yet to be decided by comparison of sigma values between hypotheses about the structure of your potential power and ones about structure of your potential hallucination.

Lol this is not what i said, you try to dilute my idea

You try to make of it subjective,

when i talked about theory becoming a fact, i meant, lets say a Mage told me you do this and this and you will be able to remote view,

If i do it and i remote view in a verified way, then its not anymore theory,

thats as clear as day, if you deny this, then you have to start doubting if the door you see with your eyes is a door or a car, and if the phone you holding now is a phone or hallucination or some cow or whatever,

remote viewing and many other abilities can be as real as what you call real. It is not subjective,

if i see you and describe you and tell you details that i cannot know, this is not a mental experience or subjective, this is 100% real. It is as real as the physical world, and as real as the mice in the science labs.

Many abilities are so real that doubting them will result in doubting your own senses. Not in the sense that your senses tricked you, but you will start doubting the very reality you experiences through the senses.

So my point was about objective reality, and you made it seem like if i talked about something subjective.

"work for you"

So its not about ´work for you ´ , i am talking about the ability itself that gets VERIFIED.

i need to target this from another perspective you take down this point,

lets say we give a normal person who is not a scientist a Scientist Lab, and all the materials there, and all the studies, and all scientific papers and such,

we will leave him in Lab for 1 year will he come up with something ?

he needs years of experience and study to be able to lead something big there,

so he wont be able to do it,

does it mean the lab ´works only for the one who was woking in it’, and if ´it works for him’ it does not mean it will ´work for another ´ ?

the lab is subjective, it has nothing to do with working for this man or this other man,

if someone cannot get something out of it then he is just not meeting the requirements,

it is the same for Magic, there are things that need requirements,

if one who never practiced comes and tries, he will fail, it does not mean necessarily, ´it did not work for him’, he just does not meet requirements,

There are cases where a thing just may not work but this probability exist both for a Magic framework or a Science Lab, we can offer a scientists a lab and still he will just be feeding Mice there, there is no guarantee he will come up with invention.

that being said, do not rub Magic of the Subjective reality it has in several ways.

You at the same time both are asking about my experiences and making a lot of strange assumptions about them

You got bothered by me asking if you feel a chakra, and you want someone who experience a supernatural ability to accept you asking about it?

and you DO make assumptions, you say it does not exist, so what you disliked me doing, you are doing the exact same.

I have participated in miracles far beyond most of the petty spellcraft discussed here.

Thats a checkmate, you participated in miracles ?

A miracle is an extraordinary event that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws and is often attributed to a divine or supernatural power

You spent many replies talking about scientific approaches and how i should not assume something beyond whats scientific exists,

And Now you Say you experienced things that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws ? And that is supernatural?

I have overheard the stories angels tell to each other when they meet on cosmic crossroads - this one took over a decade of initiation. With the very current you're now dismissing as "skeptical" I have taken gods apart to steal their secrets.

Congratulations, you just made your whole case crumble, so all what you have said about things having to conform to science and such, can be used against you here.

you argued against super natural abilities, and you are claiming them now and claiming miracles.

you are saying why those with supernatural abilities do not display them,

you did not display any to us watching,

every single thing you said now is directed at you, otherwise you will not be coherent.

Logic is my seat of power from which I command spirits.

what is the scientific proof of that ? Before we talk about existence of supernatural abilities

Let’s take what you experienced and you talk about as real,

so what is the stance of science toward spirits, and what are the proofs, what do you mean you command them you have like legions and you give them orders ? Whats the proof of that,

can you send me like 2 spirits i really need them currently, it will also serve as a proof that you truly command them,

or it wont work for me ? You command them…

I can take your same ´logical’ stance now and block you on this.

so i believe this came to an end, thank you for your replies, i enjoyed this debate with you ! Have a wonderful day!

 

[Nembra]

What the hell, you're using enter more often than your brain anyway, let's go line by line.

Thats what they told to many geniuses in history. Thank you !

that is actually a fallacy
Argumentum ad populum is an informal logical fallacy that claims a proposition is true or good simply because a large number of people believe it or do it.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy when there exists a better standard of discerning the truth. In this case you've claimed that experience trumps all other cards, so you don't actually have any line that would poise your experience as of higher quality than any other experience. For my argument to work, you should notice, I really only need one person with experience positively contradicting your own.

You want to use statistics and statistics are very lame, they only point to the norms.

No, I don't. Comparing numbers is not statistics, and as I already said it's not even that necessary.

the occult is beyond the norms by definition. i gave you the example, if someone tells a groupe of people he talks to Angels or demons they will laugh at him or consider him insane.

This is opinion not experience.

he may be the only one in his entire area having this, does it invalidate the experience because ALL the others around do not have it ?

Oh, you can't even bring yourself to approach what I'm saying with basic honesty. I'm not saying that experience is invalidated by other people not having it. I'm saying that experiences can be positively contradictory, as is the case now. Either the entire set of experiences packed into physics is authentic or your experience of pirokinesis (which, by the way, you don't even really have) is, both can't be true at the same time.

I am not mentally insane, nor are many advanced practitioners, if one who is serious about his advancement get an experience and wants to see if its valid there are many ways of knowing, if there is no way to know he will be able to give it a percentage like maybe 80% or something.

For you to say, if one burns a paper with his finger, its still not valid because only 1 had it, like, what do you mean? Should we assume he is insane and just put him in a hospital?

We should assume that he is under delusion. That doesn't necessarily mean insanity, people are wrong about what they see all the time - often on purpose.

lets keep the same exact experience, we add to it an observer, you see with your own eyes now the experience, 100% real, will you believe or not, under 100% scientific norms,

It would have to be measured how likely I am to hallucinate and compared against the likeliness of hypotheses allowing for that occurence. I'm very much willing to accept that I hallucinate if it is more likely than I do than not.

if you don’t its a problem, so basically you cannot be convinced unless the scientists explain to hou how its done, of affirm if,

In other words I can't be convinced to something that is proven false.

if you accept its a problem again, because based on your same argument, you are only 2 people, lets say 10 people, you and the practitioner and 8 scientists, you are 10 people, you cannot validate to billions of people a supernatural experience, since as you said, number counts.

I have not.

if you say this will be valid, its also a problem, because thats what i have been telling you, if some advanced magicians have behind doors tested certain things and found its real, then its real, they approached with scientific approach, like should they be Dr Joe wearing glasses and having mice around for you to believe them?

That's the main problem here, you're presuming that your thesis is true to form hypotheticals. This whole argument only works if you are already right, making it the useless kind of circular. This line can't be used to discern whether you're right or wrong.

With the same exact logic,

your mental reasoning is to be discarded, your brain came with a conclusion, that is 1 mental EXPERIENCE,

There are like three kinds of things in general, and logic and experience actually lie in different of those categories.

against exponential number of mental experiences,

Numbers can't be exponential. Functions can.

we can read history and you will find humans used to believe X then now it will be laughable to believe the same,

so the brain is not a valid way to determine whats right and whats wrong,

Brain maybe not, but logic is. People were wrong because they did not apply logic. It's really that simple. The following statements don't work based on that, so I'm skipping them

The tool you used to write this, has a bad record, it gave us good stuff, but many times it made errors, so as long as you are using that tool to argue with me, convincing me or not won’t change anything, since i interact with same tool, that i do not trust, not out of skepticism,

this is science, the brain is not God or whatever, its just a tool we use that we can develop and that can many times give false conclusions and such, not to talk about its limitations. So what you said here, you assume like if we will max out logics and such if we use out brain correctly and thats false.

It is a tool that measures its own effectiveness. It's not God but you have literally nothing else.

when i talked about theory becoming a fact, i meant, lets say a Mage told me you do this and this and you will be able to remote view,

If i do it and i remote view in a verified way, then its not anymore theory,

thats as clear as day, if you deny this, then you have to start doubting if the door you see with your eyes is a door or a car, and if the phone you holding now is a phone or hallucination or some cow or whatever,

This is exactly what I do. Practicality is not a valid ontological argument.

remote viewing and many other abilities can be as real as what you call real. It is not subjective,

Everything is real, just some statements are false.

if i see you and describe you and tell you details that i cannot know, this is not a mental experience or subjective, this is 100% real. It is as real as the physical world, and as real as the mice in the science labs.

Yeah, but you can essentially do that without breaking laws of physics unlike the stupid fire thing. There's memetics and synchronicity and all kinds of subtle phenomena that can carry such information.

The following section is too tedious to make make sense, probably the same thing again with some worse metaphor.

So its not about ´work for you ´ , i am talking about the ability itself that gets VERIFIED.

i need to target this from another perspective you take down this point,

lets say we give a normal person who is not a scientist a Scientist Lab, and all the materials there, and all the studies, and all scientific papers and such,

we will leave him in Lab for 1 year will he come up with something ?

he needs years of experience and study to be able to lead something big there,

so he wont be able to do it,

does it mean the lab ´works only for the one who was woking in it’, and if ´it works for him’ it does not mean it will ´work for another ´ ?

the lab is subjective, it has nothing to do with working for this man or this other man,

if someone cannot get something out of it then he is just not meeting the requirements,

it is the same for Magic, there are things that need requirements,

if one who never practiced comes and tries, he will fail, it does not mean necessarily, ´it did not work for him’, he just does not meet requirements,

There are cases where a thing just may not work but this probability exist both for a Magic framework or a Science Lab, we can offer a scientists a lab and still he will just be feeding Mice there, there is no guarantee he will come up with invention.

that being said, do not rub Magic of the Subjective reality it has in several ways.


You got bothered by me asking if you feel a chakra, and you want someone who experience a supernatural ability to accept you asking about it?

and you DO make assumptions, you say it does not exist, so what you disliked me doing, you are doing the exact same.

Chakra exists. It is a mental construct, and a useful one for certain applications, certainly carrying a hefty memetic load that usually comes with tradition, but I have other tools.

Thats a checkmate, you participated in miracles ?

A miracle is an extraordinary event that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws and is often attributed to a divine or supernatural power

That's an incredibly pedestrian definition of a miracle.

You spent many replies talking about scientific approaches and how i should not assume something beyond whats scientific exists,

And Now you Say you experienced things that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws ? And that is supernatural?

Obviously. Not all things have established physical theories, and not all things can have for various reasons. Fire and motion, however, very much do. Use that brain for once.

Congratulations, you just made your whole case crumble, so all what you have said about things having to conform to science and such, can be used against you here.

They do conform to science.

you argued against super natural abilities, and you are claiming them now and claiming miracles.

you are saying why those with supernatural abilities do not display them,

you did not display any to us watching,

every single thing you said now is directed at you, otherwise you will not be coherent.

You're incredibly closed-minded, I think. I've never said science is the only mode of knowledge. I've only said that it is, in fact, a working mode of knowledge, and as such doesn't just get to be wrong because you want superpowers really hard like an eight-year-old.

 

[lightning]

What the hell, you're using enter more often than your brain anyway, let's go line by line.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy when there exists a better standard of discerning the truth. In this case you've claimed that experience trumps all other cards, so you don't actually have any line that would poise your experience as of higher quality than any other experience. For my argument to work, you should notice, I really only need one person with experience positively contradicting your own.

No, I don't. Comparing numbers is not statistics, and as I already said it's not even that necessary.

This is opinion not experience.

Oh, you can't even bring yourself to approach what I'm saying with basic honesty. I'm not saying that experience is invalidated by other people not having it. I'm saying that experiences can be positively contradictory, as is the case now. Either the entire set of experiences packed into physics is authentic or your experience of pirokinesis (which, by the way, you don't even really have) is, both can't be true at the same time.

We should assume that he is under delusion. That doesn't necessarily mean insanity, people are wrong about what they see all the time - often on purpose.

It would have to be measured how likely I am to hallucinate and compared against the likeliness of hypotheses allowing for that occurence. I'm very much willing to accept that I hallucinate if it is more likely than I do than not.

In other words I can't be convinced to something that is proven false.

I have not.

That's the main problem here, you're presuming that your thesis is true to form hypotheticals. This whole argument only works if you are already right, making it the useless kind of circular. This line can't be used to discern whether you're right or wrong.

There are like three kinds of things in general, and logic and experience actually lie in different of those categories.

Numbers can't be exponential. Functions can.

Brain maybe not, but logic is. People were wrong because they did not apply logic. It's really that simple. The following statements don't work based on that, so I'm skipping them

It is a tool that measures its own effectiveness. It's not God but you have literally nothing else.

This is exactly what I do. Practicality is not a valid ontological argument.

Everything is real, just some statements are false.

Yeah, but you can essentially do that without breaking laws of physics unlike the stupid fire thing. There's memetics and synchronicity and all kinds of subtle phenomena that can carry such information.

The following section is too tedious to make make sense, probably the same thing again with some worse metaphor.

Chakra exists. It is a mental construct, and a useful one for certain applications, certainly carrying a hefty memetic load that usually comes with tradition, but I have other tools.

That's an incredibly pedestrian definition of a miracle.

Obviously. Not all things have established physical theories, and not all things can have for various reasons. Fire and motion, however, very much do. Use that brain for once.

They do conform to science.

You're incredibly closed-minded, I think. I've never said science is the only mode of knowledge. I've only said that it is, in fact, a working mode of knowledge, and as such doesn't just get to be wrong because you want superpowers really hard like an eight-year-old.

you have made supernatural claims, like commanding spirits, miracles etc..

So whatever standard you use to reject super powers like remote viewing, those same standards (set by you) must also apply to your supernatural claims.

if you debunk your own arguments, they will be debunked also in relation to telekinesis,

if you do not debunk your arguments, your stance will not be coherent,

Do not debate me, debate yourself, you actively argued against supernatural events and then you claimed to have them.

i invite you kindly to solve that.

you want superpowers really hard like an eight-year-old.

Of course !! I do want superpowers!!

 

[Nembra]

you have made supernatural claims, like commanding spirits, miracles etc..

So whatever standard you use to reject super powers like remote viewing, those same standards (set by you) must also apply to your supernatural claims.

Twice I have explicitly said I'm not rejecting remote viewing.

if you debunk your own arguments, they will be debunked also in relation to telekinesis,

Well, obviously no, because some "supernatural powers" are logical and some are not.

You're arabic, aren't you?

 

[lightning]

Well, obviously no, because some "supernatural powers" are logical and some are not.

Then your stance is against specific ´superpowers’ not all of them, thats more logical and more coherent.

I enjoyed having a conversation with you! Some parts were funny!

You're arabic, aren't you?

I am Greek

 

[Nembra]

Then your stance is against specific ´superpowers’ not all of them, thats more logical and more coherent.

It literally was from the very beginning.

 

[lightning]

It literally was from the very beginning.

It was a misunderstanding then, my bad