The Consuming Hunger Of Gods

[Mider2009]

I remember I returned once in a cold sweat....I heard something in the back og my mind, it may have been laughing.

 

[SkullTraill]

I can't help but feel that this is some sort of larping circlejerk?

Like, almost sounds lovecraftian, like you tried to invoke Cthulu or some shit.

I don't buy this stuff, but of course, feel free to continue.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

I have tried tapping into the source and felt nothing...cold hate, rage, they feed on us, they enslave us when we die.

I'm not sure to what you're referring, but the Source in a vital essence sense of the word refers to the aggregate of all living beings. It is inherently confused, as it believes it is not a singular entity, but plural. That is why we think of ourselves as individuals. Unless you are simply mistaken, it is most likely that you picked up on the animosity and hatred felt by many life forms. The source is no more capable of hating individuals than you are of hating yourself.

To look at that another way, humans feel hate toward each other because they feel like other people are something foreign and antagonistic. But the only form of 'hate' you feel for yourself is introspective self loathing. You feel guilty, regret, or shame for your attributes or actions, and that manifests like the hate a person feels toward an "Other."

In a sense, a scale model of how the Source is confused about itself.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

I can't help but feel that this is some sort of larping circlejerk?

Like, almost sounds lovecraftian, like you tried to invoke Cthulu or some shit.

I don't buy this stuff, but of course, feel free to continue.

I assure you I am being genuine. I made no attempt to invoke something so empty and craving of life. I was hoping to meet a vital, powerful being from long ago. One that could hopefully explain some things. Instead, I received continued confirmation that some spirits of reach exceeding their sustenance have an expiration date.

 

[Mider2009]

I assure you I am being genuine. I made no attempt to invoke something so empty and craving of life. I was hoping to meet a vital, powerful being from long ago. One that could hopefully explain some things. Instead, I received continued confirmation that some spirits of reach exceeding their sustenance have an expiration date.

Stop now....I still have scars

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

Stop now....I still have scars

For clarity, are you telling me to stop talking about the subject, or to stop trying these points of contact?

Because to the former, I can try to be a little more delicate with phrasing, but I fully intend to explore what avenues of knowledge the people of this forum have to offer.

And to the latter, no. With respect to whatever you contacted, I cannot speak to your experience without more data, but the Source is us. All of us. Humans, animals, plants, bacteria. It is confused, maybe a bit sad, but it is no enemy to dread. More to the point, the purpose and result of the meeting had little to do with my attunement to all other life. That was merely part of the method. The being I contacted was most certainly not the Source of all life. Not even slightly.

 

[SkullTraill]

I assure you I am being genuine. I made no attempt to invoke something so empty and craving of life. I was hoping to meet a vital, powerful being from long ago. One that could hopefully explain some things. Instead, I received continued confirmation that some spirits of reach exceeding their sustenance have an expiration date.

I accept your explanation, but I'm still confused by the whole "old ancient being beyond comprehension" narrative (which is why I called it lovecraftian). What was your goal, and what was your method? Without being abstract and impressionistic, what did you see/feel and what makes you think it was something occult and not just, for example, a day dream or something?

 

[Roma]

In my view behind all Existence is Beingness. Beingness sometimes desires experience and thereby (re)manifests a set of universes. The universes are ensouled by great Logoi. To the intelligences manifested in any universe, their Logos appears as The Source of All.

This frame of reference can be tested by some humanoids:

Put your attention to the Sphere of Existence. Locate the nearest Universal Logos. Note how much of the Sphere is occupied by that Logos.

Now put your attention to the Sphere of Beingness. Where does that Universal Logos fit in the Sphere of Beingness?

 

[SkullTraill]

In my view behind all Existence is Beingness. Beingness sometimes desires experience and thereby (re)manifests a set of universes. The universes are ensouled by great Logoi. To the intelligences manifested in any universe, their Logos appears as The Source of All.

This frame of reference can be tested by some humanoids:

Put your attention to the Sphere of Existence. Locate the nearest Universal Logos. Note how much of the Sphere is occupied by that Logos.

Now put your attention to the Sphere of Beingness. Where does that Universal Logos fit in the Sphere of Beingness?

This is exactly what I was not asking for. It's abstract, impressionistic and has nearly no meaning to anyone except you.

What is:

• a Universal Logos
• Sphere of Existence
• Source of All
• Great Logoi
• Sphere of Beingness

I mean come on. It's cool if you like to use those words within your own mental landscape, but they mean nothing to anyone except you unless their are explicitly defined.

The more time I spend listening or reading you, the more embroiled you seem in fantasy, larping and delusional grandeur.

The post that I just quoted in this reply, is all form and no substance. Beautiful words and no meaning.

 

[Benjamin]

In my view behind all Existence is Beingness. Beingness sometimes desires experience and thereby (re)manifests a set of universes. The universes are ensouled by great Logoi. To the intelligences manifested in any universe, their Logos appears as The Source of All.

This frame of reference can be tested by some humanoids:

Put your attention to the Sphere of Existence. Locate the nearest Universal Logos. Note how much of the Sphere is occupied by that Logos.

Now put your attention to the Sphere of Beingness. Where does that Universal Logos fit in the Sphere of Beingness?

Wtf are you on aboot.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

I accept your explanation, but I'm still confused by the whole "old ancient being beyond comprehension" narrative (which is why I called it lovecraftian). What was your goal, and what was your method? Without being abstract and impressionistic, what did you see/feel and what makes you think it was something occult and not just, for example, a day dream or something?

Respectfully, the "beyond comprehension" part is entirely you reading that into it. I never used any such phrasing, and never intended to make any suggestion this being IS beyond comprehension. Here's the descriptors I used:

"recipient of worship, what some would call gods" - Not all spirits are worshipped, or even respected. However, I am perfectly aware that some people give a lot of devotion to certain concepts or spiritual beings. I have made several attempts to try to get in contact with spirits that are the ones some people worship. I am areligious (I do not worship any gods) so I felt the need to make that distinction. That I am not "praying" to them or offering them things in worship, but simply trying to find a spiritual peer and talk. Like people.

"apoplectic husk" - I am using the definition of apoplexy in the sense of "rupture (as of an organ)" or more colloquially that this being is suffering self-oriented or internal damage. Clumsy phrasing, I guess, but the meaning is there. As for "husk," pretty much what it sounds like. This being I encountered wasn't a vivid, hale creature; it was leftovers, a spent shell of what once was.

"dark, consuming presence" - I have explained this concept in detail in my "My Forte" thread, under the term Accuser.

None of that is beyond comprehension, nor would I want it described that way. I just figured someone might have more experience with these than me, or at least a similar level of experience, so I created this thread to ask. Per my goals and methods, I can tell you in PM, but I'm concealing some things public-wise until I've done more research.

 

[SkullTraill]

Respectfully, the "beyond comprehension" part is entirely you reading that into it. I never used any such phrasing, and never intended to make any suggestion this being IS beyond comprehension. Here's the descriptors I used:

"recipient of worship, what some would call gods" - Not all spirits are worshipped, or even respected. However, I am perfectly aware that some people give a lot of devotion to certain concepts or spiritual beings. I have made several attempts to try to get in contact with spirits that are the ones some people worship. I am areligious (I do not worship any gods) so I felt the need to make that distinction. That I am not "praying" to them or offering them things in worship, but simply trying to find a spiritual peer and talk. Like people.

"apoplectic husk" - I am using the definition of apoplexy in the sense of "rupture (as of an organ)" or more colloquially that this being is suffering self-oriented or internal damage. Clumsy phrasing, I guess, but the meaning is there. As for "husk," pretty much what it sounds like. This being I encountered wasn't a vivid, hale creature; it was leftovers, a spent shell of what once was.

"dark, consuming presence" - I have explained this concept in detail in my "My Forte" thread, under the term Accuser.

None of that is beyond comprehension, nor would I want it described that way. I just figured someone might have more experience with these than me, or at least a similar level of experience, so I created this thread to ask. Per my goals and methods, I can tell you in PM, but I'm concealing some things public-wise until I've done more research.

My bad, I didn't mean to say that it was beyond your comprehension, I meant beyond mine (or other readers').

I think I might PM you regarding the goals or something because even after your explanations of some of your terminology, it just feels like a literary work, or "world building" (if you get what I mean)... sounds like imagination more than something experienced/based in reality.

Of course, that really is at this point just my subjective opinion, and I want to say it's not a knock against you, nor an accusation, nor a warning of any kind. More just my observation of what I'm understanding.

Admittedly, I haven't read the "My Forte" thread, so maybe you've built up some lore there that I'm unaware of, but again then that gets to the point where it sounds like lore. Often, when people are describing something based in reality... something experienced... something that happened... they have no need to reference some idea that was built up/explored somewhere else. People don't need to struggle with personal definitions and overly complicated, poetic abstractions.

The way you ask if any of us have "run into" this situation before without being objective and precise about what actual reality you suspect we have encountered is the issue I'm having.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

My bad, I didn't mean to say that it was beyond your comprehension, I meant beyond mine (or other readers').

I think I might PM you regarding the goals or something because even after your explanations of some of your terminology, it just feels like a literary work, or "world building" (if you get what I mean)... sounds like imagination more than something experienced/based in reality.

Of course, that really is at this point just my subjective opinion, and I want to say it's not a knock against you, nor an accusation, nor a warning of any kind. More just my observation of what I'm understanding.

Admittedly, I haven't read the "My Forte" thread, so maybe you've built up some lore there that I'm unaware of, but again then that gets to the point where it sounds like lore. Often, when people are describing something based in reality... something experienced... something that happened... they have no need to reference some idea that was built up/explored somewhere else. People don't need to struggle with personal definitions and overly complicated, poetic abstractions.

The way you ask if any of us have "run into" this situation before without being objective and precise about what actual reality you suspect we have encountered is the issue I'm having.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I am a writer who prefers the fantasy genre, so I absolutely understand where my style of describing things starts to feel like fiction. I have a clear divide in my head between what's real and what isn't, but when dealing with other people and trying to avoid specific buzzwords, I tend to use more abstract language. Also, I'm sensitive to there being people on any forum that might mirror me/come up with responses based on the content of my post, so I don't want to plant a bunch of (at the moment) unnecessary info.

I realize it's not intended as a warning, but I take notice when the admin of an occult forum says "It sounds like you're writing fluff for D&D" or something of the equivalent.

Your paragraph about building up lore is entirely inaccurate to my life experience, but that's an understandable difference in perspective. I have talked a lot about things in that thread that I don't want to have to repeat ad nauseum, so it's helpful for me to suggest that people refer to it. TGK felt like it would be good material for a book as well, perhaps not in the same way you're meaning. What I take from this is that I talk a lot, but I knew that. I have repeatedly invited discussion on several topics, and have not gotten a lot, so I just continue making information about my practice available to this limited audience that I feel may appreciate it.

What I encountered is not a member of the Animal kingdom with a recognized genus and species. It does not have a measured habitat on record. It does not have a gestational period nor an age of maturity. I cannot tell you what its cells are composed of, nor can I provide a scientific illustration. You cannot smoke it in a lab, you cannot subject it to genetic testing. I know all of this because things encountered in this manner, they aren't regarded well by the greater scientific community. Talking about the things we do, it makes scientists laugh. Or yawn and look the other way. All but the good ones, at least.

I am aware there is a logical faction of the Occult community (so named because these things are usually hidden), that think none of us should be talking about this on a public, online forum. I choose to disregard that because I don't do solipsism. I don't just want to sit in a closed room, interact with no humans, and keep all this to myself. But you questioning why I'd ask "has anyone experienced this" when I don't have all the information, is inherently unscientific and I will hear no counsel otherwise. Science requires peer review. Science requires study and survey. While I cannot attest to the "credentials" of anyone here, but I extend everyone some grace until I see reason to directly question someone's thinking. It's called good faith.

 

[Mider2009]

It’s not that...it’s just that we as humans have existed for thousands of years

youd think we’d have read about this from someone else, you say the gods are formless husks, I know of people who say they aren’t.

there was some writings I think about when Christianity started taking over Rome, when they went to inquire the oracles of Delphi, the oracles said something like the old gods were now being replaced...which is true, yet even today I know those who worship Odin, Zeus, etc.

also we don’t know if gods NEED us...I don’t anyway, do they feed off our energy? Sure but I don’t think they care if we stop worshipping them, they’re on a different plane of existence.

im also not saying this didn’t happen.

just my opinion

 

[Roma]

What is:

• a Universal Logos
• Sphere of Existence
• Source of All
• Great Logoi
• Sphere of Beingness

I mean come on. It's cool if you like to use those words within your own mental landscape, but they mean nothing to anyone except you unless their are explicitly defined.

The concept of Logos is quite common both in religious and esoteric contexts. See for example the Alice Bailey writings below.

I used Existence and Beingness as English equivalents of Hindu and Tibetan concepts. Consider that the pralaya occurs between the several manifestations of a single universe.

The "Source of All" is used to avoid the religious connotations of god.

Here are some references to Logoi:

"1. The First Cosmic Logos, impersonal and unmanifested, the precursor of the Manifested.
2. The Second Cosmic Logos, Spirit-Matter, Life, the Spirit of the Universe.
3. The Third Cosmic Logos, Cosmic Ideation, the Universal World-Soul.
From these basic creative principles, in successive gradations there issue in ordered sequence the numberless Universes comprising countless Manifesting Stars and Solar Systems.
Each Solar System is the manifestation of the energy and life of a great Cosmic Existence, Whom we call, for lack of a better term, a Solar Logos.
This Solar Logos incarnates, or comes into manifestation, through the medium of a solar system. This solar system is the body, or form, of this cosmic Life, and is itself triple. " A Treatise on Cosmic Fire - page 10

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I appreciate that conceptual mapping of the unmanifest requires some starting point

 

[SkullTraill]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I am a writer who prefers the fantasy genre, so I absolutely understand where my style of describing things starts to feel like fiction. I have a clear divide in my head between what's real and what isn't, but when dealing with other people and trying to avoid specific buzzwords, I tend to use more abstract language. Also, I'm sensitive to there being people on any forum that might mirror me/come up with responses based on the content of my post, so I don't want to plant a bunch of (at the moment) unnecessary info.

I see...

I realize it's not intended as a warning, but I take notice when the admin of an occult forum says "It sounds like you're writing fluff for D&D" or something of the equivalent.

haha I'm really not some "big guy" occultist. I'm not known, prominent or respected for my opinions/knowledge of the occult/magic. I said "It sounds like you're writing fluff for D&D" not as an insult but literally because it did sound that way to me and I was trying to understand, just like any other member would. The way WF has always worked is this: there are no thought leaders. There is no one here who gets to tell anyone else how to think or how to write (aside from obvious rule breaking). Beyond that, there is no one who "knows more" than anyone else, and we are all free to share and question as peers.

I don't want anyone to think that just because I'm the admin here that I am the most senior occultist here (that couldn't be further from the truth) or that my opinion on occult/magical matters is somehow superior to anyone elses, or that just because I have doubts about someones authenticity that everyone else should as well. I'm just a member here, and WF is still quite small, so don't worry.

Your paragraph about building up lore is entirely inaccurate to my life experience, but that's an understandable difference in perspective. I have talked a lot about things in that thread that I don't want to have to repeat ad nauseum, so it's helpful for me to suggest that people refer to it. TGK felt like it would be good material for a book as well, perhaps not in the same way you're meaning. What I take from this is that I talk a lot, but I knew that. I have repeatedly invited discussion on several topics, and have not gotten a lot, so I just continue making information about my practice available to this limited audience that I feel may appreciate it.

Feel free to elaborate why it is inaccurate to your life experience. It's not really "ad nauseum" though is it. This is a forum, it used to be a very large forum, and it's not possible to expect those who are discussing a topic in X thread be intimately familiar with you/your history/something you said in Y thread.

It's completely fine to talk a lot, and I really do encourage it. Don't think that my questions here, or my doubts about any particular thing you say are a reason for you to stop sharing. I am just one person. I'm not "special". You can keep posting despite me not agreeing with you as long as you are following the rules.

What I encountered is not a member of the Animal kingdom with a recognized genus and species. It does not have a measured habitat on record. It does not have a gestational period nor an age of maturity. I cannot tell you what its cells are composed of, nor can I provide a scientific illustration. You cannot smoke it in a lab, you cannot subject it to genetic testing. I know all of this because things encountered in this manner, they aren't regarded well by the greater scientific community. Talking about the things we do, it makes scientists laugh. Or yawn and look the other way. All but the good ones, at least.

I know it's none of that... I don't expect it to be scientific... but like @Mider2009 said above, surely you are not the first occultist to ever encounter this phenomenon. Surely you can explain it in terms of already established/understood occult terminology, practice, knowledge. Surely this isn't something entirely novel that you discovered and are enlightening us about? Because that's what this thread has sounded like.

With respect, it's sounded like either a larping fantasy/finctional story OR it's sounded like you've encountered some entirely novel phenomena extra to the current general occult understanding/knowledge/consensus. Which is possible, but unlikely.

If it's neither of those, then there surely must be a more objective, concise way to explain what you experienced in terms of the general modern understanding of magick/the occult.

I am aware there is a logical faction of the Occult community (so named because these things are usually hidden), that think none of us should be talking about this on a public, online forum. I choose to disregard that because I don't do solipsism. I don't just want to sit in a closed room, interact with no humans, and keep all this to myself. But you questioning why I'd ask "has anyone experienced this" when I don't have all the information, is inherently unscientific and I will hear no counsel otherwise. Science requires peer review. Science requires study and survey. While I cannot attest to the "credentials" of anyone here, but I extend everyone some grace until I see reason to directly question someone's thinking. It's called good faith.

"Science" also requires accurate, concise descriptions.
"Science" also requires reproducible, testable experiments.

I don't see you describing how anyone else is to try and achieve what you purport to achieve? I'm not one to often conflate science and the occult, but I do agree in the scienficic process and it is your lack thereof which I am calling to question here.

Instead of clearly defining the steps one has to take to try and achieve the same result that you were asking for, and instead of objectively defining what is to be seen/noticed, you figuratively, vaguely, poetically describe something that no one except you would really be able to fully grasp and you ask if anyone's experienced that? I should think not. There's nothing remotely scienfic about this thread... that's the problem.

To be clear:
I am not questioning why you'd ask "has anyone experienced this". I am questioning how you'd expect anyone who reads this thread and the vague, fantastical, almost-poetic "scientific" (they're not) descriptions of the phenomena and be able to with any truth or accuracy tell you that they have experienced the same?

As an aside:

I am aware there is a logical faction of the Occult community (so named because these things are usually hidden), that think none of us should be talking about this on a public, online forum.

I really couldn't care less. This vision of this forum is the antithesis of that ideology.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

It’s not that...it’s just that we as humans have existed for thousands of years

youd think we’d have read about this from someone else, you say the gods are formless husks, I know of people who say they aren’t.

there was some writings I think about when Christianity started taking over Rome, when they went to inquire the oracles of Delphi, the oracles said something like the old gods were now being replaced...which is true, yet even today I know those who worship Odin, Zeus, etc.

also we don’t know if gods NEED us...I don’t anyway, do they feed off our energy? Sure but I don’t think they care if we stop worshipping them, they’re on a different plane of existence.

im also not saying this didn’t happen.

just my opinion

I can't attest to what any of these other people in history have said or thought, but their not bringing it up has a number of possible and likely explanations, aside from just "no one has heard of/thought of it." As for people who say they aren't, there are millions of people, perhaps billions, who are Christians that believe other "false gods" existed in some demonic form. Many of them who I have spoken to believe that, if those gods still exist, they are little more than what I've described. Not that I'm getting this information from those people. Regardless of what I think of their belief, there are absolutely people who "say they are."

But far more important: I never said "the gods" are all husks. I said that I've encountered this three times. Two or possibly three might be the same deity. Please don't represent my statements incorrectly to make a point.

While I did never state that the gods "need" anyone, it does appear that whatever sustains the deity/deities I've seen look like this, is not enough to match their extensive reach. Like the myths of a Preta or Wendigo continuing to grow or deteriorate as fast as it eats (or faster). NO, I am not saying what I've met is either of those things, at all.

Everyone please stop claiming I said or implied things I absolutely did not.

 

[SkullTraill]

I can't attest to what any of these other people in history have said or thought, but their not bringing it up has a number of possible and likely explanations, aside from just "no one has heard of/thought of it."

Like?

It is extremely unlikely that out of the several billions of people who have ever lived who each had the potential to experience this, that no one put it into writing, or spoke about it. It's not that we're taking that to mean that no one had ever thought/heard about it... maybe they did, but brushed it aside as a day dream or figment of imagination.

I'm sure people have imagined something similar... Perhaps they just did not feel the need to draw connections to the occult when perhaps there were none.

Everyone please stop claiming I said or implied things I absolutely did not.

If everyone (or many people) are claiming you said or implied things that you absolutely did not, maybe you should reflect on improving your own communication skills because you are clearly leading people to believe things you did not mean for them to believe. If it's that big of a deal to you. Otherwise just correct our misunderstandings and move on.

 

[Roma]

The mind, as we know, has various levels (subplanes/frequencies) so that thoughts from one subplane do not easily translate into another.

For example, some people live in a world of polarities (good-bad, capitalist-socialist) and for them, more subtle constructs, such as being a conscious cell within a greater being, are hard to relate to.

The heart, when properly developed, can encompass far more than the mind and a lot faster.

 

[WalkerOfSorrow]

I see...


haha I'm really not some "big guy" occultist. I'm not known, prominent or respected for my opinions/knowledge of the occult/magic. I said "It sounds like you're writing fluff for D&D" not as an insult but literally because it did sound that way to me and I was trying to understand, just like any other member would. The way WF has always worked is this: there are no thought leaders. There is no one here who gets to tell anyone else how to think or how to write (aside from obvious rule breaking). Beyond that, there is no one who "knows more" than anyone else, and we are all free to share and question as peers.

I don't want anyone to think that just because I'm the admin here that I am the most senior occultist here (that couldn't be further from the truth) or that my opinion on occult/magical matters is somehow superior to anyone elses, or that just because I have doubts about someones authenticity that everyone else should as well. I'm just a member here, and WF is still quite small, so don't worry.


Feel free to elaborate why it is inaccurate to your life experience. It's not really "ad nauseum" though is it. This is a forum, it used to be a very large forum, and it's not possible to expect those who are discussing a topic in X thread be intimately familiar with you/your history/something you said in Y thread.

It's completely fine to talk a lot, and I really do encourage it. Don't think that my questions here, or my doubts about any particular thing you say are a reason for you to stop sharing. I am just one person. I'm not "special". You can keep posting despite me not agreeing with you as long as you are following the rules.


I know it's none of that... I don't expect it to be scientific... but like @Mider2009 said above, surely you are not the first occultist to ever encounter this phenomenon. Surely you can explain it in terms of already established/understood occult terminology, practice, knowledge. Surely this isn't something entirely novel that you discovered and are enlightening us about? Because that's what this thread has sounded like.

With respect, it's sounded like either a larping fantasy/finctional story OR it's sounded like you've encountered some entirely novel phenomena extra to the current general occult understanding/knowledge/consensus. Which is possible, but unlikely.

If it's neither of those, then there surely must be a more objective, concise way to explain what you experienced in terms of the general modern understanding of magick/the occult.


"Science" also requires accurate, concise descriptions.
"Science" also requires reproducible, testable experiments.

I don't see you describing how anyone else is to try and achieve what you purport to achieve? I'm not one to often conflate science and the occult, but I do agree in the scienficic process and it is your lack thereof which I am calling to question here.

Instead of clearly defining the steps one has to take to try and achieve the same result that you were asking for, and instead of objectively defining what is to be seen/noticed, you figuratively, vaguely, poetically describe something that no one except you would really be able to fully grasp and you ask if anyone's experienced that? I should think not. There's nothing remotely scienfic about this thread... that's the problem.

To be clear:
I am not questioning why you'd ask "has anyone experienced this". I am questioning how you'd expect anyone who reads this thread and the vague, fantastical, almost-poetic "scientific" (they're not) descriptions of the phenomena and be able to with any truth or accuracy tell you that they have experienced the same?

As an aside:


I really couldn't care less. This vision of this forum is the antithesis of that ideology.

You misunderstand me. Nothing I've said has been repeated ad nauseum specifically because I've set things up where that's less necessary.


Here is my brief elaboration. Much of human understanding enters philosophy before it enters science, almost necessarily. Philosophy, by its nature, starts with broad abstracts and poetic concepts, and breaks them down into something that can be logically, then scientifically, processed. Your assertion that people don't often require grappling with that doesn't line up with anything I've ever experienced in life, as most people I've met deal in those grand scales and abstracts on a daily basis. Comparatively few people in this world are adept at cold logic and hard facts, as you seem to believe they are.

Let me be clear, I have had minimal exposure to organized occult practice. I have had to learn much of my survival skills and practical information from scratch. What I HAVE had, in abundance, is dogmatic religion forced down my throat along with their fabricated version of "Facts." I have a natural and instinctive repulsion to that, and inherently do NOT trust any organized occult tradition -- except where I can show that their beliefs and traditions are backed by something valuable and/or reliable. I understand all of that probably raises some hairs around here, but I am open to hearing all of your viewpoints, regardless of backing. It's just that I don't immediately assign them trust or even a possible sense of validity on the basis of them being old, ritualistic, or well-known. I could care less if the majority of occultists or even scientists think something, unless they have demonstrated reliably in a means I can access (or have accessed for me) that any of it can be trusted. I was raised by believers in majority belief; it means nothing to me.

I do not have all my ducks in a row about this new encounter, and am actively studying it. My mistake, apparently, was thinking that asking people about it before my doctoral dissertation on the subject was finished, was a good idea or welcome in any way. Is this not a forum for discussion of things to better learn about them? Can I not ask questions without first knowing extensively the fine points of what I am asking?

Where in the thread have I given ANY indication that I think this is novel? That I am enlightening you with some kind of narcissistic knowledge? I certainly never intended to. I did open this up to hear if anyone else has?

The only reason I bring up anything about science is because it seems like that's your primary focus.