• Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!

[Opinion] Thelema.. Is it worth studying?

Everyone's got one.

Firetree

Neophyte
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
18
Reaction score
36
just out of curiosity what is your takeaway from the book of the law? specifically with the coded sections.

Ch 1 .... the call of Nuit resonates highly with me . That is understandable if you saw my natal chart :)

Also the 'True Will' * and of course 'Love is the Law ' .

* I mentioned earlier that it is an old concept ( and IMO of extreme importance ..... also living one's 'True Will ' is a key component of Eudamonia - sort of like the opposite of depression ) and was taught by Zoroastrians ;

Khvarenah​

  • [Also spelt khvareno, khvarana or khwarnag (the 'khv/khw' are at times denoted by 'hu'). Middle Persian Pahlavi: khwar, khwarr, or khwarrah. New Persian: Khorra(h). Related Old Persian: farnah. New Persian: farr.]
  • The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.
  • The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].
  • Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life]. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
  • A
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
  • An
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
  • A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
  • The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.
  • There is a strong implication in Zamyad Yasht (Yt 19.46-57) that the khvarenah that does not belong to a person cannot be seized by another person. The implication is that we should be content with our khvarenah and not be jealous or greedy of the other's khvarenah (here, good fortune).
  • When all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    &
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth. (Also see the section on
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , the Aryan homeland, as paradise.)
  • Human beings often limit or loose themselves. In either case, they do not achieve their full potential or capacity.
  • While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.
  • To loose oneself is to loose one's khvarenah.
  • In mythology, the khvarenah is like a bird that hovers over a person, and one that can fly away. If grace is replaced by evil ambitions, the bird is replaced by serpents growing out of that person's shoulders [see
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , Yima Khshaeta (King Jamshid) in the Zamyad Yasht, and
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    ].
  • The source of the khvarenah is said to be the divine spiritual light that is eternal and which casts no shadow (Denkard Madon 347.6-7).
  • A person's realization of her or his khvarenah is evidenced by a halo (farr in Persian), glowing brightly over her or his head - radiant as the sun (khvar/khor). (See portrait of Zarathushtra at the top of the page - a physical representation of something perceived by the spiritual eye and senses.) The opposite of the light of a halo is darkness - like a dark cloud hanging over someone.
  • A person's realization of her or his khvarenah cloaks that person with the aura of charisma and grace, the kind possessed by
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    and
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    .
  • Khvarenah and the resulting charisma enable leadership that does not rely on authority.
  • [For those interested in the etymology of the modern Persian names; Farr, Farah, Farahmand, Farrokh derive from the Old Persian farnah. Farr is translated as halo or nimbus - the aura of spiritual light, a light that casts no shadow, that surrounds a person filled with goodness and grace.]
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

... and these bits :)

12. Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!

13. I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.

- Many religions 'God's' require obedience , subservience , fear even ... ''Fear God ! '' - not thanks .... Pass !


and of course this ; '' the work of the wand and the work of the sword; these he shall learn and teach.'' :) - see recent comments on martial arts and magick

41. The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love:

57. Invoke me under my stars! Love is the law, love under will. Nor let the fools mistake love; for there are love and love. There is the dove, and there is the serpent. Choose ye well!

58; I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life,* upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.

* I can personally attest to this ( again see 'Eudamonia ' ) . .. no sacrifice ;)

and this ritual ;

61. But to love me is better than all things: if under the night stars in the desert thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, and the Serpent flame therein, thou shalt come a little to lie in my bosom. For one kiss wilt thou then be willing to give all; but whoso gives one particle of dust shall lose all in that hour. Ye shall gather goods and store of women and spices; ye shall wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in spendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy. I charge you earnestly to come before me in a single robe, and covered with a rich headdress. I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me! ''

( I have access to desert - its amazing out there under 'her body' - ecstatic ;

scenic-view-of-beach-against-sky-at-night.jpg

Post automatically merged:

I don't believe it is cosmically ordained (however you want to conceive it) for a person to , say, choose playing in a band over becoming an author. I don't believe in purpose at all like this. There are only tendencies, talents and possibilities.

Hang on ... who entered 'cosmically ordained' into this formula ?

Free will is different. It's actually a sliding scale rather than a static, monolithic concept. One gains more as one develops more. The idea that one is 'uncovering' one's 'real' will is actually anathema to real freedom. There are tendencies and possibilities based on mundane physical and social factors, as well as carry-over from previous fragments from other lives (or more than fragments, if the person has developed enough in the past). But that is not the same as a cosmic true will.

What you list can be indications of 'True Will' as one finds their way towards it .

what is this 'Cosmic true will ' you speak of ? crowley never called it 'cosmic true will )


I'm not sure what you mean here.
Post automatically merged:


Runes are more powerful than anything in thelema

Ahhh ... I see now . :)
Post automatically merged:

Thanks for your response!
I don't think that one soul's True Will is cosmically ordained. I think one's True Will is innate and always there. It is a 'flavour' or 'personality' of their current incarnation.
It is using their current body and life in order to help the Earth , but also oneself to raise one's frequency and to become more in line with 'cosmic' harmony or existence. A way to match the primordial AUM?
Now as far as True Will for a soul after this human death, I think that is only a part of an even greater cosmic Will.

Do what thou wilt ..... even after death ?

From the Gnostic Mass;

Unto them from whose eyes the veil of life hath fallen may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labour and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills.
''
We are all like little pieces trying to fit into the larger.
And I think because we live in a Universe with laws like this, as above so below, any kind of egoic fighting against cosmic law, as in 'black magick' or hardcore LHP 'immortality' always ends in failure. All things die and recycle.

I agree that free will is a sliding scale - that is to say, you don't even REALISE the possibilities if you are not attuned to them. Kind of like a drummer able to play a 32nd note in a count, or a boxer able to slip in a jab.

Is this making sense? I dont want to be talking in circles

To sum up , I dont think True Will in Thelema is attempting to be 'THE' Cosmic Will. It is a personal thing for that particular soul.
 
Last edited:

Van Horne

Neophyte
Joined
Sep 11, 2025
Messages
40
Reaction score
78
David is a great person, and I highly recommend his books Living Thelema, and The Way of the Will
Agreed! Both titles are on my bucket list.
Another honorary mention is Richard Kaczynski, I really enjoyed his last book "Mind over Magick".

At the moment I do read "The Magick of Aleister Crowley" by Lon Milo DuQuette. It's more about the practical side Thelemic magick.

Why is this in the left hand path section?
There is also an interesting link to the Frat. Saturni there, but Eugen Grosche/ Fr. Gregorious is a whole other can of worms.

Agreed and agreed!
While many ideas of FS resonate with me I agree this whole concept of Saturn gnosis strays far away from Thelema. I would say Gregorius was simply inspired by Crowley to come up with his own magical-mystical club. As a fellow countryman of Gregorius I simply like the idea of having a very genuine German offshoot to Thelema.

Talking about LHP, one can make the proposal that FS is one of the first original LHP currents, like another Thelema offshoot, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian O.T.O.
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
Agreed! Both titles are on my bucket list.
Another honorary mention is Richard Kaczynski, I really enjoyed his last book "Mind over Magick".

At the moment I do read "The Magick of Aleister Crowley" by Lon Milo DuQuette. It's more about the practical side Thelemic magick.




Agreed and agreed!
While many ideas of FS resonate with me I agree this whole concept of Saturn gnosis strays far away from Thelema. I would say Gregorius was simply inspired by Crowley to come up with his own magical-mystical club. As a fellow countryman of Gregorius I simply like the idea of having a very genuine German offshoot to Thelema.

Talking about LHP, one can make the proposal that FS is one of the first original LHP currents, like another Thelema offshoot, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian O.T.O.
Ein Deutscher! Ich bin froh zum dir kennen zu lernen mit meine schlechte Deutsch :D
Lon DuQuette is a great author, I think his book Enochian Vision Magick is the best and most practical book ever on Enochian magick.
 

Firetree

Neophyte
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
18
Reaction score
36
Crowley says outright 'free will is predestination'. So it's a matter of semantics really. One is 'fitting into' the cosmic schema. Crowley says one doing their true will faces the inertia of the universe so they are 'unopposed', so obviously it's a cosmic perspective.

I challenge that . Where did crowley ever say

Free will is predestination . ???

Free will is the ability to choose one action over another . You seem to have concepts confused .


This is why I prefer the term ' Khvarenah ' - people tend not to confuse it with 'will' , 'free will' , 'destiny' etc .


The whole point of real esotericism is to create an immortal subtle body, so I consider things like this just pointless mysticism.

Ahhh , now I understand .... you dont realise that creating an immortal body is a huge part of the teachings . Maybe because of the 'neo - Egyptian ' terms used .

Try 'The Immortal Osiris ' , 'building the Akh ' , the ' first (or astral ) death' and other similar concepts in Thelema


itrine.jpg
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2025
Messages
210
Reaction score
175
Awards
1
Can you elaborate on why you believe this is so?
Because part of the process is a radical transformation of the physical body. Anyway, Crowley never even spoke about the higher subtle body. He restricted himself to the 'body of light' straight out of the Golden Dawn, which so practices do not lead to ascension (despite Mark Stavish trying to sell a book claiming it does).

What parts are these, to you?
Indefinable, unmapped.
Post automatically merged:

I challenge that . Where did crowley ever say

Free will is predestination . ???
I said predestination, he uses the word destiny, which is the same thing

It is from Magick Without Tears:

'Free-will" is "Destiny"

I could elaborate more on Crowleys stupid metaphysics, but people are going to believe whatever they want. I'll just reiterate he wasn't teaching the highest initiatic truths.
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
Because part of the process is a radical transformation of the physical body. Anyway, Crowley never even spoke about the higher subtle body. He restricted himself to the 'body of light' straight out of the Golden Dawn, which so practices do not lead to ascension (despite Mark Stavish trying to sell a book claiming it does).


Indefinable, unmapped.
Post automatically merged:


I said predestination, he uses the word destiny, which is the same thing

It is from Magick Without Tears:

'Free-will" is "Destiny"

I could elaborate more on Crowleys stupid metaphysics, but people are going to believe whatever they want. I'll just reiterate he wasn't teaching the highest initiatic truths.
On one hand you say Thelema is unable to lead one to a permanent spiritual body, and on the other hand you cant tell why. It is 'indefinable'
That's problematic for defending your case.

There are more than just the astral body, there is the etheric body, and even the melding and meeting with the HGA, that is perhaps what you mean by 'the subtle higher body' Its the larger part of what you are.
 

Firetree

Neophyte
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
18
Reaction score
36
Ok I wasn't knocking meditation lol It's absolutely crucial


I think this 'harmony with universe' is an illusion. Someone uncovers their 'true will' is to become a gymnast, what they are doing is just seeing their inner tendencies, emotions, etc etc collating and making them think the universe gives a shit what they do lol

I dont see it as being in harmony with the vast extent of the whole Universe . The idea is, the more doing their True Will the more harmony there will be in life ... society .

This is attested by the original teachings .... that when each follows their Khvarenah a new world comes about ; a spiritual world at the end of time called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(Renovation)

- by the way, it is a common concept in many uncorrupted indigenous societies ; I remeber talking to a 'tribal fellow' around the fire one night ; '' I dont get whitefellah .... who am I ... why am I here ... what am I here for ? All big whitefellah questions ! You dont know that ? How you gonna do anything if you dont know that ? You be lost .... make a big mess of everything ! ''

Me ; '' Ummmmm .... yeah ..... have you looked around at things lately ? ''

When you're in a more developed subtle body, outside of the physical body, you're still you. The ego only disappears if someone is completely wiped out and non-existent, ie second death. Immortality is achieved with both a strong ego and activating parts of the human energy complex that systems (such as thelema) are generally not even touching. That's why so few achieve immortalization

You just didnt go deep enough . Its in there .

Also , its not a dictatorial system - no one is saying DO it this way and no other . For example ; yoga is recommended . 'Thelema ', OTO, Gnostic church ( not sure about AA ) recommend yoga , but do not teach yoga .... its up to you to find the school to teach you yoga .



A lot of mysticism is actually fucking around with the physical brain. And a lot is about being overwhelmed by egregores. This is something very , very few understand. There's even a darker element there with beings manipulating humans into more submissive stances.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2025
Messages
210
Reaction score
175
Awards
1
There are more than just the astral body, there is the etheric body, and even the melding and meeting with the HGA, that is perhaps what you mean by 'the subtle higher body' Its the larger part of what you are.
No, that is certainly not what I mean. While I don't source my knowledge from traditional sources and am not endorsing any particular tradition, you can look at things like the Diamond Body or the Rainbow Body for at least some sort of reference
 

Van Horne

Neophyte
Joined
Sep 11, 2025
Messages
40
Reaction score
78
Ein Deutscher! Ich bin froh zum dir kennen zu lernen mit meine schlechte Deutsch :D
Lon DuQuette is a great author, I think his book Enochian Vision Magick is the best and most practical book ever on Enochian magick.
Dankeschön! :giggle:

Thank you for the recommendation, another one for the list!
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
No, that is certainly not what I mean. While I don't source my knowledge from traditional sources and am not endorsing any particular tradition, you can look at things like the Diamond Body or the Rainbow Body for at least some sort of reference
That is all in there too. you just have to Do The Work. its like if you lift enough weights, whether you understand the WHY of it or not, whether you call it a muscle or a growth or 'more meat', you will grow more muscle.

That's why I advocate the A.:.A.:. curriculum.
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
Which Crowley work are referencing?
Every single Liber in 'Gems of the Equinox' for starters.
It's all practices.
It's not just 'dissertations'

Also if you read behind and between the lines in the Holy Books of Thelema, it's all there too, in both a poetic and channeled format.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2025
Messages
210
Reaction score
175
Awards
1
Every single Liber in 'Gems of the Equinox' for starters.
It's all practices.
It's not just 'dissertations'

Also if you read behind and between the lines in the Holy Books of Thelema, it's all there too, in both a poetic and channeled format.
lol I think you're kidding yourself there.
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
lol I think you're kidding yourself there.
With all due respect, I am not trying to be antagonistic, but you haven't really explained yourself in a practical way, just alluding that Thelema is self limiting without really saying how or why, and your attempt at examples were very ...indicative of not trying many of the practises for a long period of time. But that's okay for you, since you are you and I am me.
 

Firetree

Neophyte
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
18
Reaction score
36
I said predestination, he uses the word destiny, which is the same thing

No , YOU claimed '' Crowley says outright 'free will is predestination'. ''

and even if he did , he would be talking about 'free will' and not 'True will'

- do you get it yet ?



It is from Magick Without Tears:

'Free-will" is "Destiny"

Cite it then .


I could elaborate more on Crowleys stupid metaphysics, but people are going to believe whatever they want. I'll just reiterate he wasn't teaching the highest initiatic truths.

It seems stupid if you read snippets of it and dont actually take in what it is actually saying ! You seem to be making typical mistakes about it all .

I will happily retract this and apologise to you if you can show the passage in question .
 

sahgwa

Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2025
Messages
72
Reaction score
100
Awards
1
So Crowley had a higher subtle body did he? Or as it really appears- he didn't even maintain coherence after death.
It's funny you mention that but I was in touch with a Greek woman years ago who said she was in touch with him on a nearly daily basis.
Who knows?
One thing is for sure, the practises are useful and Thelema is growing because it helps people.
 

Firetree

Neophyte
Joined
Jan 13, 2026
Messages
18
Reaction score
36
Was Napoleon doing his true will?

Eh ? :unsure:

How would I know that ?

Was Napoleon a Thelemite ? A Zoroastrian ? maybe he was a ... 'straw clutcher ' , I dont really know .
Post automatically merged:

So Crowley had a higher subtle body did he? Or as it really appears- he didn't even maintain coherence after death.

What are you actually talking about here ?

You talked to him after he died ? !
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2025
Messages
210
Reaction score
175
Awards
1
It's funny you mention that but I was in touch with a Greek woman years ago who said she was in touch with him on a nearly daily basis.
She must have had some amazing new esoteric techniques to share, or insight into future events or something. right?
One thing is for sure, the practises are useful and Thelema is growing because it helps people.
Thelema was supposed to be the religion of the future. Between the various OTOs and the various AAs, you're not even at 15,000 people worldwide. Crowley has been an influential cultural figure, that much is true.

That said, numbers mean nothing, the occult is hidden, and very very few people actually get anywhere .
 
Top