The Almighty Lucifer

[Aeternus]

In German, it runs to nearly double the number of words as in English. Sonorous, but slightly soporific.

Interesting. Got it noted

 

[Xenophon]

Yeah, but the Celts made more sense in the sephiroth ... Oak, birch, maple, etc.

More sense to whom? Celts or people schooled in the sephiroth? I had an aha! moment years ago reading Edred Thorson/Stephen Flowers' rituals involving the runes. Ten minutes later, I was saying "WAIT A MINUTE---I read this in Crowley months ago, albeith with different names for the deities." Did a little poking around and, yup. Flowers' roots were in Temple of Set. So OF COURSE his take on rune magick "made sense." It was a retread of what I had learnt elsewhere. Sadly, familiarity doth not necessarily breed good sense. Much is lost "in translation." (Hence the wisdom of the Muzzies: there is no translation of the Quran.)

 

[Ancient]

There was a "heresy" in the early Church that taught the Old Testament God was the devil. The Marcionites, I believe were the group. In our times, Nimrod de Rosario revived the notion in his "Elements of Hyperborean Wisdom," "Gnostic Fragments," and "Mystery of Belicena Villca. Likewise, the O9A has writings that suggest Satan is god of this world.

I just this week came across a Nordic/Gnostic cross in Ekortu's book Thursakyngi that matches this pattern. Some fun ideas there. He says the Æsir are equivalent to the Demiurge and the giants' inclination to bring about Ragnarok is nothing more than the "universe" attempting to return to the pure chaos of Ginnungagap by killing the Æsir and destroying their "abhorrent" creation.

Our dear Lucifer plays an integral role on this stage as well. They equate him with Loki, stating that he is a "Black Shot" from the primeval forces of Ginnungagap, an intentional invasion of the Æsir-created cosmos. He plays an active role vs the passive chaotic corruption of eitr - the waters of the wells that seep into the roots of and poison Yggdrasil. This would make him more of a draconian, titanic force than a God (or even god).

 

[Romolo]

Slightly off topic, but in Dutch, we call a match a ”lucifer”. So there you have it, the rebel in physical form, with hairs aflame. By striking a match, you literally become Prometheus for a few seconds, until you can’t hold on anymore and you are forced to let “the candle” take over. (The deeper metaphor lies for grabs for anyone with eyes to see it)

 

[stratamaster78]

Hello everyone! I have a question for you all.

What if Lucifer is God?

Now, I know that I have my own views on what I know Lucifer is. But, I rather hear from you guys and gals.

Let me know what you think?

Not that it matters but my view is that Lucifer is found at Tipareth on the Tree of Life.

He/She is a Solar Entity.

Are Lucifer, Yeheshua, Ra, Helios etc the Same? Maybe

I haven't read everyone else's view yet because this thread blew up and I'm short on time but I can't wait to read this later.

 

[Xenophon]

I just this week came across a Nordic/Gnostic cross in Ekortu's book Thursakyngi that matches this pattern. Some fun ideas there. He says the Æsir are equivalent to the Demiurge and the giants' inclination to bring about Ragnarok is nothing more than the "universe" attempting to return to the pure chaos of Ginnungagap by killing the Æsir and destroying their "abhorrent" creation.

Our dear Lucifer plays an integral role on this stage as well. They equate him with Loki, stating that he is a "Black Shot" from the primeval forces of Ginnungagap, an intentional invasion of the Æsir-created cosmos. He plays an active role vs the passive chaotic corruption of eitr - the waters of the wells that seep into the roots of and poison Yggdrasil. This would make him more of a draconian, titanic force than a God (or even god).

That's certainly one way to view matters. With their notions of Aesir, Vanir, and Jotun, the northern pagans didn't have a nice neat "god" concept. The Jotun were, as you point out, more on the order of "titans," than what generally gets considered gods. Loki, oddly enough, hung out with the Aesir who seemed often charmed by his ways. Personally, I'd just lump all three categories under the rubric "divinities" if the god thing gets in the way.

Somewhat controversially, both Stephen Flowers and David Myatt hint at some deep links between the figures of Wotan and Loki. There are any number of problems with this, though it is in keeping with the tendency of both the Alfather and Fenrir's father to work at cross purposes each with his own self.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2024

Not that it matters but my view is that Lucifer is found at Tipareth on the Tree of Life.

He/She is a Solar Entity.

Are Lucifer, Yeheshua, Ra, Helios etc the Same? Maybe

I haven't read everyone else's view yet because this thread blew up and I'm short on time but I can't wait to read this later.

Could be, but where do you want to go with the notion?

 

[Aeternus]

Not that it matters but my view is that Lucifer is found at Tipareth on the Tree of Life.

He/She is a Solar Entity.

Are Lucifer, Yeheshua, Ra, Helios etc the Same? Maybe

I haven't read everyone else's view yet because this thread blew up and I'm short on time but I can't wait to read this later.

Personally, I think just because the Yeheshua, Ra and Helios present the equivalent of Lucifer as in Sun deities, still, they are not the same.

One is a Demon while others that you mention are Gods, so, they are different in many aspects.

Ra is seen as rulling the Sun (true), but he doesn't necessarily rule over the aspects of Desire like the Demon Lucifer does.

That is my view and, I think the thread popped in an interesting and intellectual direction

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I always thought Lucifuge Rofocale was in Binah, and his twin Lucifer in Chokmah.

 

[stratamaster78]

Personally, I think just because the Yeheshua, Ra and Helios present the equivalent of Lucifer as in Sun deities, still, they are not the same.

One is a Demon while others that you mention are Gods, so, they are different in many aspects.

Ra is seen as rulling the Sun (true), but he doesn't necessarily rule over the aspects of Desire like the Demon Lucifer does.

That is my view and, I think the thread popped in an interesting and intellectual direction

I wouldn’t refer to Lucifer as a demon although the name has been demonized and mixed in with the names Satan and Devil.

In fact many ‘demons’ were originally various Deities from earlier pantheons who’s names were demonized.

Many see Lucifer as being associated with Venus.

That also could be true and as the ‘Light Bringer’
he welcomes Tipareth (Sun) into Netzach (Venus).

I’m only saying my personal intuition is that there is a very Solar/Tipareth like quality to Lucifer.

 

[Aeternus]

I wouldn’t refer to Lucifer as a demon although the name has been demonized and mixed in with the names Satan and Devil.

In fact many ‘demons’ were originally various Deities from earlier pantheons who’s names were demonized.

Many see Lucifer as being associated with Venus.

That also could be true and as the ‘Light Bringer’
he welcomes Tipareth (Sun) into Netzach (Venus).

I’m only saying my personal intuition is that there is a very Solar/Tipareth like quality to Lucifer.

Well, in the old European literature, Lucifer is considered as separate from Satan.

As for the Demons, they, in my opinion can masquerade as some deities.

An excerpt from John Milton's Paradise Lost (trigger warning, graphic elements and descriptions ahead)








Known False Gods
Aamon - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Amun
Adramelech - False sun god
Agares - Demonic idol of the Greek figure Argus
Anamelech - False moon god
Andras - Demonic idol of Celtic goddess Andraste
Astaroth - Demonic idol of Phoenician goddess Astarte
Bael - Demonic idol of several Mesopotamian gods
Bathin - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Nephthys
Beelzebub (Baal Zebul) - False god of Gluttony
Belphegor (Baal-Peor or Chemosh) - False god of Sloth
Berith (Baal Berith) - False god of Covenants
Bifrons - Demonic idol of Roman god Janus
Crocell - Demonic idol of Prussian god Peckols
Dis - Demonic idol of Roman god Dis Pater
Haagenti - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Bastet
Ipos - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Anubis
Kimaris - Demonic idol of the Greek monster Chimera
Mammon - False god of Greed
Merodach - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Marduk
Moloch - False god of the Ammonites
Morax - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Maat
Mulciber - Demonic idol of Roman god Vulcan
Naberius - Demonic idol of the Greek hound Cerberus
Nisroch - Demonic god of the Assyrian
Nybbas - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Nabu
Orias - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Osiris
Paimon - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Isis
Phenex - Demonic idol of the Greek entity Phoenix
Purson - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Horus
Raum - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Khnum
Sabnock - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Sobek
Sitri - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Set
Theutus - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Thoth
Zagan - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Dagan
Zepar - Demonic idol of Greek god Zephyrus


MILTON'S DESCRIPTION
And Devils to adore for Deities:
Then were they known to men by various Names,
And various Idols through the Heathen World.
Say, Muse, thir Names then known, who first, who last,
Rous'd from the slumber, on that fiery Couch,
At thir great Emperors call, as next in worth
Came singly where he stood on the bare strand,
While the promiscuous croud stood yet aloof?
The chief were those who from the Pit of Hell
Roaming to seek thir prey on earth, durst fix
Thir Seats long after next the Seat of God,
Thir Altars by his Altar, Gods ador'd
Among the Nations round, and durst abide
Jehovah thundring out of Sion, thron'd
Between the Cherubim; yea, often plac'd
Within his Sanctuary it self thir Shrines,
Abominations; and with cursed things
His holy Rites, and solemn Feasts profan'd,
And with thir darkness durst affront his light.

First Moloch, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud
Thir childrens cries unheard, that past through fire
To his grim Idol. Him the Ammonite
Worshipt in Rabba and her watry Plain,
In Argob and in Basan, to the stream
Of utmost Arnon. Nor content with such
Audacious neighbourhood, the wisest heart
Of Solomon he led by fraud to build
His Temple right against the Temple of God
On that opprobrious Hill, and made his Grove
The pleasant Vally of Hinnom, Tophet thence
And black Gehenna call'd, the Type of Hell.

Next Chemos, th' obscene dread of Moabs Sons,
From Aroar to Nebo, and the wild
Of Southmost Abarim; in Hesebon
And Horonaim, Seons Realm, beyond
The flowry Dale of Sibma clad with Vines,
And Eleale to th' Asphaltick Pool.
Peor his other Name, when he entic'd
Israel in Sittim on thir march from Nile
To do him wanton rites, which cost them woe.
Yet thence his lustful Orgies he enlarg'd
Even to that Hill of scandal, by the Grove
Of Moloch homicide, lust hard by hate;
Till good Josiah drove them thence to Hell.

With these came they, who from the bordring flood
Of old Euphrates to the Brook that parts
Egypt from Syrian ground, had general Names
Of Baalim and Ashtaroth, those male,
These Feminine. For Spirits when they please
Can either Sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is thir Essence pure,
Not ti'd or manacl'd with joynt or limb,
Nor founded on the brittle strength of bones,
Like cumbrous flesh; but in what shape they choose
Dilated or condens't, bright or obscure,
Can execute thir aerie purposes,
And works of love or enmity fulfill.
For those the Race of Israel oft forsook
Thir living strength, and unfrequented left
His righteous Altar, bowing lowly down
To bestial Gods; for which thir heads as low
Bow'd down in Battel, sunk before the Spear
Of despicable foes. With these in troop
Came Astoreth, whom the Phoenicians call'd
Astarte, Queen of Heav'n, with crescent Horns;
To whose bright Image nightly by the Moon
Sidonian Virgins paid thir Vows and Songs,
In Sion also not unsung, where stood
Her Temple on th' offensive Mountain, built
By that uxorious King, whose heart though large,
Beguil'd by fair Idolatresses, fell, To Idols foul.

Thammuz came next behind,
Whose annual wound in Lebanon allur'd
The Syrian Damsels to lament his fate
In amorous dittyes all a Summers day,
While smooth Adonis from his native Rock
Ran purple to the Sea, suppos'd with blood
Of Thammuz yearly wounded: the Love-tale
Infected Sions daughters with like heat,
Whose wanton passions in the sacred Porch
Ezekiel saw, when by the Vision led
His eye survay'd the dark Idolatries
Of alienated Judah.

Next came one
Who mourn'd in earnest, when the Captive Ark
Maim'd his brute Image, head and hands lopt off
In his own Temple, on the grunsel edge,
Where he fell flat, and sham'd his Worshipers:
Dagon his Name, Sea Monster, upward Man
And downward Fish: yet had his Temple high
Rear'd in Azotus, dreaded through the Coast
Of Palestine, in Gath and Ascalon
And Accaron and Gaza's frontier bounds.

Him follow'd Rimmon, whose delightful Seat
Was fair Damascus, on the fertil Banks
Of Abbana and Pharphar, lucid streams.
He also against the house of God was bold:
A Leper once he lost and gain'd a King,
Ahaz his sottish Conquerour, whom he drew
Gods Altar to disparage and displace
For one of Syrian mode, whereon to burn
His odious off'rings, and adore the Gods
Whom he had vanquisht.

After these appear'd
A crew who under Names of old Renown,
Osiris, Isis, Orus and their Train
With monstrous shapes and sorceries abus'd
Fanatic Egypt and her Priests, to seek
Thir wandring Gods disguis'd in brutish forms
Rather then human. Nor did Israel scape
Th' infection when thir borrow'd Gold compos'd
The Calf in Oreb: and the Rebel King
Doubl'd that sin in Bethel and in Dan,
Lik'ning his Maker to the Grazed Ox,
Jehovah, who in one Night when he pass'd
From Egypt marching, equal'd with one stroke
Both her first born and all her bleating Gods

So, if you read carefully, albeit the old English, you can easily identify how many of the Gods have Demons as their enemies because the Demons tend to masquerade as Gods.

Frankly, due to Lucifer's cunning nature, he can also pretend to be the Roman God with the same name.

Chemos is Moloch who is still worshipped by the Bohemian club these days in form of an owl.

Personally I think that the dark owl of the Bohemian Grove is also associated with Lilith, but that is another theme of discussion and I don't want to step outside the topic

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2024

Additionally, notice how Paimon, for example, is masquerading as ISIS. And, connecting the dots you can really see why the terrorist organization has the name of ISIS. It's not the Godess who rules them, despite some thinking, it is Paimon who is the Demon of Chaos and Punishment in Hell.

 

[stratamaster78]

Well, in the old European literature, Lucifer is considered as separate from Satan.

As for the Demons, they, in my opinion can masquerade as some deities.

An excerpt from John Milton's Paradise Lost (trigger warning, graphic elements and descriptions ahead)








Known False Gods
Aamon - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Amun
Adramelech - False sun god
Agares - Demonic idol of the Greek figure Argus
Anamelech - False moon god
Andras - Demonic idol of Celtic goddess Andraste
Astaroth - Demonic idol of Phoenician goddess Astarte
Bael - Demonic idol of several Mesopotamian gods
Bathin - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Nephthys
Beelzebub (Baal Zebul) - False god of Gluttony
Belphegor (Baal-Peor or Chemosh) - False god of Sloth
Berith (Baal Berith) - False god of Covenants
Bifrons - Demonic idol of Roman god Janus
Crocell - Demonic idol of Prussian god Peckols
Dis - Demonic idol of Roman god Dis Pater
Haagenti - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Bastet
Ipos - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Anubis
Kimaris - Demonic idol of the Greek monster Chimera
Mammon - False god of Greed
Merodach - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Marduk
Moloch - False god of the Ammonites
Morax - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Maat
Mulciber - Demonic idol of Roman god Vulcan
Naberius - Demonic idol of the Greek hound Cerberus
Nisroch - Demonic god of the Assyrian
Nybbas - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Nabu
Orias - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Osiris
Paimon - Demonic idol of Egyptian goddess Isis
Phenex - Demonic idol of the Greek entity Phoenix
Purson - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Horus
Raum - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Khnum
Sabnock - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Sobek
Sitri - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Set
Theutus - Demonic idol of Egyptian god Thoth
Zagan - Demonic idol of Mesopotamian god Dagan
Zepar - Demonic idol of Greek god Zephyrus


MILTON'S DESCRIPTION
And Devils to adore for Deities:
Then were they known to men by various Names,
And various Idols through the Heathen World.
Say, Muse, thir Names then known, who first, who last,
Rous'd from the slumber, on that fiery Couch,
At thir great Emperors call, as next in worth
Came singly where he stood on the bare strand,
While the promiscuous croud stood yet aloof?
The chief were those who from the Pit of Hell
Roaming to seek thir prey on earth, durst fix
Thir Seats long after next the Seat of God,
Thir Altars by his Altar, Gods ador'd
Among the Nations round, and durst abide
Jehovah thundring out of Sion, thron'd
Between the Cherubim; yea, often plac'd
Within his Sanctuary it self thir Shrines,
Abominations; and with cursed things
His holy Rites, and solemn Feasts profan'd,
And with thir darkness durst affront his light.

First Moloch, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud
Thir childrens cries unheard, that past through fire
To his grim Idol. Him the Ammonite
Worshipt in Rabba and her watry Plain,
In Argob and in Basan, to the stream
Of utmost Arnon. Nor content with such
Audacious neighbourhood, the wisest heart
Of Solomon he led by fraud to build
His Temple right against the Temple of God
On that opprobrious Hill, and made his Grove
The pleasant Vally of Hinnom, Tophet thence
And black Gehenna call'd, the Type of Hell.

Next Chemos, th' obscene dread of Moabs Sons,
From Aroar to Nebo, and the wild
Of Southmost Abarim; in Hesebon
And Horonaim, Seons Realm, beyond
The flowry Dale of Sibma clad with Vines,
And Eleale to th' Asphaltick Pool.
Peor his other Name, when he entic'd
Israel in Sittim on thir march from Nile
To do him wanton rites, which cost them woe.
Yet thence his lustful Orgies he enlarg'd
Even to that Hill of scandal, by the Grove
Of Moloch homicide, lust hard by hate;
Till good Josiah drove them thence to Hell.

With these came they, who from the bordring flood
Of old Euphrates to the Brook that parts
Egypt from Syrian ground, had general Names
Of Baalim and Ashtaroth, those male,
These Feminine. For Spirits when they please
Can either Sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is thir Essence pure,
Not ti'd or manacl'd with joynt or limb,
Nor founded on the brittle strength of bones,
Like cumbrous flesh; but in what shape they choose
Dilated or condens't, bright or obscure,
Can execute thir aerie purposes,
And works of love or enmity fulfill.
For those the Race of Israel oft forsook
Thir living strength, and unfrequented left
His righteous Altar, bowing lowly down
To bestial Gods; for which thir heads as low
Bow'd down in Battel, sunk before the Spear
Of despicable foes. With these in troop
Came Astoreth, whom the Phoenicians call'd
Astarte, Queen of Heav'n, with crescent Horns;
To whose bright Image nightly by the Moon
Sidonian Virgins paid thir Vows and Songs,
In Sion also not unsung, where stood
Her Temple on th' offensive Mountain, built
By that uxorious King, whose heart though large,
Beguil'd by fair Idolatresses, fell, To Idols foul.

Thammuz came next behind,
Whose annual wound in Lebanon allur'd
The Syrian Damsels to lament his fate
In amorous dittyes all a Summers day,
While smooth Adonis from his native Rock
Ran purple to the Sea, suppos'd with blood
Of Thammuz yearly wounded: the Love-tale
Infected Sions daughters with like heat,
Whose wanton passions in the sacred Porch
Ezekiel saw, when by the Vision led
His eye survay'd the dark Idolatries
Of alienated Judah.

Next came one
Who mourn'd in earnest, when the Captive Ark
Maim'd his brute Image, head and hands lopt off
In his own Temple, on the grunsel edge,
Where he fell flat, and sham'd his Worshipers:
Dagon his Name, Sea Monster, upward Man
And downward Fish: yet had his Temple high
Rear'd in Azotus, dreaded through the Coast
Of Palestine, in Gath and Ascalon
And Accaron and Gaza's frontier bounds.

Him follow'd Rimmon, whose delightful Seat
Was fair Damascus, on the fertil Banks
Of Abbana and Pharphar, lucid streams.
He also against the house of God was bold:
A Leper once he lost and gain'd a King,
Ahaz his sottish Conquerour, whom he drew
Gods Altar to disparage and displace
For one of Syrian mode, whereon to burn
His odious off'rings, and adore the Gods
Whom he had vanquisht.

After these appear'd
A crew who under Names of old Renown,
Osiris, Isis, Orus and their Train
With monstrous shapes and sorceries abus'd
Fanatic Egypt and her Priests, to seek
Thir wandring Gods disguis'd in brutish forms
Rather then human. Nor did Israel scape
Th' infection when thir borrow'd Gold compos'd
The Calf in Oreb: and the Rebel King
Doubl'd that sin in Bethel and in Dan,
Lik'ning his Maker to the Grazed Ox,
Jehovah, who in one Night when he pass'd
From Egypt marching, equal'd with one stroke
Both her first born and all her bleating Gods

So, if you read carefully, albeit the old English, you can easily identify how many of the Gods have Demons as their enemies because the Demons tend to masquerade as Gods.

Frankly, due to Lucifer's cunning nature, he can also pretend to be the Roman God with the same name.

Chemos is Moloch who is still worshipped by the Bohemian club these days in form of an owl.

Personally I think that the dark owl of the Bohemian Grove is also associated with Lilith, but that is another theme of discussion and I don't want to step outside the topic

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2024

Additionally, notice how Paimon, for example, is masquerading as ISIS. And, connecting the dots you can really see why the terrorist organization has the name of ISIS. It's not the Godess who rules them, despite some thinking, it is Paimon who is the Demon of Chaos and Punishment in Hell.

I do find all of those associations interesting but I should probably clarify that I lean more towards a psychological model wrt to Magick and the Occult in general more than a literal spirit model.

I don’t really view Gods and Angels etc as literal ‘Good’ Entities or Demons as ‘Evil’ Entities or that they externally exist on their own pulling strings to trick and manipulate.

I see all of them as Aspects of our own Higher Consciousness or Lower Subconscious.

Some of them are like opposite ends of a polarity of energetic qualities.

Like a paired Shem Angel w/ a Goetic Demon is for me not really Good here and Evil there. They both have Benefic and Malefic qualities but are also like 2 sides of a coin or again exist in energetic equilibrium with one balancing the other on their energetic spectrum

Sometimes a certain Named thing can exist within us as an aspect of us but it can also exist as an external Entity because a large enough amount of us have created it from our collective unconscious in the form of an Egregore that is the personification of what has been attributed to it… if that makes sense.

I don’t really think any one entity is masquerading as another.

It’s just that as time moves on civilizations pantheons evolve and some names change and some stay similar to previous ones so it could appear as a false idol I suppose but it’s really just a large group of people giving a personification to a particular quality.

I’m not sure if I’m explaining this very well and this could just be all over the place.

I should probably loop this back to the main topic and just say that no I do not think Lucifer is God in what is normally accepted to be God the ‘Creator’.

But my view is that God has manifested him/herself in the physical realm as every single living thing that exists and has consciousness.

And as I see Lucifer as an aspect of our Consciousness whether that’s Higher or Lower then yes I suppose in some way Lucifer is an Aspect of God.

Now there I go really being Blasphemous!!! Lol

 

[Aeternus]

I do find all of those associations interesting but I should probably clarify that I lean more towards a psychological model wrt to Magick and the Occult in general more than a literal spirit model.

I don’t really view Gods and Angels etc as literal ‘Good’ Entities or Demons as ‘Evil’ Entities or that they externally exist on their own pulling strings to trick and manipulate.

I see all of them as Aspects of our own Higher Consciousness or Lower Subconscious.

Some of them are like opposite ends of a polarity of energetic qualities.

Like a paired Shem Angel w/ a Goetic Demon is for me not really Good here and Evil there. They both have Benefic and Malefic qualities but are also like 2 sides of a coin or again exist in energetic equilibrium with one balancing the other on their energetic spectrum

Sometimes a certain Named thing can exist within us as an aspect of us but it can also exist as an external Entity because a large enough amount of us have created it from our collective unconscious in the form of an Egregore that is the personification of what has been attributed to it… if that makes sense.

I don’t really think any one entity is masquerading as another.

It’s just that as time moves on civilizations pantheons evolve and some names change and some stay similar to previous ones so it could appear as a false idol I suppose but it’s really just a large group of people giving a personification to a particular quality.

I’m not sure if I’m explaining this very well and this could just be all over the place.

I should probably loop this back to the main topic and just say that no I do not think Lucifer is God in what is normally accepted to be God the ‘Creator’.

But my view is that God has manifested him/herself in the physical realm as every single living thing that exists and has consciousness.

And as I see Lucifer as an aspect of our Consciousness whether that’s Higher or Lower then yes I suppose in some way Lucifer is an Aspect of God.

Now there I go really being Blasphemous!!! Lol

That's an interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing it.

I am glad that those few replies between us resulted in exactly what I appreciate, an intellectual debate.

Some entities can of course represent the aspect of the Higher or the Lower consciousness. Some of them really do that in some cases.

As for egregores, people sometimes conjure Ctulhu like of Tulpas (Egregores) so, in some cases it makes sense.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2024

For example, according to what I have researched, archangel Uriel and the Ophanim order of Angels represent the higher state of knowledge the human mind can obtain from the said Archangels

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

Well, in the old European literature, Lucifer is considered as separate from Satan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I tried to research this topic some time ago all I found was that Lucifer was an euphemism and it was widely discussed who it referred to and eventually it became a synonym to Satan in late medieval, novadays becoming a "real name" of Satan. But it still wasn't exactly a name for separate being.

 

[Xenophon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I tried to research this topic some time ago all I found was that Lucifer was an euphemism and it was widely discussed who it referred to and eventually it became a synonym to Satan in late medieval, novadays becoming a "real name" of Satan. But it still wasn't exactly a name for separate being.

Some present day Satanists try to drive a wedge between the two. But, yeah, I can't recall any very pronounced early Christian teaching that the two were different. If someone taught that, the opinion never became fully mainstreamed.

 

[theil]

Hello everyone! I have a question for you all.

What if Lucifer is God?

Now, I know that I have my own views on what I know Lucifer is. But, I rather hear from you guys and gals.

Let me know what you think?

Not sure God is God.

From personal subjective experience the presence I've been aware of is both remote and personal, but unknowing, outside of my understanding.

When i try to apply a name, a tag to it, my mind rejects my limited conceptualization of God.
Perhaps the all father/mother comes closest.

If i hold the idea of God/Lucifer against the luminance of this being in my mind both are blessed equally.

 

[Aeternus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I tried to research this topic some time ago all I found was that Lucifer was an euphemism and it was widely discussed who it referred to and eventually it became a synonym to Satan in late medieval, novadays becoming a "real name" of Satan. But it still wasn't exactly a name for separate being.

Well, the protestant theologian John Calvin rejected classifying Lucifer as Satan.

Citing him: Protestant theologian John Calvin rejected the identification of Lucifer with Satan or the devil. He said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."

Martin Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.

Various medieval Christian writings made a significant distinction between the two.

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

He said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."

Yep, I've read that. In that context there's no point in using "name" of Lucifer at all, because it's not an unhuman being, it's a human king and it wasn't his name
Yet it was centuries since people started to apply this euphemism to Satan and I don't think there is much point in separating them now.

 

[HoldAll]

I think the real clue is to be found in the headline of this thread: "The Almighty Lucifer". Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Satan nor Lucifer are traditionally accorded the epithet 'Almighty' - only God is seen as omnipotent, any other metaphysical being was deemed inferior, and by definition there can be only one Almighty in monotheism; here, the supreme being is called 'God' without any room for another entity taking up the same posititon with equal omnipotence. Which is why @Konsciencia asked in the original post: "What if Lucifer is God?" without actually asking the question what Lucifer represented within the Christian paradigm or according to apocryphal lore.

If Lucifer is king, then the old Abrahamic god is retired, vanishes or is assigned an inferior role, for example that of a demiurge. And as @Konsciencia has definite views on what Lucifer is, what we should really be talking about is a God with different qualities than those traditionally ascribed to Him in Christianity, not a remote ineffable being that, according to the Old Testament, lost his shit in the Garden Eden when the two humans created by Him suddenly started to act independently, killed off almost every creature in the Flood and then committed a series of atrocities with sadistic gusto before kind of settling down in the New Testament (and was not heard from ever since).

So what @Konsciencia basically proposes is to elevate Lucifer to the supreme position and take the place of God, all in the hope that Lucifer will be a different supreme divine ruler, presumably a much better one. So what would be a new monotheistic belief system with Lucifer on top be like, reigning supreme instead of being the eternal underdog and Promethean rebel? I think that was @Konsciencia's real question here.