The Holy Trinity and the Pagan

[StarOfSitra]

One of the central topics in Christianity is the figure of the Holy Trinity, which represents three persons of the same God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It has long been considered a great mystery—one deeply studied and yet often misunderstood, even by Christians themselves, including monks and members of the Church.

Saint Augustine once reflected so intensely upon this mystery that he is said to have fallen into a trance or deep contemplation. In a famous story, a child told him that it would be easier to empty the entire ocean into a small hole in the sand than to fully comprehend the mystery of the Trinity.

For us, students of the occult, this concept is one we completely understand. Humanity, in ancient times, also grasped it; but artificial faith and arrogance have since obscured that understanding. Three parts of the same whole... Wait—just like the pagan gods!

Christianity, in essence, has three gods who together form one being, each representing an aspect of the whole divine power. The whole divine power is not merely the Father—the Father is but one part of it. Likewise, pagans regard their deities as archetypal forces of the same divine essence, separated into specific aspects. The difference is that where Christianity recognizes three divine aspects, paganism recognizes many more, each representing a more specific facet of divinity.

Therefore, Christianity can in fact be seen as a polytheistic religion, contrary to Judaism and Islam. When Christians speak of “God,” they refer to the entire divine totality—the sum of all three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)—similar to the Great Spirit of the Native Americans: the supreme consciousness that embodies the totality of divine power.

StarOfSitra

 

[MorganBlack]

Love your explorations here, StarOfSitra.

Wish i had something more definitive , so please pardon my scattershotting of interesting connections!

A definitive text for magic folks on this gigantic topic has yet to be written by somebody.

And unless folks break out of the WitchTok echo chamber of confirmation bias, read histoical texts, I get this this will sound like a mystic mashup shit throwing Zeus, Jesus, and some kabbalistic cosmic cocktail into a blender and hitting puree.

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I usually work within a very ecumenical mythic framework of Folk Catholicism, Judaic Kabbalah, and Greco-Egyptian ("pagan") PGM rites,
synthesizing through an Underworld Solar Pantheism, so the interconnections between these mythic frameworks are my jam.

The first 300 to 400 years of the Catholic Church is closer to what might be called 'Christo-Paganism' (a term I do not like.)

Many of the Church Fathers were initiated into the highly secretive Mystery Cults. Early Christianity, as far as I can tell, was the only public mystery cult of the ancient world, and it is closer together than Protestantism, the Catholic Church, or modern Neopagans are willing to admit.
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FYI, It was only after the barbarian German tribes (the Franks) got hold of it with the Fall of Rome that Christianity became nasty. But that is on the barbarians who lived in mud huts.

Barbarian Franks turned Christianity into a mud-hut massacre. But the paganism of backwoods rapists and headchoppers = good! Riiight.

While I am not a fan of the Holy See, Anti-Catholicism is mostly an artifact of the British and Dutch empires ganging up on their economic competitor, the Spanish Empire. This misinformation and bias is unwittingly, without reading or thinking, in Anglophone esoteric circles.
----------------------
I agree with Dr. Martin Shaw's pithy statement that Jesus is the last Greek god. Like, spot on!

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-----------------------
Funny thing.
Roman Hellenic pagans would try to insult the early Christians saying to them, "You just worship the sun."
To which they would reply, "Well, so do you."
-------------------
OK, UPG warning...

The Trinity 'is' a specific modulation of the Father, to focus on his kinder aspects and loving aspects. Notice the similarity in His popular iconography and Zeus - the toga, the clouds, the lightning bolts... I mean, come on!

Which is not to say he "is" Zeus, but Zeus is one of his names. The aspects of the Sephiroth Chesed (Jupiter) are grace, kindness and good will toward all. The foundation of Christian charity.

The Father is closer to The One, but has to include all things, being Infinite, and that includes things we humans do not like. Those aspects of reality we mythologize as Saturnian and Martial elements, or misfortune (bad luck).

And in defense of more esoteric Judaism, Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism is a very, very late 12th century formulation. Early Catholicism, not the late Frankish Church, owes more to the Judaism of the time than we know.

It's also possible to look at early Judaism through a very pagan lens. Some of the "pagans" of the time sure seemed to.

From Skinner's "The Goetia of Dr. Rudd"

A third and last attempt at rebuilding the Temple has been given very little
attention. It took place under the reign of Julian, the last pagan Roman
Emperor (reigned 360-363 CE) who decreed that all pagan temples should be
rebuilt, including the great Temple of Solomon. Julian ruled after the
Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman
Empire. Julian, often called 'the Apostate' had been brought up a Christian,
but discovered that the pagan beliefs of his forefathers were more to his taste,
and much more intellectually satisfying than those of the 'Gallileans', which
is how he referred to Christians. [snip]

As Rome had destroyed the Temple of Solomon (or more accurately its
second incarnation as reconstruction by Herod) so Julian decreed that Rome
would also have to pay to restore it. Julian even referred to it as the 'new
Temple of the Most High God'. He saw it as a pagan temple, and an
important one at that. Work began in 363 CE with the clearing of the existing
foundations on the platform, and it was funded by the Imperial treasury as a
high priority project.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Many of the Church Fathers were initiated into the highly secretive Mystery Cults.

This isn't true. They wrote condemning them. The closest thing would be Augustine's time in Manicheanism, which wasn't a mystery school.

---------------------
FYI, It was only after the barbarian German tribes (the Franks) got hold of it with the Fall of Rome that Christianity became nasty. But that is on the barbarians who lived in mud huts.

This is completely ahistorical. Theodosius and Constantius had pagans executed.

It's also possible to look at early Judaism through a very pagan lens. Some of the "pagans" of the time sure seemed to.

From Skinner's "The Goetia of Dr. Rudd"

A third and last attempt at rebuilding the Temple has been given very little
attention. It took place under the reign of Julian, the last pagan Roman
Emperor (reigned 360-363 CE) who decreed that all pagan temples should be
rebuilt, including the great Temple of Solomon. Julian ruled after the
Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman
Empire. Julian, often called 'the Apostate' had been brought up a Christian,
but discovered that the pagan beliefs of his forefathers were more to his taste,
and much more intellectually satisfying than those of the 'Gallileans', which
is how he referred to Christians. [snip]

Yeah, I think historians would say Julian was trying to weaken Christianity with his favoring of Jews.

I dont know why occultists feel a need to validate themselves with these archaic religious dogmas anyway (ok I do know why, I explained it in another post).

 

[MorganBlack]

I track mythic threads, and you need a story to interact with the daimons.

Your "Well, awkshully, " does not apply here.

Solar Pantheism is more serviceable, ... and is even better .. is hated enough by modern CIA / MK-Ultra / Theosophical l head-trippers to make them stay far away from Goetia.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Your "Well, awkshully, " does not apply here.

It kinda does when you falsely claim many church fathers were mystery school initiates.

And when you falsely claim Christianity only became severely repressive due to barbarian hordes.

 

[Morell]

I agree that one has to be careful to not idealize the past.

People were people back then as much as they are now. With both good and bad.

 

[MorganBlack]

OK, point. The Church Fathers' knowledge about mystery religions as evidence of participation in them may be overstated by 19th to 20th century comparative religion theories.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:41 PM

I was in a hurry and overstated the case.

You were right to nitpick, even while you miss the forest for the trees.

But since this is a really simple research question, I asked Claude AI to do the spadework for us, asking it the question:

"While there is little evidence of the Church fathers being initiated in any mystery cults, the mythic similarity between Christianity and Orphism and Neoplatonism appear to have been a synthesis influenced by each other from their close proximity in Alexandria. These were their neighbors in the area. Thoughts? "
------------------------------
Claude:
--------------------------------
You're asking a more nuanced question now, and you're right that Alexandria was a remarkable intellectual melting pot. Let me address both parts:

Evidence of Church Fathers in Mystery Cults?

No direct evidence exists that any Church Fathers were formally initiated into mystery religions. However, there are some interesting cases of pre-conversion involvement:

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 CE) - He explicitly describes his own philosophical journey before converting to Christianity, studying with Stoics, Peripatetics, and Pythagoreans. He was deeply engaged with Greek philosophy but doesn't claim mystery cult initiation.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 CE) - This is the most interesting case. He:

• Shows detailed knowledge of mystery cult terminology and practices
• Uses mystery language metaphorically for Christian initiation
• Some scholars debate whether his knowledge suggests prior participation or just thorough education
• Most scholars lean toward the latter—he was an educated Alexandrian who knew about these practices

Augustine (354-430 CE) - Was a Manichaean for nine years before conversion, but Manichaeism wasn't exactly a Greco-Roman mystery cult

Alexandria: The Intellectual Crossroads​

You're absolutely correct about cultural proximity and mutual influence rather than direct initiation. Alexandria was extraordinary:


The Mix:

• Jewish communities (Philo's allegorical methods)
• Greek philosophical schools (especially Platonism)
• Hermetic traditions
• Egyptian religious elements
• Early Christian catechetical schools

Key Figures in the Blend:

Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE - 50 CE) - Jewish philosopher who heavily used Platonic categories to interpret Torah, creating a template for allegorical interpretation

Clement of Alexandria - Explicitly tried to show Christianity as the "true philosophy," borrowing:

• Platonic metaphysics
• Stoic ethics
• Mystery cult language for describing Christian initiation (calling baptism and Eucharist "mysteries")

Origen (c. 185-253 CE) - Student of Clement, took allegorical interpretation even further, deeply influenced by Neoplatonism

The Neoplatonic Connection:

This is particularly significant. Plotinus (204-270 CE) studied in Alexandria, possibly at the same school where Origen taught. His student Porphyry was familiar with Christianity and wrote against it. Later:

• Augustine was heavily influenced by Neoplatonism before and after conversion
• Christian theology absorbed Neoplatonic concepts (hierarchy of being, the One/Good, spiritual ascent)

The Better Model​

You're right that intellectual osmosis is a better explanation than secret initiation:

1. Shared vocabulary - Terms like mysterion, gnosis, theoria were common philosophical currency
2. Common problems - How does the material relate to spiritual? How do humans access the divine?
3. Competitive dialogue - Christians were arguing in the same marketplace of ideas, so they adopted and adapted concepts to make their case
4. Educational background - Educated converts brought their philosophical training with them

The Orphic-Christian similarities (dying-rising deity, immortality of soul, salvation through sacred knowledge/ritual) probably reflect both:

• Common Hellenistic religious themes floating in the culture
• Christians consciously positioning their message in terms their neighbors would understand

This is very different from claiming Church Fathers were mystery cult initiates—it's more like they were all drinking from the same cultural wells in Alexandria and other cosmopolitan centers.

 

[Morell]

OK, point. The Church Fathers' knowledge about mystery religions as evidence of participation in them may be overstated by 19th to 20th century comparative religion theories.

Possibly. Also I would think that it is easy to fall there into wishful thinking. I mean idolizing the times and people. I can honestly say that I fell for that rabbit hole few times.

 

[MorganBlack]

Agreed.

We are narrative creatures. We know Goetia is tree with four intertwined root branches: Judaism (with Babylon in the background), Arabic, Greek pagan, and Christian sources.

Everyone who approaches it does so through their preferred narrative. It does not make any of them "wrong. " In fact I feel they are all valid entry-points.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:26 PM

I can honestly say that I fell for that rabbit hole few times.

Heheh! We all need to fall down the rabbit hole even more! The only way out is through.

For instance , I love Jake Stratton-Kent's revival of the Greek necromantic thread of western magic. We all went a little bit crazy with it because e we were missing a mythic synthesis that was not as aggressively anti-spirit, and fearful of the paranormal as the more Christian -Jewish "Solomonic" root branches (which also do not exist, in any 'real' historical sense) .

These are all myths. But that is a feature, not a bug. The daimons, from my own lived experiences, are quite real, but the stories we tell about them to "explain" them are not.

 

[StarOfSitra]

Love your explorations here, StarOfSitra.

Wish i had something more definitive , so please pardon my scattershotting of interesting connections!

A definitive text for magic folks on this gigantic topic has yet to be written by somebody.

And unless folks break out of the WitchTok echo chamber of confirmation bias, read histoical texts, I get this this will sound like a mystic mashup shit throwing Zeus, Jesus, and some kabbalistic cosmic cocktail into a blender and hitting puree.

-------------------
I usually work within a very ecumenical mythic framework of Folk Catholicism, Judaic Kabbalah, and Greco-Egyptian ("pagan") PGM rites,
synthesizing through an Underworld Solar Pantheism, so the interconnections between these mythic frameworks are my jam.

The first 300 to 400 years of the Catholic Church is closer to what might be called 'Christo-Paganism' (a term I do not like.)

Many of the Church Fathers were initiated into the highly secretive Mystery Cults. Early Christianity, as far as I can tell, was the only public mystery cult of the ancient world, and it is closer together than Protestantism, the Catholic Church, or modern Neopagans are willing to admit.
---------------------
FYI, It was only after the barbarian German tribes (the Franks) got hold of it with the Fall of Rome that Christianity became nasty. But that is on the barbarians who lived in mud huts.

Barbarian Franks turned Christianity into a mud-hut massacre. But the paganism of backwoods rapists and headchoppers = good! Riiight.

While I am not a fan of the Holy See, Anti-Catholicism is mostly an artifact of the British and Dutch empires ganging up on their economic competitor, the Spanish Empire. This misinformation and bias is unwittingly, without reading or thinking, in Anglophone esoteric circles.
----------------------
I agree with Dr. Martin Shaw's pithy statement that Jesus is the last Greek god. Like, spot on!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

-----------------------
Funny thing.
Roman Hellenic pagans would try to insult the early Christians saying to them, "You just worship the sun."
To which they would reply, "Well, so do you."
-------------------
OK, UPG warning...

The Trinity 'is' a specific modulation of the Father, to focus on his kinder aspects and loving aspects. Notice the similarity in His popular iconography and Zeus - the toga, the clouds, the lightning bolts... I mean, come on!

Which is not to say he "is" Zeus, but Zeus is one of his names. The aspects of the Sephiroth Chesed (Jupiter) are grace, kindness and good will toward all. The foundation of Christian charity.

The Father is closer to The One, but has to include all things, being Infinite, and that includes things we humans do not like. Those aspects of reality we mythologize as Saturnian and Martial elements, or misfortune (bad luck).

And in defense of more esoteric Judaism, Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism is a very, very late 12th century formulation. Early Catholicism, not the late Frankish Church, owes more to the Judaism of the time than we know.

It's also possible to look at early Judaism through a very pagan lens. Some of the "pagans" of the time sure seemed to.

From Skinner's "The Goetia of Dr. Rudd"

A third and last attempt at rebuilding the Temple has been given very little
attention. It took place under the reign of Julian, the last pagan Roman
Emperor (reigned 360-363 CE) who decreed that all pagan temples should be
rebuilt, including the great Temple of Solomon. Julian ruled after the
Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman
Empire. Julian, often called 'the Apostate' had been brought up a Christian,
but discovered that the pagan beliefs of his forefathers were more to his taste,
and much more intellectually satisfying than those of the 'Gallileans', which
is how he referred to Christians. [snip]

As Rome had destroyed the Temple of Solomon (or more accurately its
second incarnation as reconstruction by Herod) so Julian decreed that Rome
would also have to pay to restore it. Julian even referred to it as the 'new
Temple of the Most High God'. He saw it as a pagan temple, and an
important one at that. Work began in 363 CE with the clearing of the existing
foundations on the platform, and it was funded by the Imperial treasury as a
high priority project.

I see many myths and rumors here.

First of all, none of the Church Fathers were initiated into occult cults. The early Church was divided in its first centuries, and some mystical Christian sects appeared, such as Christian Gnosticism.

Barbarians did not shape Christianity into what it is today — the Council of Nicaea did. The purpose of the council was to unify these early groups into a single, cohesive body. However, Gnostic gospels such as those of Mary Magdalene and Thomas taught that a person could attain salvation and divinity by themselves. This idea did not interest the institutional Church, because it wanted to keep the power to control people by dictating how they could save their souls. That’s what corrupted Christianity — not the barbarians.

“The Trinity is a specific modulation of the Father, to focus on his kinder and more loving aspects.” — That’s not true. The Trinity consists of three persons who are equally important; none is above the others. The Father is not the main figure. In fact, Christ said that the only sin God cannot forgive is the one committed against the Holy Spirit, not against the Father. I’m not the one saying this — you can ask any priest; this is official Church doctrine, not my personal opinion.

The point here is: why are you mixing Judaism, Christianity, and other gods? That makes no sense. Yahweh was originally part of a pantheon of Canaanite gods and had a consort. But when the Canaanites were expelled from Babylon, they adopted Yahweh as the sole, most powerful god, merging his attributes with those of El. Other deities, such as Baal — who had also been sacred to them in the past — were later redefined as either demons or angels serving Yahweh.

Everything I’m saying here is verifiable fact, not opinion. You can easily find sources for all of this.

 

[MorganBlack]

Ah. We all have to find our way through these stories.

I am obviously no mythic literal, and I'm not trying to take away anyone's favorite toys, but consider the late, great historian Russell E. Gmirkin's research suggesting the God of the Old Testament "is" the Demiurge from Plato's Timaeus.

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Sure, everyone with an heterodox bone knows Yahweh started out as a tempestuous desert storm deity, but Gmirkin's research suggests He gets retconned as "The Creator" after Jewish scibes spent days in the Library of Alexandria.

Just saying the history here makes for very suggestive reading, and the mixing precedes me by a couple of millennia.