[Help] The first step on the Right Hand Path

[Mashreqi]

Hello What do you suggest for a newcomer starting the Right Hand Path
I do the LIRP and the Middle Pillar and I meditate I want to know what the next step is

 

[Nembra]

Depends what do you understand by "right hand path". It's really a somewhat loose vibe rather than a system of practice. The two rituals you listed are of Hermetic origin, so would probably considered left hand practices.

 

[Mashreqi]

Depends what do you understand by "right hand path". It's really a somewhat loose vibe rather than a system of practice. The two rituals you listed are of Hermetic origin, so would probably considered left hand practices.

Do you mean that the teachings of Hermes belong to the Left Hand Path?

 

[Nembra]

Do you mean that the teachings of Hermes belong to the Left Hand Path?

Disregard what I said. Weirdly, I think I've got them switched.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 11:08 PM

Usually Hermetic-derived practices are indeed classified under RHP.

I do have quite some experience with systems some would call right-handed but the "hands" are not very precisely-defined categories and - in my opinion - not really useful ones, so I'm not sure if I can advise you anything.

 

[ahathoor]

I'm of the strongest conviction that the fact humans have a pair of hands, left and right, has divine meaning in this question.

Ultimately, the division of RHP vs LHP, along with the simplifying explanations of "unity vs. individuation", "devotional vs selfish", etc., and the clean split of famous practicioners into these categories have the approximate depth of a kindergarten picture book (and a particularly didactic one). I'll try to give you my current vague understanding as a simple, conflicted lover of God.

That you started working with the right hand, I assume you are seeking purification and "sight of God". My recommendation is to not make the mistake of assuming a set list of practices will get you there - in my view theurgy is primarily a mindset of humility, honest curiosity and love (of life, of God, of the Work). You don't do it with the intention to "get somewhere" (that's your left hand, also needed of course), but to "be the sort of person who does these things".

 

[Mashreqi]

I'm of the strongest conviction that the fact humans have a pair of hands, left and right, has divine meaning in this question.

Ultimately, the division of RHP vs LHP, along with the simplifying explanations of "unity vs. individuation", "devotional vs selfish", etc., and the clean split of famous practicioners into these categories have the approximate depth of a kindergarten picture book (and a particularly didactic one). I'll try to give you my current vague understanding as a simple, conflicted lover of God.

That you started working with the right hand, I assume you are seeking purification and "sight of God". My recommendation is to not make the mistake of assuming a set list of practices will get you there - in my view theurgy is primarily a mindset of humility, honest curiosity and love (of life, of God, of the Work). You don't do it with the intention to "get somewhere" (that's your left hand, also needed of course), but to "be the sort of person who does these things".

Yes it is understandable to me that the righthand path should not be a way to gratify the ego and attain something
Rather following this path should be a desire without expectation that results from maturity and passing beyond the desires that most humans run after until the end of their lives like a dog running after a bone without having understood why it is this way
But on the other hand in my opinion there is no reason to follow the left hand or right hand path and it is a choice whether you want to distance yourself from the ego and pleasure by enduring suffering and be a virtuous person
Maybe it seems simple but does good and evil exist beyond the human mind as a real entity in the world?
Physics and empirical sciences have not discovered anything called good or evil but is this matter an undeniable reality in the occult?
I started learning the occult to understand the world more but only more questions have arisen for me

 

[ahathoor]

What I am trying to say is, it's less of a choice than most believe. In my understanding it's a matter of balance.

There is of course the choice one can make to follow a monastic path and dedicate their life at great sacrifice, or to pursue power and delight above all else. I wouldn't call it "good or evil" as such, those words are charged and if we overuse them, they lose applicability and power for when they are required.

Theurgy is not about enduring suffering or giving up pleasure, nor about distancing from the "ego", nor any of those surface level ideas. It is about imposing discipline under a guiding mindset.

One could, and some do, endure great ascesis, starvation, sacrifice and self-inflicected pain to achieve mastery over powers that will make them a billionnaire or destroy their enemies - that's not theurgy or "right hand" at all. And one can have a discipline of daily prayer and meditation, rituals to embody the cosmic order in one's life, good food and pleasant intoxicants in moderation, even pleasing and meaningful sex with someone (or even someone*s*) they love, a comfortable home, walks in nature filled with wonder and joy... which, well, is.

Discipline is a strange thing... it's like cold showers, waking up early, or doing sports. These things are hard to decide and do, but if you do them, you are rewarded with great joy and pleasure. It's not about taking things away from yourself, it's about creating structure for better things to arrive than sleeping until noon every day.

 

[Nembra]

Yes it is understandable to me that the righthand path should not be a way to gratify the ego and attain something
Rather following this path should be a desire without expectation that results from maturity and passing beyond the desires that most humans run after until the end of their lives like a dog running after a bone without having understood why it is this way
But on the other hand in my opinion there is no reason to follow the left hand or right hand path and it is a choice whether you want to distance yourself from the ego and pleasure by enduring suffering and be a virtuous person
Maybe it seems simple but does good and evil exist beyond the human mind as a real entity in the world?
Physics and empirical sciences have not discovered anything called good or evil but is this matter an undeniable reality in the occult?
I started learning the occult to understand the world more but only more questions have arisen for me

Maybe it's a bit heavy tool for this topic, but physical reality is not intrinsically subdivided into objects. They all exist in no other ways than as abstract constructs, a table or a hellium atom is in terms of ontological categorisation not that different from the concept of good or evil.

I don't think abandoning desire is a sign of maturity, by the way. I have roughly symmetric reasons to dislike both of the mainline "one-handed" philosophies, and the problem with RHP is that it's fundamentally antihumanist. It seeks to cut off the pieces of nature that don't fit its idea of divinity, the rather ugly origins of which it almost never dares to examine. It's this current of haughty, heavenly-themed form of hatered towards life that's shared between Gnosticism and most forms of Buddhism.

 

[Mashreqi]

Maybe it's a bit heavy tool for this topic, but physical reality is not intrinsically subdivided into objects. They all exist in no other ways than as abstract constructs, a table or a hellium atom is in terms of ontological categorisation not that different from the concept of good or evil.

I don't think abandoning desire is a sign of maturity, by the way. I have roughly symmetric reasons to dislike both of the mainline "one-handed" philosophies, and the problem with RHP is that it's fundamentally antihumanist. It seeks to cut off the pieces of nature that don't fit its idea of divinity, the rather ugly origins of which it almost never dares to examine. It's this current of haughty, heavenly-themed form of hatered towards life that's shared between Gnosticism and most forms of Buddhism.

Oh my friend when a bullet made of a hot lead atom tore your heart open and came out from the other side of your body there is no longer any organ that can circulate oxygen carrying blood in your body at that moment those abstract concepts that seem to you no different from a helium atom do not make you stay alive because based on the rigid laws of the world this event is completely logical
What is true is the gravity of the earth and these discussions are merely speculation at least for me because I have not yet experienced anything from these matters that is as real to me as the gravity of the earth

 

[Nembra]

Oh my friend when a bullet made of a hot lead atom tore your heart open and came out from the other side of your body there is no longer any organ that can circulate oxygen carrying blood in your body at that moment those abstract concepts that seem to you no different from a helium atom do not make you stay alive because based on the rigid laws of the world this event is completely logical
What is true is the gravity of the earth and these discussions are merely speculation at least for me because I have not yet experienced anything from these matters that is as real to me as the gravity of the earth

Calling an assortment of observations "gravity" is a construction made by your mind. Blood, body, organs, lead, heat, and bullets are abstract objects made of sequences of sensations intricately woven by the mind. All the things you call real are within your mind, they at best can be about whatever inscrutable pattern of phenomena is on the outside.

 

[Accipeveldare]

I'm of the strongest conviction that the fact humans have a pair of hands, left and right, has divine meaning in this question.

Ultimately, the division of RHP vs LHP, along with the simplifying explanations of "unity vs. individuation", "devotional vs selfish", etc., and the clean split of famous practicioners into these categories have the approximate depth of a kindergarten picture book (and a particularly didactic one). I'll try to give you my current vague understanding as a simple, conflicted lover of God.

That you started working with the right hand, I assume you are seeking purification and "sight of God". My recommendation is to not make the mistake of assuming a set list of practices will get you there - in my view theurgy is primarily a mindset of humility, honest curiosity and love (of life, of God, of the Work). You don't do it with the intention to "get somewhere" (that's your left hand, also needed of course), but to "be the sort of person who does these things".

In my experience, the only left hand approach to hermeticism is just achieve apotheosis so you can become a more humble, better lover of God.

 

[Mashreqi]

What I am trying to say is, it's less of a choice than most believe. In my understanding it's a matter of balance.

There is of course the choice one can make to follow a monastic path and dedicate their life at great sacrifice, or to pursue power and delight above all else. I wouldn't call it "good or evil" as such, those words are charged and if we overuse them, they lose applicability and power for when they are required.

Theurgy is not about enduring suffering or giving up pleasure, nor about distancing from the "ego", nor any of those surface level ideas. It is about imposing discipline under a guiding mindset.

One could, and some do, endure great ascesis, starvation, sacrifice and self-inflicected pain to achieve mastery over powers that will make them a billionnaire or destroy their enemies - that's not theurgy or "right hand" at all. And one can have a discipline of daily prayer and meditation, rituals to embody the cosmic order in one's life, good food and pleasant intoxicants in moderation, even pleasing and meaningful sex with someone (or even someone*s*) they love, a comfortable home, walks in nature filled with wonder and joy... which, well, is.

Discipline is a strange thing... it's like cold showers, waking up early, or doing sports. These things are hard to decide and do, but if you do them, you are rewarded with great joy and pleasure. It's not about taking things away from yourself, it's about creating structure for better things to arrive than sleeping until noon every day.

This is ultimately the advice you are giving and you think it is correct am I right?
So ultimately it is only a choice whether to choose to practice asceticism for the rest of your life and avoid pleasure or to drown yourself in pleasure in every vile way or to take the middle ground
Do you have experience and evidence that says which path is correct and takes this matter beyond a simple choice with whatever reason you make for yourself to follow it
I am stuck between the contradictions of the simple facts of this world and transcendent matters I have only obtained evidence that says magic works there are many things that are questionable about magic and those who have worked in this field for years and have summoned great angels and demons I think they too have no idea what is going on here they have only distracted their minds from thousands of different questions and contradictions we are ultimately ignorant humans and no correct statement can be made out of the fact that I am not certain

Also based on my own temperament and gaining experience I want to step onto the right hand path is faith in God necessary because I do not have faith in him

 

[ahathoor]

So ultimately it is only a choice whether to choose to practice asceticism for the rest of your life and avoid pleasure or to drown yourself in pleasure in every vile way or to take the middle ground
Do you have experience and evidence that says which path is correct and takes this matter beyond a simple choice with whatever reason you make for yourself to follow it

It's as nuanced as life itself. Seeking simple, unequivocal answers is a universal drive, and a good motivator, but can become a trap.

What is the ascetic monk really giving up, and what does he gain? Is a bedroll on a clean-swept floor, an environment of purity and serene beauty, and an immeasurable abundance of time and attention to contemplate really such a great loss? Is the power-hungry glutton really enjoying all the fruits of his strivings and machinations?

But also, is one living a life chasing delight necessarily turning his back on the higher purposes, and is the ascete necessarily following a path of pure intentions of love and humility?

We all choose, every moment, according to our wisdom, circumstances, and Purpose. It's not a once-and-done decision, and it's not a sliding scale between good and evil, pain and pleasure, pride and humility, or ascetism and delight either.

We live and learn, and choose anew every day. There is nothing I can (or should) tell you that would solve this question for you. It's the task, the question of being human, sorry. No-one said it was going to be simple.

All I can tell you is no matter how you choose, please don't be an asshat.

Also based on my own temperament and gaining experience I want to step onto the right hand path is faith in God necessary because I do not have faith in him

God is a difficult topic to grapple with; our society has severe religious PTSD. You're fine. Just don't close your mind and heart, and you might eventually find an understanding on your path of what I mean by "love of God" that you can vibe with.

 

[MorganBlack]

Not a fan of RHP vs LHP as terminology. . I do Hot vs. Cool. Order vs. Chaos. Love vs Power.Together they are also a continuum that must be negotiated, not a binary

"RHP" is just what human do in communities. "LHP" is what we do in warfare and negotiation with enemies or dangerous creatures. Adopting LHP as a permanent stance is like being around a survivalist prepper who walks around with a AR-15 only talk about their guns, guns, guns. (Magic is a gun.)

More an object of pity who needs our help than someone to be scorned. You know that boy was put in a cage and whipped somewhere in their life.

In Brujeria and Vodou, and in the broader folk-magical world, "Left-Hand" tends to mean dealing with the violent or chaotic aspects of reality, of nature - the parts of existence that don't cooperate with order, safety, or social harmony. A qualifier is needed here. This is not the Byronic "adversary" identity who opposes cosmic order on principle. It's better described as the chaotic, liminal, dis-ordering space of the chthonic underworld - the spooky, dark, underworld, paranormal, sometimes corrupting, layer of reality that folk practice negotiates with. The register here is disordering and dangerous, not adversarial and defiant.

Whereas the 19th–20th century Anglo occult revival was largely a literary and psychological project wearing the costume of operative sorcery and mysticism . It took the vocabulary of older traditions- initiation, apotheosis (from Catholic mysticism, btw) , and the sorcercer's Left-hand (both an unfortunate import from Blavatsky and theosophy) - and used it for identity-construction rather than spirit-communication. The result here was a symbolic system with no one on the other end of the daimonic ghost line.

It is not their area of interest and they are usually very afraid of the left-hand , chthonic, dangerous manifestations as any strip-mall Protestant. If you are going to mess with magic then I suggest also go far enougg into it to also learn the protections of magic. If not stay with the nice"magic" of prayer, New Thought Positive Mind Metaphysics, both of which are totally amazing. The "RHP" has got plenty going on. No need to dive into a violent and chaotic world.

The sorcerer and the Exorcist is the updated job titles of the old "shaman" of the past and 80% of our job is protecting the community and our family against the more hostile or dangerous denizens of the spirt world. Not this philosophical identity politics LARP that floods "occult" spaces. That just confuses people.

 

[Mashreqi]

Not a fan of RHP vs LHP as terminology. . I do Hot vs. Cool. Order vs. Chaos. Love vs Power.Together they are also a continuum that must be negotiated, not a binary

"RHP" is just what human do in communities. "LHP" is what we do in warfare and negotiation with enemies or dangerous creatures. Adopting LHP as a permanent stance is like being around a survivalist prepper who walks around with a AR-15 only talk about their guns, guns, guns. (Magic is a gun.)

More an object of pity who needs our help than someone to be scorned. You know that boy was put in a cage and whipped somewhere in their life.

In Brujeria and Vodou, and in the broader folk-magical world, "Left-Hand" tends to mean dealing with the violent or chaotic aspects of reality, of nature - the parts of existence that don't cooperate with order, safety, or social harmony. A qualifier is needed here. This is not the Byronic "adversary" identity who opposes cosmic order on principle. It's better described as the chaotic, liminal, dis-ordering space of the chthonic underworld - the spooky, dark, underworld, paranormal, sometimes corrupting, layer of reality that folk practice negotiates with. The register here is disordering and dangerous, not adversarial and defiant.

Whereas the 19th–20th century Anglo occult revival was largely a literary and psychological project wearing the costume of operative sorcery and mysticism . It took the vocabulary of older traditions- initiation, apotheosis (from Catholic mysticism, btw) , and the sorcercer's Left-hand (both an unfortunate import from Blavatsky and theosophy) - and used it for identity-construction rather than spirit-communication. The result here was a symbolic system with no one on the other end of the daimonic ghost line.

It is not their area of interest and they are usually very afraid of the left-hand , chthonic, dangerous manifestations as any strip-mall Protestant. If you are going to mess with magic then I suggest also go far enougg into it to also learn the protections of magic. If not stay with the nice"magic" of prayer, New Thought Positive Mind Metaphysics, both of which are totally amazing. The "RHP" has got plenty going on. No need to dive into a violent and chaotic world.

The sorcerer and the Exorcist is the updated job titles of the old "shaman" of the past and 80% of our job is protecting the community and our family against the more hostile or dangerous denizens of the spirt world. Not this philosophical identity politics LARP that floods "occult" spaces. That just confuses people.

I would like to understand the dark and underground part of the world but is using such magic in some cases not a violation of ethics
and does using magic that is called LHP block RHP magic for example is there no angel that because of using evil magic no longer supports you

 

[ahathoor]

@Mashreqi:

I would like to understand the dark and underground part of the world but is using such magic in some cases not a violation of ethics
and does using magic that is called LHP block RHP magic for example is there no angel that because of using evil magic no longer supports you

The "dark" magic (sorcery) that @MorganBlack is talking about is the process of dealing with. building relationships with, and utilizing what one might call the "spirit world", "daimonic reality", "sublunar realm", etc. It's not a violation of ethics as long as you as a practicioner embody the world tree, forming a conduit from the heavens to the underworld and back.

But while it's not unethical, it's dangerous. So I wouldn't recommend you start there, unless you've been called and taken by a spirit patron as some shamanic workers are (which I guess you weren't...)

 

[MorganBlack]

Yep yep!! Using symbolic systems in and of themselves is not a volition of ethics, morals, nor virtue. It is what you do with them

In Brujeria, Vodou, and related New World sorcery traditions, symbols are communicative instruments - a language for addressing and negotiating with the spirit world. So you will see "Left hand" saints there to help negotiate with that world but also as an expression of it.

It is mediation with the Dark. "LHP" here is hot. It is red, fire, anger, gunpowder, pepper, nails, on the somatic symbolic side, , and the colors red and black, images of flames, Hell, devils are visual symbolic side, but both are meaning for spirits, not for humans to make a costume out of.

There is a left-hand manifestation of Saint Peter holdd the Keys to Hell , and the symbolic system he appears in / he is a red St Peter with devils horns. Is he "really" St. Peter? Who cares? Same deal with the Witchfather / The Folkloric Devil, imho. Similar job / role being done in different symbolic registers.

There is probably a bigger conversation about Platonic Realism vs. Platonic Nominalism here but we never get to it, becasue eof these silly social identity grudge matches, that I feel are a distraction. Maybe that is what they are for. Magic protects it own becasue you can become a real monster with it. Seriously. If you cant get past this ring-pass-not, it is probably not for you. And that is a knife that cuts both ways, btw.

Anyway, left hand St, Peter appears with the devils horns, but here these symbols are not expressions of the practitioner's inner self. They are utterances. They speak something into the Dark, and out of the Dark something comes. Wheather you are attacting it, or something forms - is open to debate. I think it is a bit of both. The daimons are alwasy half you, so bring your best self.

This open up the bigger issue of what is the nature of "evil". In Vodou and more 'shamanic' understanding of these things - that which we call "evil" is understood that which hurts your community, family - and now by extensionyour nation. You have an obligation to oppose it.

So some Anglo LHP Satanists (not all, some are super cool) could be considered "evil" because they interprept their "self-deification" in purely destructive terms, and want to attack society, family, community, and nation. Dunno why. Much is soceity that is wrong is the result of psychopaths taking over systems and institutions not any religion. I think their worldview is short-sighted.

But they are not 'evil" just because they dress in costumes and invert Chrtistian symbolic systems. One of my fave esoteric people is a self-identifed "Satanist" who is also a good, Jewish boy from New York. Other Anglo LHP folks are quite patritoic and I consider them on the right (ha!) side of things, no matter what personal symbolic systems they use.

 

[frater_pan]

Hello What do you suggest for a newcomer starting the Right Hand Path
I do the LIRP and the Middle Pillar and I meditate I want to know what the next step is

You should consider adding meditation, both concentration meditation and analytic meditation tailored to your current understanding of the RHP.

You could investigate applying Islamic, Judaic or Christian approaches to magick (for example, using Psalms as magickal invocations) or investigating angel magick (which is not always RHP btw). In general take a look at Christian or Jewish Hermeticism and the Rosicrucian current including the Builders of the Adytum or Dion Fortune's still functioning Servants of the Light or similar groups. A form of divination that speaks to you will be essential.

 

[Mashreqi]

You should consider adding meditation, both concentration meditation and analytic meditation tailored to your current understanding of the RHP.

You could investigate applying Islamic, Judaic or Christian approaches to magick (for example, using Psalms as magickal invocations) or investigating angel magick (which is not always RHP btw). In general take a look at Christian or Jewish Hermeticism and the Rosicrucian current including the Builders of the Adytum or Dion Fortune's still functioning Servants of the Light or similar groups. A form of divination that speaks to you will be essential.

Thank you that was all the guidance I needed I just didn't understand the divination part could you explain it more